Top 10 Bulls of the post dynasty era

[NZB2323]

I think Stat makes an excellent point. All of the rebuttals have been "well, your opinion is wrong".

I think Rose was more forceful and intimidating, but "talent" wise, I don't know. Rose had a crazy speed/strength/athleticism combo that was unmatched, but as a PG (as far as PG skills go), he wasn't amazing. He also had limited 3 point range.

I mean, we watched a team without Rose make it to the play-offs and even win a series.

Rose was a better version of John Wall. Does anyone think John Wall was "talented" or more on the side of "physically gifted"?

Put current Lavine on the 2012-13 roster (when Rose didn't play). Thibs coaching Kirk, Lavine, Deng, Boozer, Noah with Taj, Butler and Nate off the bench? That team wins at least 55 games and goes deep into the offs.

Do the Bulls make the playoffs in 2010 with Del Negro coaching Kirk, Deng, John Salmons, a rookie Taj Gibson, a 24 year old Noah, and a 33 year old Brad Miller?

Do the Bulls have the best record in the league in 2011 if you swap Lavine for Rose?

[Stratmaster]

I said best talent. I didn't say positive impact. And lets face it, the Bulls haven't had much talent since the dynasty other than the Rose/Noah teams, Zach and Demar. You don't have to be very good to be on the top 10 talent list.

What does talent mean if it doesn't create meaningful results (like efficient shooting, scoring, defense, something else). If you only want to talk about skills without the ability to utilize those skills to create positive impact, there are probably a great number of guys that are far more talented than NBA players but simply lack the athleticism/size to utilize their talents in the NBA.

I'm not sure what you are fishing for. I will put it a different way. I was ranking the 8 players I see as the best basketballk players on the Bulls since the dynasty team, while assessing only their work as a Bull. Other than Rose/Noah/Zach Demar and Butler.... there isn't any stand out talent that I could think of. That is why even though the OP asked for 10 I only gave 8. If players like Deng and Hinrich were playing on the current Bulls in place of, say, Ball and Lavine, I doubt they would even be a consideration.

[Stratmaster]

In the Lavine/Rose debate it is interesting that there are 8 total Rose era Bulls who made the lists, most of them regularly. There are 3 from the Lavine era. Yet some people debating on Rose's behalf keep insinuating Zach Lavine should have somehow carried the Bulls to the playoffs by himself, and acting like Rose did it all on his own. 1 even saying that Rose had it tougher because he didn't have 3 point shooters around him.

How many of those guys were in their prime when Rose was in his prime?

Rose was past his prime when he played with Butler who wasn't in his prime yet.

Noah's prime was 2013-2014, when Rose was injured.

When the Bulls got Pau Gasol Rose was past his prime.

The Bulls won 33 games before getting Rose, and then didn't resign Ben Gordon. He didn't have a stacked roster in 2009 or 2010. And Rose didn't just make the playoffs in 2011. He led the Bulls to the best record in the league and the ECF.

Noah led us to the playoffs while Rose was injured, after Deng was traded, while Butler was a baby, and before we got Gasol. He also led us to a playoff series win while Rose, Hinrich, and Deng were injured and Butler was a baby.

Vuc made the playoffs in 2019 and 2020 without Lavine and without a stacked roster, and has only made the playoffs once with Lavine. Derozan made the playoffs 6 years in a row before joining Lavine and only made it once with him. Both Derozan and Vuc have performed better in the playoffs than Lavine.

You really are doubling down on the notion that the rosters Lavine has played alongside are comparable in overall talent to the ones Rose played alongside? Is that really your stake in the ground? And that Noah was a better basketball player than Lavine? Both of those are ridiculous.

[panthermark]

I think Stat makes an excellent point. All of the rebuttals have been "well, your opinion is wrong".

I think Rose was more forceful and intimidating, but "talent" wise, I don't know. Rose had a crazy speed/strength/athleticism combo that was unmatched, but as a PG (as far as PG skills go), he wasn't amazing. He also had limited 3 point range.

I mean, we watched a team without Rose make it to the play-offs and even win a series.

Rose was a better version of John Wall. Does anyone think John Wall was "talented" or more on the side of "physically gifted"?

Put current Lavine on the 2012-13 roster (when Rose didn't play). Thibs coaching Kirk, Lavine, Deng, Boozer, Noah with Taj, Butler and Nate off the bench? That team wins at least 55 games and goes deep into the offs.

Do the Bulls make the playoffs in 2010 with Del Negro coaching Kirk, Deng, John Salmons, a rookie Taj Gibson, a 24 year old Noah, and a 33 year old Brad Miller?

Do the Bulls have the best record in the league in 2011 if you swap Lavine for Rose?

1. Yes

2. Best record? Probably not. As bad as the SG's were, Dropping Lavine in puts Korver, Brewer and Bogans deep on the bench while making CJ Watson the starting PG, backed up by JLIII.
That is why I used the roster where Rose missed the season and Rip was only here part of it.

[sco]

Mine:
1) Rose
2) Butler
3) Noah
4) Lavine
5) Derozan
6) Deng
7) Brand
8) Gasol
9) Hinrich
10) Gibson

[dougthonus]

I'm not sure what you are fishing for. I will put it a different way. I was ranking the 8 players I see as the best basketballk players on the Bulls since the dynasty team, while assessing only their work as a Bull. Other than Rose/Noah/Zach Demar and Butler.... there isn't any stand out talent that I could think of. That is why even though the OP asked for 10 I only gave 8. If players like Deng and Hinrich were playing on the current Bulls in place of, say, Ball and Lavine, I doubt they would even be a consideration.

Yeah, I guess, let me rephrase it this way.

Vuc has no justification for being on the best 8 basketball player list. For his tenure here, he has been a demonstratively worse player than Javonte Green for the vast majority of it. While theoretically, he can shoot, the reality of his shooting is that is horrendous. While theoretically he can score, the reality is that he's been one of the least efficient scorers on the team.

For the majority of the tenure, the aggregate average is that the Bulls would be better off if he did not touch the ball and if he did not play. This is backed up by almost every metric you could possibly consider. This year is certainly an exception to that, as was his first half season here after the trade, but on the whole he has been nothing short of a disaster on the court and his talents have been theoretical and not actualized.

[NZB2323]

In the Lavine/Rose debate it is interesting that there are 8 total Rose era Bulls who made the lists, most of them regularly. There are 3 from the Lavine era. Yet some people debating on Rose's behalf keep insinuating Zach Lavine should have somehow carried the Bulls to the playoffs by himself, and acting like Rose did it all on his own. 1 even saying that Rose had it tougher because he didn't have 3 point shooters around him.

How many of those guys were in their prime when Rose was in his prime?

Rose was past his prime when he played with Butler who wasn't in his prime yet.

Noah's prime was 2013-2014, when Rose was injured.

When the Bulls got Pau Gasol Rose was past his prime.

The Bulls won 33 games before getting Rose, and then didn't resign Ben Gordon. He didn't have a stacked roster in 2009 or 2010. And Rose didn't just make the playoffs in 2011. He led the Bulls to the best record in the league and the ECF.

Noah led us to the playoffs while Rose was injured, after Deng was traded, while Butler was a baby, and before we got Gasol. He also led us to a playoff series win while Rose, Hinrich, and Deng were injured and Butler was a baby.

Vuc made the playoffs in 2019 and 2020 without Lavine and without a stacked roster, and has only made the playoffs once with Lavine. Derozan made the playoffs 6 years in a row before joining Lavine and only made it once with him. Both Derozan and Vuc have performed better in the playoffs than Lavine.

You really are doubling down on the notion that the rosters Lavine has played alongside are comparable in overall talent to the ones Rose played alongside? Is that really your stake in the ground? And that Noah was a better basketball player than Lavine? Both of those are ridiculous.

2011 is a better supporting cast than Lavine has ever had.

The supporting cast in 2007, 2010, 2014, and 2017 for Deng, Rose, Noah, and Butler weren’t substantially better than what Lavine has had. Vuc carried a team to the playoffs twice and made 2 all-star teams before teaming up with Zach. Derozan made an ECF, made the playoffs 6 years in a row, and was a 2x all-star and an all-NBA player with us. Caruso helped the Lakers win a championship and may help the Thunder have the best record in the league this year. White can score.

The Bulls are 172-236 with Lavine and 206-218 without him since joined the team. We have a better winning percentage in games that he doesn’t play. He has a negative on/off most of his years here. He has not been a good defensive player with us and outside of being an isolation scorer he’s not bringing a lot to the table. And half the time he doesn’t play. Noah, Butler, and Deng led the league in minutes. Rose played a lot of games his first 4 years.

Noah made all NBA 1st team, won DPOTY, and was 4th in MVP voting. Do you have JR Smith ranked higher than Dennis Rodman?

[_txchilibowl_]

This is silly. Lavine is a chucker. Rose was an MVP.

[MikeDC]

I think this is pretty simple. You've got 7 guys who were multiple time all stars as Bulls:

1-7
Rose 3x
Jimmy 3x
DeMar 2x
Pau 2x
Zach 2x
Noah 2x
Deng 2x

I can say it's worth adding in Hinrich and Taj as two good role players who get a career achievement for being on lots of good Bulls teams:
8. Hinrich #3 in career games, #4 in minutes played
9. Taj #10 in career games

That's pretty much it. If you throw in what they did beyond the Bulls, Jimmy, Pau, and DeMar all obviously had the most success, so I think that cements them as being deserving.

[kodo]

I think the 2014 team was the most talented since the MJ years. On paper, this was a lot of talent for us:
- Rose
- Butler
- Pau
- Joakim
Off the bench:
- Mirotic
- Taj
- Hinrich
- Dunleavy
Coach:
- Thibodeau

It's too bad relationships all imploded from every possible angle. I'm surprised the ballboys didn't get into a fight with someone.

[NZB2323]

I think the 2014 team was the most talented since the MJ years. On paper, this was a lot of talent for us:
- Rose
- Butler
- Pau
- Joakim
Off the bench:
- Mirotic
- Taj
- Hinrich
- Dunleavy
Coach:
- Thibodeau

It's too bad relationships all imploded from every possible angle. I'm surprised the ballboys didn't get into a fight with someone.

That’s the 2015 team.

[panthermark]

It is really interesting looking through the different categories.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/leaders_career.html

While I think Rose had a bigger immediate impact (early on), I'm not going to argue a bunch or say it is stupid to put Lavine over Rose.
If Lavine finishes the season here, he will pass Jerry Sloan and Loul Deng on the Bulls all time scoring list....putting him only behind Michael Jordon, Scottie Pippen and Bob Love.
He's 3rd all time in PPG
He's 10th all time in efficiency
He's 1st all time in 3pt'er attempted
He's 1st all time in 3pt'ers made

In his 7.5 years as a Bull, Lavine has averaged:
24.2 PPG
4.7 RPG
4.3 APG
0.9 SPG
0.3 BPG

.474 FG%
.389 3FG%
.836 FT%

Too bad the team has mostly sucked around him (and yes, he has his limitations). The one 1/2 season the Bulls (Lonzo) was fully healthy and he had other talented players (Ball, DD and Vux...plus Caruso), the Bulls had the best record in the East.

[DuckIII]

It is really interesting looking through the different categories.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/leaders_career.html

While I think Rose had a bigger immediate impact (early on), I'm not going to argue a bunch or say it is stupid to put Lavine over Rose.
If Lavine finishes the season here, he will pass Jerry Sloan and Loul Deng on the Bulls all time scoring list....putting him only behind Michael Jordon, Scottie Pippen and Bob Love.
He's 3rd all time in PPG
He's 10th all time in efficiency
He's 1st all time in 3pt'er attempted
He's 1st all time in 3pt'ers made

In his 7.5 years as a Bull, Lavine has averaged:
24.2 PPG
4.7 RPG
4.3 APG
0.9 SPG
0.3 BPG

.474 FG%
.389 3FG%
.836 FT%

Too bad the team has mostly sucked around him (and yes, he has his limitations). The one 1/2 season the Bulls (Lonzo) was fully healthy and he had other talented players (Ball, DD and Vux...plus Caruso), the Bulls had the best record in the East.

If you asked me to rank the top 10 Bulls post-Dynasty based on their entire Bulls career I would absolutely have Lavine over Rose and I share many of the exact same "criticisms" of Rose being expressed here. I always used to say he was the most dominant, and therefore best, PG in the NBA. But that his skills outside of handle/dribble penetration were very average for a NBA point guard. And that his defense was overrated. As a general statement I believe Rose is overrated by Bulls fans. While also being the most dominant PG in the game and a complete freak of nature.

But here is the criteria set by the OP:

I'm mostly talking about how good you think they were as overall players relative to the league at their sustained peak

That's Derrick Rose. By that criteria, its Rose. His peak was a level of dominance that visibly intimidated opposing teams and players. He was an elite superstar level player. He's the only one we've had since the Dynasty. I'm 51. Its not outlandish at all to predict that I will never see a more dominant Bulls player, relative to his peers, than peak Rose even if I live a full life.

[Stratmaster]

I'm not sure what you are fishing for. I will put it a different way. I was ranking the 8 players I see as the best basketballk players on the Bulls since the dynasty team, while assessing only their work as a Bull. Other than Rose/Noah/Zach Demar and Butler.... there isn't any stand out talent that I could think of. That is why even though the OP asked for 10 I only gave 8. If players like Deng and Hinrich were playing on the current Bulls in place of, say, Ball and Lavine, I doubt they would even be a consideration.

Yeah, I guess, let me rephrase it this way.

Vuc has no justification for being on the best 8 basketball player list. For his tenure here, he has been a demonstratively worse player than Javonte Green for the vast majority of it. While theoretically, he can shoot, the reality of his shooting is that is horrendous. While theoretically he can score, the reality is that he's been one of the least efficient scorers on the team.

For the majority of the tenure, the aggregate average is that the Bulls would be better off if he did not touch the ball and if he did not play. This is backed up by almost every metric you could possibly consider. This year is certainly an exception to that, as was his first half season here after the trade, but on the whole he has been nothing short of a disaster on the court and his talents have been theoretical and not actualized.

Well... you can say this season is an anomaly. Or you can say last season was. But he was an all star before. So maybe last season was. One thing is clear. Getting Demar out of the middle has opened things up for both he and Lavine. So maybe that was part of the issue? Or maybe he is just wildly inconsistent?

I have no horse in this race. Like I said. After the first 5 no one else really stands out. You win. Pick a name out of the hat.

[Stratmaster]

This is silly. Lavine is a chucker. Rose was an MVP.

Of course. It's a message board.

The objective facts are silly. Your subjective opinion based on nothing is what is important.

[prolific passer]

Let's be real. If Gordon would have stayed on the bulls for another 5 years. He would have had the three pointers made record on lock.

[NZB2323]

In the Lavine/Rose debate it is interesting that there are 8 total Rose era Bulls who made the lists, most of them regularly. There are 3 from the Lavine era. Yet some people debating on Rose's behalf keep insinuating Zach Lavine should have somehow carried the Bulls to the playoffs by himself, and acting like Rose did it all on his own. 1 even saying that Rose had it tougher because he didn't have 3 point shooters around him.

How many of those guys were in their prime when Rose was in his prime?

Rose was past his prime when he played with Butler who wasn't in his prime yet.

Noah's prime was 2013-2014, when Rose was injured.

When the Bulls got Pau Gasol Rose was past his prime.

The Bulls won 33 games before getting Rose, and then didn't resign Ben Gordon. He didn't have a stacked roster in 2009 or 2010. And Rose didn't just make the playoffs in 2011. He led the Bulls to the best record in the league and the ECF.

Noah led us to the playoffs while Rose was injured, after Deng was traded, while Butler was a baby, and before we got Gasol. He also led us to a playoff series win while Rose, Hinrich, and Deng were injured and Butler was a baby.

Vuc made the playoffs in 2019 and 2020 without Lavine and without a stacked roster, and has only made the playoffs once with Lavine. Derozan made the playoffs 6 years in a row before joining Lavine and only made it once with him. Both Derozan and Vuc have performed better in the playoffs than Lavine.

You really are doubling down on the notion that the rosters Lavine has played alongside are comparable in overall talent to the ones Rose played alongside? Is that really your stake in the ground? And that Noah was a better basketball player than Lavine? Both of those are ridiculous.

What's your argument for Lavine over Butler? He's clearly the better defensive player, who was healthy, had better impact metrics, and is the more winning player.

2017 Butler: 24, 6, and 6, 58.6 TS%, 25.1 PER, 7.3 BPM, 6.6 VORP
2021 Lavine: 27, 5, and 5, 63.4 TS%, 21.5 PER, 4 BPM, 3.1 VORP

Chicago Bulls all-time leaders

VORP
Butler: 6th
Lavine: 10th

WS
Butler: 8th
Lavine: Not Top 10

BPM
Butler: 4th
Lavine: Not Top 10

[GoBlue72391]

On Lavine, he's pretty clearly a uniquely and elitely talented basketball player even by NBA standards. I have him 3rd, but in a completely different tier (all to himself) than not just Rose, but Butler as well. In Butler's case, at his peak performance for the Bulls he was comparable as a scorer to Lavine while also being one of the very best defensive wings in the NBA. Its not really much of a contest when you consider the entirety of what winning players do to, well, win.

The Rose argument is kinda easy to deal with. Strat truly is the only person who would take the position that the best post-Dynasty Bull has been Lavine. Why debate that? I love Lavine, but its a preposterous premise and the cherry-picked arguments required to support it simply further confirm the counterpoint.

Teams won't even trade for Lavine. Teams were terrified of Rose and would have gladly given kingmaker trade packages to get him.

Yeah, gotta know when to pick your battles (as I drag myself into it)

[GoBlue72391]

I told you his impact metrics during his MVP and subsequent season dwarf LaVine's

You ignored it

But we won't see eye to eye if you think LaVine is the most talented Bulls player post MJ

That's an egregious stance to take

I gave you 2 impact stats. I gave you the scoring and efficiency numbers. You have given nothing but your opinion. You "told me" his impact stats dwarf Lavines? You haven't given a single one.

Again. Name something Rose did better than Lavine does.

Defense, passing, penetration, winning playoff games.

I have Noah ahead of Lavine as well.

Lavine’s playoff stats with the Bulls are 19, 6, and 5, 55.3 TS%, 13.8 PER.

Rose in 2011 was 27, 8, and 4, 49.9 TS%, 22.9 PER.

Butler in 2015 was 23, 6, and 3, 56.2 TS.%, 20.8 PER.

Noah, Deng, Gasol, Hinrich, and Ben Gordon have accomplished more for the Bulls in the playoffs than Zach Lavine ever has. I’m sure that Lavine could beat them in a skills competition, but when it comes to the NBA playoffs, these guys have done more.

Neither was very good on defense. I remember when Rose entered the league he had the reputation of being a good defender, but that pretty quickly turned out to be mostly untrue. Zach's a better on-ball defender but I don't recall Rose having as many help/rotation breakdowns, so I'd call it a draw or give the slight nod to Zach for defense.

I've always been a big Zach guy and honestly Rose soured on me after that whole not playing even when he was cleared fiasco (though it's all water under the bridge now), but Rose is easily and by far the best post-Jordan Bull and it's not even up for debate. Rose was like my 4th favorite player on those teams after Deng, Noah, and Taj so it's not like I'm a biased Rose supremacist.

[GoBlue72391]

I gave you 2 impact stats. I gave you the scoring and efficiency numbers. You have given nothing but your opinion. You "told me" his impact stats dwarf Lavines? You haven't given a single one.

Again. Name something Rose did better than Lavine does.

Defense, passing, penetration, winning playoff games.

I have Noah ahead of Lavine as well.

Lavine’s playoff stats with the Bulls are 19, 6, and 5, 55.3 TS%, 13.8 PER.

Rose in 2011 was 27, 8, and 4, 49.9 TS%, 22.9 PER.

Butler in 2015 was 23, 6, and 3, 56.2 TS.%, 20.8 PER.

Noah, Deng, Gasol, Hinrich, and Ben Gordon have accomplished more for the Bulls in the playoffs than Zach Lavine ever has. I’m sure that Lavine could beat them in a skills competition, but when it comes to the NBA playoffs, these guys have done more.

Playoff wins wasn't the topic. It was talent. You have to have a good team to get to the playoffs.

So Zach has played for bad teams? You're always saying every season how we're actually better than most people think and how we're most likely going to make the playoffs even though we never do.