Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[Scase]

[
That's how I see it as well, I really like Scottie and I'm high on him overall, but I still think we need to be realistic with what we've got. He's by no means someone I think we should be looking to move on from, he has an exceptional skill set that is not easily found in the NBA, but scoring isn't one of those skills.

I'm very happy to have him. His rebounding and D are nice. He's showing some improvement in a bunch of areas and he looks like a strong secondary playmaker. Actually, his D is more than nice, but you know what I mean. He contributes a lot, and we ask more than he's capable of giving at this time, but he keeps trying.

We're at the stage of his career where I agree, we need to lean into deploying him more towards his strengths.

As much as I would love it to be, I am not going to put money on this years 10-16 split of 55% being real, that would be the second highest of KDs career and highest of DDs by like 4%. That's coming down.

Yeah, I think that's probably a bit of a pipe dream outlier at this point, but if nothing else, it's a marker of improvement we can look to for now.

He's certainly worth keeping, but in general, when someone is worth it as a focal scorer, you see it sooner, even in the age of younger starts. Even someone like Shai, I mean no one really saw 30 ppg from when he was a Clipper, but he started his career as an 80% FT shooter with a viable 3 and a very clear and obviously-strong mid-range game. Tatum was a 13.9 ppg rookie, and while he isn't my favorite option because he's more a tier-3 kind of scorer, he was still an 82.6% FT shooter as a rook with a VERY strong 3, had a bit of a handle, had some post game and some mid-range play he's since gone away from. And honestly, as much as I complain about him, I only do so in context of him not being a tier-1 player, a superstar. He's a fantastic player overall and any team would be lucky to have him. I could go on, but the point is there: you either see elite skills and/or you see elite tools and you project forward.... or you sigh, and realize that you don't have an ATG monster in the making, and you wonder what the ceiling will be. Scottie doesn't have the speed, the jumper or the already-developed handle to become the guy we all know we need... but he could still be a hella-effective player for us. He IS pretty good for us, when we step away from the scoring discussion, after all. No sense pissing that away unless we get something very much worthwhile in return, which isn't likely.

My thought process is, that the FO is going to keep pushing him down the road they have been, until we find that natural scorer, as opposed to see what we have and working within those restrictions. One of those can lead to terrible development and ruining the player long term, so hopefully this increased focus on his MR lately is a good sign of things to come, and not just a flash in the pan of their development.

Scottie looks to have all the makings of an elite 2 way 2nd option, easily a tier above Siakam on that chip team, we just have to make sure to treat him that way, and not try to force this 1a/b development path on him.

And I know exactly what you mean about his defence, he is playing arguably above what we should realistically be asking of him, and he's doing a great job of it. That might even signal that it's another point of focus for his development over this pipe dream of being a PG or some knock down 3pt shooter.

If by some off chance we end up getting Flagg, we would basically have our defensive woes for the next 7-10 years disappear. Having the two of them roaming passing lanes and being help defenders would be elite level defence, so much so that we could skate by on a C that is only an average defender, and possibly easily absorb worse defenders like IQ/GD.

No matter how I look at this team though, I always see RJ as the odd man out. That could definitely be some bias on my end, but that bias is heavily influenced by his game, which I just can't see fitting. So fingers crossed, we end up with Flagg, or as a consolation Harper/Johnson/Edgecombe.

I think we can pivot into a legit team, but this draft is probably the most important thing we need to get right, since the chip.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I mean elite second options usually are first options on their first teams.

[ConSarnit]

MR is the most realistic option for him to actually achieve, I don't think anyone is confused on whether or not he will be a 1st option, he is quite obviously a 2nd/3rd option. So him being a 3 level scorer is not only not a realistic goal, but it's not even one we need to aim for.

That's about where I am sitting on him in year 4 with what we've seen to date. There are some skills which are fairly difficult to develop once you've already hit the NBA, and that's basically what he needs to improve as a scorer. Most guys who get better without having a huge foundation/elite tools to work with from the start end up doing so by reducing usage and focusing on assisted buckets. Slashing off-ball, corner 3s, lots of catch-and-shoot, transition, really reducing the workload they need to do in order to get the shot while lowering overall degree of difficulty. That is NOT what Scottie's trying to do, and that's a huge part of why progress has been... fitful.

If, however, we pivot to the idea that he is more a 2nd/3rd option type of player, then we can look forward to increasing passing support, reduced volume, being able to cherry pick his spots and have more efficient options like transition and off-ball cuts and such making up a higher proportion of his overall game. So when his FT% normalizes and if he re-establishes even a mediocre to league-average 3, then we should be in very good shape with him in such a role.

Can he actually do any of these supplemental things?

His corner 3p% by year (starting with rookie season): 35%, 31%, 33%, 29%

His transition percentile (starting with rookie season): 40th, 25th, 29th, 44th

His catch and shoot 3p% by year (starting with rookie season): 29%, 30%, 38%, 31%

He's a good cutter but it's incredibly hard to do that on any volume. Down to a man every player who gets > 2fga per game on cuts is a center.

Guys who cannot shoot lose a lot of value the further down the pecking order they go (unless they are a C). Given the path he is on Barnes is likely going to need to be paired with a spacing C to get maximum value out of his skillset. He could have value as a roll-man given his finishing, passing and above average ball handling (for his position). Even then, his screening ability leaves much to be desired, at least based on the eye test. Barnes really needs to improve either his shooting or foul drawing to be a key cog in an offense, regardless of what number option he is.

[YogurtProducer]

MR is the most realistic option for him to actually achieve, I don't think anyone is confused on whether or not he will be a 1st option, he is quite obviously a 2nd/3rd option. So him being a 3 level scorer is not only not a realistic goal, but it's not even one we need to aim for.

That's about where I am sitting on him in year 4 with what we've seen to date. There are some skills which are fairly difficult to develop once you've already hit the NBA, and that's basically what he needs to improve as a scorer. Most guys who get better without having a huge foundation/elite tools to work with from the start end up doing so by reducing usage and focusing on assisted buckets. Slashing off-ball, corner 3s, lots of catch-and-shoot, transition, really reducing the workload they need to do in order to get the shot while lowering overall degree of difficulty. That is NOT what Scottie's trying to do, and that's a huge part of why progress has been... fitful.

If, however, we pivot to the idea that he is more a 2nd/3rd option type of player, then we can look forward to increasing passing support, reduced volume, being able to cherry pick his spots and have more efficient options like transition and off-ball cuts and such making up a higher proportion of his overall game. So when his FT% normalizes and if he re-establishes even a mediocre to league-average 3, then we should be in very good shape with him in such a role.

Can he actually do any of these supplemental things?

His corner 3p% by year (starting with rookie season): 35%, 31%, 33%, 29%

His transition percentile (starting with rookie season): 40th, 25th, 29th, 44th

His catch and shoot 3p% by year (starting with rookie season): 29%, 30%, 38%, 31%

He's a good cutter but it's incredibly hard to do that on any volume. Down to a man every player who gets > 2fga per game on cuts is a center.

Guys who cannot shoot lose a lot of value the further down the pecking order they go (unless they are a C). Given the path he is on Barnes is likely going to need to be paired with a spacing C to get maximum value out of his skillset. He could have value as a roll-man given his finishing, passing and above average ball handling (for his position). Even then, his screening ability leaves much to be desired, at least based on the eye test. Barnes really needs to improve either his shooting or foul drawing to be a key cog in an offense, regardless of what number option he is.

You bringing up the screening thing reminds me of how Lowry was weirdly good at it for a guy his size. We ran a lot of 1/2 PnR's with him to get mismatches.

That is why I dont love the Lowry comparisons. Barnes doesn't do a lot of the "little things" at a good level, let alone an elite one like Lowry (2 for 1's, defensive positioning, screening, general IQ, etc.)

[ConSarnit]

That's about where I am sitting on him in year 4 with what we've seen to date. There are some skills which are fairly difficult to develop once you've already hit the NBA, and that's basically what he needs to improve as a scorer. Most guys who get better without having a huge foundation/elite tools to work with from the start end up doing so by reducing usage and focusing on assisted buckets. Slashing off-ball, corner 3s, lots of catch-and-shoot, transition, really reducing the workload they need to do in order to get the shot while lowering overall degree of difficulty. That is NOT what Scottie's trying to do, and that's a huge part of why progress has been... fitful.

If, however, we pivot to the idea that he is more a 2nd/3rd option type of player, then we can look forward to increasing passing support, reduced volume, being able to cherry pick his spots and have more efficient options like transition and off-ball cuts and such making up a higher proportion of his overall game. So when his FT% normalizes and if he re-establishes even a mediocre to league-average 3, then we should be in very good shape with him in such a role.

Can he actually do any of these supplemental things?

His corner 3p% by year (starting with rookie season): 35%, 31%, 33%, 29%

His transition percentile (starting with rookie season): 40th, 25th, 29th, 44th

His catch and shoot 3p% by year (starting with rookie season): 29%, 30%, 38%, 31%

He's a good cutter but it's incredibly hard to do that on any volume. Down to a man every player who gets > 2fga per game on cuts is a center.

Guys who cannot shoot lose a lot of value the further down the pecking order they go (unless they are a C). Given the path he is on Barnes is likely going to need to be paired with a spacing C to get maximum value out of his skillset. He could have value as a roll-man given his finishing, passing and above average ball handling (for his position). Even then, his screening ability leaves much to be desired, at least based on the eye test. Barnes really needs to improve either his shooting or foul drawing to be a key cog in an offense, regardless of what number option he is.

You bringing up the screening thing reminds me of how Lowry was weirdly good at it for a guy his size. We ran a lot of 1/2 PnR's with him to get mismatches.

That is why I dont love the Lowry comparisons. Barnes doesn't do a lot of the "little things" at a good level, let alone an elite one like Lowry (2 for 1's, defensive positioning, screening, general IQ, etc.)

Maybe screening can be learned. I don't know enough to say.

The Lowry comp doesn't make sense to me either. Since (Raptors) day 1, Lowry was a very good 3pt shooter. Lowry's skillset allowed him to play almost any on or off ball role. If Barnes were a 3rd option I'm not sure how much value that really has to most teams.

[tsherkin]

Can he actually do any of these supplemental things?

His corner 3p% by year (starting with rookie season): 35%, 31%, 33%, 29%

I care less about that, but we'll see what happens if we actually USE him in the corner. His proportion of shots has been dropping annually, so it's tough to evaluate. More, though, I'd rather see him being used where he's good: at the elbow and on the block.

His transition percentile (starting with rookie season): 40th, 25th, 29th, 44th

We'll see if we can get him going. He's handling it a lot in transition as we play at him running the offense; if he was able to get out on the break and get behind the defense, who knows what might happen?

I agree that he needs to improve his shooting, but it's somewhat implicit in all this that he keeps trying to work that to a reasonable level. Maybe that leaves him more a 3rd or 4th option, providing relevant talent to be ahead of him, who knows?

You bringing up the screening thing reminds me of how Lowry was weirdly good at it for a guy his size. We ran a lot of 1/2 PnR's with him to get mismatches.

That is why I dont love the Lowry comparisons. Barnes doesn't do a lot of the "little things" at a good level, let alone an elite one like Lowry (2 for 1's, defensive positioning, screening, general IQ, etc.)

I miss Lowry, man. He was pure hustle. Absolutely no mid-range game at all, full rim-or-3, but he screened, he defended, he made hustle plays. He was a pretty good playmaker. Quick little bastard, but also stocky and strong. He was very capable in a lot of ways.

[Vampirate]

This is where I differ from Scase, he said he's willing to go through short term pains on the midrange, but apparently not on the 3.

I want Barnes to be a threat everywhere.

Ultimately Barnes needs a go to move in both areas (mid rage and 3), and can't be locked to an x amount of 3s. I just wish he knew when it's time to stop shooting the 3s like when he went 2-12 from 3 in the Pels game.

Barnes has statistically gotten better at the pull up 3 but it's still nowhere near good, but it's not god awful as it was last year so that's progress.

Anyways since he's good at 3-10 feet, it's likely better that him being good at 10-16ft is more sustainable.

Just keep expanding the range inside the arc and outside the arc.

There is not a lot of precedent for a guy like Barnes becoming a shooting threat.

Midrange: the elite midrange guys (Durant, Steph, Kyrie) are all great free throw shooters. Barnes probably has the worst career FT% of anyone who would attempt to make a living in the midrange. Looking at his shot breakdown he's doing well with floaters and turn around jumpers in the midrange. I don't know if this suggests he'll ever be able to fully scale up considering he can't really just pull-up into a midranger in the way Kawhi or Durant does.

Free Throw Rate: he's really not adept at drawing free throws. Demar's and Kawhi's worst FTr years are still better than Barnes best. Demar draws free throws at a significantly higher rate than Barnes and has been doing so since day 1.

As far as trying to make someone an all-around shooter goes Barnes is probably the worst FT shooter of anyone who has become "good". His free throw rate is only matched by guys who are really good 3pt shooters.

He has a solid "go-to" move this year in the form of a turn around midrange jumper, which he hits at 50%. For a player with his usage his FTr is sort of bad and his 3pt shooting has been very bad outside of a 2 month hot streak last year.

Honestly, it's not looking great when trying to figure out how Barnes is going to score efficiently in a 1st option on-ball type role. Middling FTr and bad 3pt shooting is not a recipe for a good scorer. His ideal scoring role might end up being a 2nd/3rd-ish option where he isn't asked to create for himself as much. Barnes being good in the midrange is probably the worst "best" outcome. 3pt shooting or getting to the line would be much more valuable to his game. He needs to become competent at one or the other and he's not off to a good start.

MR is the most realistic option for him to actually achieve, I don't think anyone is confused on whether or not he will be a 1st option, he is quite obviously a 2nd/3rd option. So him being a 3 level scorer is not only not a realistic goal, but it's not even one we need to aim for.

Being a true 3p threat, or having a high FTr are better than just a MR game for sure, but one of those is (3p) just probably never gonna happen, while FTr can definitely be worked on, especially if he is primarily operating from the MR.

For a guy that doesn't have an innate or refined scoring ability, I think we need to double down on what he already shows competency in, as opposed to trying to teach him something that he's not even at a "beginner" level in his 4th year.

One of the biggest reasons why I don't want him to lower his 3Pr to 1 a game is a just want him to avoid the Bam architype.

He's a player that has only recently just been asked to shoot the 3, averaging 0.4 threes throughout his career, 2.5 this year.

The player I want Barnes to closely emulate is Siakam, who was a much worse shooter than Barnes in his early years. Credit to Casey for getting Siakam past his initial limiting barrier. If that's possible, then who knows.

What we need is for Barnes to focus solely on his catch and shoot. His pull up 3s has improved (he was markedly worse last year) but his catch and shoot last year was much much better.

I want Barnes to be good at the mid range, and respectable at the 3. He straight up can't do that if he's going to be limited to 1 3P a game.

Something to think about is as soon Siakam was traded, Barnes 3P% fell off a cliff. It's possible it rises again with a player just better offensively than him.

There's a positive here. He's yet to have a good month from 3 this year, even in his rookie year there was a month where he shot over 35%.

Again his biggest problem is he either takes too many (0/8 on 15 shots) or too little (0/1 on 12 shots).

As a shooter you have to accept that the 1-10 games from 3 will happen, and in that case, do you have something else to get you the points when your 3 is off?

[tsherkin]

[
One of the biggest reasons why I don't want him to lower his 3Pr to 1 a game is a just want him to avoid the Bam architype.

I don't think he has anything like the Bam archetype going on. And I agree that we can't afford to have him averaging too few 3s. We need him to be at least NEAR league-average from there, so that he's any kind of credible threat. At even 34-35%, he becomes ENOUGH of an issue that the D has to pay some attention, which changes how the offense runs inside the arc beneath him.

There's a positive here. He's yet to have a good month from 3 this year, even in his rookie year there was a month where he shot over 35%.

And without a eye injury, no less. He's also been much worse than usual from 16+ feet in general.

As a shooter you have to accept that the 1-10 games from 3 will happen, and in that case, do you have something else to get you the points when your 3 is off?

That is also true. At 36%, which is a reasonable percentage, you're gonna have more crappy games than good ones. This is just basic math, so we all have to internalize that, for sure.

[ConSarnit]

There is not a lot of precedent for a guy like Barnes becoming a shooting threat.

Midrange: the elite midrange guys (Durant, Steph, Kyrie) are all great free throw shooters. Barnes probably has the worst career FT% of anyone who would attempt to make a living in the midrange. Looking at his shot breakdown he's doing well with floaters and turn around jumpers in the midrange. I don't know if this suggests he'll ever be able to fully scale up considering he can't really just pull-up into a midranger in the way Kawhi or Durant does.

Free Throw Rate: he's really not adept at drawing free throws. Demar's and Kawhi's worst FTr years are still better than Barnes best. Demar draws free throws at a significantly higher rate than Barnes and has been doing so since day 1.

As far as trying to make someone an all-around shooter goes Barnes is probably the worst FT shooter of anyone who has become "good". His free throw rate is only matched by guys who are really good 3pt shooters.

He has a solid "go-to" move this year in the form of a turn around midrange jumper, which he hits at 50%. For a player with his usage his FTr is sort of bad and his 3pt shooting has been very bad outside of a 2 month hot streak last year.

Honestly, it's not looking great when trying to figure out how Barnes is going to score efficiently in a 1st option on-ball type role. Middling FTr and bad 3pt shooting is not a recipe for a good scorer. His ideal scoring role might end up being a 2nd/3rd-ish option where he isn't asked to create for himself as much. Barnes being good in the midrange is probably the worst "best" outcome. 3pt shooting or getting to the line would be much more valuable to his game. He needs to become competent at one or the other and he's not off to a good start.

MR is the most realistic option for him to actually achieve, I don't think anyone is confused on whether or not he will be a 1st option, he is quite obviously a 2nd/3rd option. So him being a 3 level scorer is not only not a realistic goal, but it's not even one we need to aim for.

Being a true 3p threat, or having a high FTr are better than just a MR game for sure, but one of those is (3p) just probably never gonna happen, while FTr can definitely be worked on, especially if he is primarily operating from the MR.

For a guy that doesn't have an innate or refined scoring ability, I think we need to double down on what he already shows competency in, as opposed to trying to teach him something that he's not even at a "beginner" level in his 4th year.

One of the biggest reasons why I don't want him to lower his 3Pr to 1 a game is a just want him to avoid the Bam architype.

He's a player that has only recently just been asked to shoot the 3, averaging 0.4 threes throughout his career, 2.5 this year.

The player I want Barnes to closely emulate is Siakam, who was a much worse shooter than Barnes in his early years. Credit to Casey for getting Siakam past his initial limiting barrier. If that's possible, then who knows.

What we need is for Barnes to focus solely on his catch and shoot. His pull up 3s has improved (he was markedly worse last year) but his catch and shoot last year was much much better.

I want Barnes to be good at the mid range, and respectable at the 3. He straight up can't do that if he's going to be limited to 1 3P a game.

Something to think about is as soon Siakam was traded, Barnes 3P% fell off a cliff. It's possible it rises again with a player just better offensively than him.

There's a positive here. He's yet to have a good month from 3 this year, even in his rookie year there was a month where he shot over 35%.

Again his biggest problem is he either takes too many (0/8 on 15 shots) or too little (0/1 on 12 shots).

As a shooter you have to accept that the 1-10 games from 3 will happen, and in that case, do you have something else to get you the points when your 3 is off?

That type of volume of 3pt shooting is not helpful. To be an effective 3pt shooter you need volume + efficiency. There is almost no functional difference between shooting 1 3pa or 0 3pa. If he's shooting 35% from 3 on 1 attempt that's pretty much the same outcome as Poeltl not shooting at all. When your shooting volume is that low teams will exploit that because the 0.35 of a 3 you hit per game is never going to be able to make up for the gap that will be caused by the other team being able to completely pack the paint whenever Barnes is behind the 3pt line. If teams did not think Barnes would shoot + Poeltl being a non-shooter that would likely destroy our offense. If teams were able to drop 2 bigs against us at all times we would have an incredibly difficult time scoring. Barnes needs to be able to hit 35% on 4-5 attempts per game.

You should also post his pull-up 3pt% as I've seen you mention it before. It's currently 25%, which is bottom 10th percentile number for starters. He only improved because it was so bad previously that it is almost impossible to be worse. There is also an issue that his C&S numbers from last year were skewed from unsustainable early season shooting. Post Jan 1 of last year he was back to shooting 31% on C&S 3's, which is right in line with his career average. Barnes shooting potential seems to be based off of 2 months of good shooting and that is getting further and further in the rear view mirror (though I will admit that does at least imply some potential for improvement is there).

[Vampirate]

[
One of the biggest reasons why I don't want him to lower his 3Pr to 1 a game is a just want him to avoid the Bam architype.

I don't think he has anything like the Bam archetype going on. And I agree that we can't afford to have him averaging too few 3s. We need him to be at least NEAR league-average from there, so that he's any kind of credible threat. At even 34-35%, he becomes ENOUGH of an issue that the D has to pay some attention, which changes how the offense runs inside the arc beneath him.

There's a positive here. He's yet to have a good month from 3 this year, even in his rookie year there was a month where he shot over 35%.

And without a eye injury, no less. He's also been much worse than usual from 16+ feet in general.

As a shooter you have to accept that the 1-10 games from 3 will happen, and in that case, do you have something else to get you the points when your 3 is off?

That is also true. At 36%, which is a reasonable percentage, you're gonna have more crappy games than good ones. This is just basic math, so we all have to internalize that, for sure.

Ultimately he needs to find a hot zone from 3.

Top of the key he's at 35-36% this year, corner left he's at 36-37% (on not enough volume probably) (12.5% total shots)

One of my issues with him is 3P distribution.

ABT right (19% of his total 3s) 18.2% this year, 26.3% career

ABT Left (41.9% of his total 3s) 27.7% this year, 31.4% career, 36.7% last year Regression here might happen.

The majority of his mid ranges are from the left side of the court, so maybe more from that corner would help.

The top of the key appears to be his best zone overall 37.7% with both last year and this year combined, so maybe for pull up 3s, just do step backs there instead of going to ATB left or right where he's worse. (just going with percentages here)

[tsherkin]

Ultimately he needs to find a hot zone from 3.

Top of the key he's at 35-36% this year, corner left he's at 36-37% (on not enough volume probably) (12.5% total shots)

That would be nice, yes. He needs to find a competitive spot, for sure. It can be less ATB if we start getting him off-ball and smashing catch-and-shoots in the corner. Even at below-average percentages from those spots, it'd still be better than what he's showing above the break, if only for now.

The top of the key appears to be his best zone overall 37.7% with both last year and this year combined, so maybe for pull up 3s, just do step backs there instead of going to ATB left or right where he's worse. (just going with percentages here)

That makes a lot of sense, yes.

[Tha Cynic]

It's all just going to depend on how much his mid range is feared.

Are defenses going to Preemptively jump to block it? There was evidence of this in the Cavs game where he got both Allen and wade out of the paint following him.

Being mainly mid range only can work, but he'd have to be the best of the best with it.

He'd basically have to both be exceedingly good at it and have no conscious shooting it at will.

An example is Curry with the 3, he can go 1-15 from 3 but defenses are just going to fear him if he ever heats up. His impact goes beyond his stats in a single game.

The more defenses fear a shot, the more they bite on it, scheme for it.

Ultimately I think he needs to add a step back jumper in both the 3 and the mid range. He's just with a fadeaway but i'd like him to see the court better, not so much back behind the basket.


The other thing is he needs to speed up the time he gets into his shots.

Agree with most of this but really I can't see a productive offense this way. The example is Curry, the best shooter of all time, shooting a 3. If Scottie was taking 15 midrange 2s in any game we'd be in trouble, no? I know someone posted some propaganda comparing Scottie to SGA's percentages earlier, but SGA has a large advantage drawing fouls. I think he might be around 2X the FTAs per 36. And a lot of that is just... ballhandling excellence.

Well like I said, in order for Barnes to abandon the 3 for the midrange, he needs to be HoF good from there.

If he ever gets feared, he'll draw FTs because defenses will react differently to him.

The real hope is he keeps expanding his mid range to the 16-3P area which will hopefully help his 3P shooting.

We essentially need him to be a Kawhi esque.

Not saying this will happen, but it's what we need until we get someone that everyone can see is better, including himself.

Flat out, he needs to draw more foul. We want him to he dominant and both midrange and getting to the line. I do think the Raptors get screwed a lot and it feels like this has deterred Scottie from going more aggressive inside, along with the two injuries. I think Masai has to do something about some of these lack of calls because it's going to start impacting how players play here.

Recently Scottie hasn't even tried to draw fouls inside. We need a combination of his trying to attack aggressively and refs actually give us calls when we do. A lot of that is just Scottie needs to start going downhill with more force and then letting our executives take care of the rest.

[Nature]

The way I see it, some of you are setting yourselves up for disappointment if you think he's an elite 2nd option on a championship team. I don't see him succeeding in that role whatsoever.

If he's elite at anything it's being a "glue guy". He could start on a championship team (why I think he's still a keeper) but he's a 3rd option at best and most likely a 4th option.

He's much more of a Derrick White than a Jaylen Brown. Much more of an Aaron Gordon than a Jamal Murray. Much more of a Draymond than Klay etc...

[Vampirate]

Agree with most of this but really I can't see a productive offense this way. The example is Curry, the best shooter of all time, shooting a 3. If Scottie was taking 15 midrange 2s in any game we'd be in trouble, no? I know someone posted some propaganda comparing Scottie to SGA's percentages earlier, but SGA has a large advantage drawing fouls. I think he might be around 2X the FTAs per 36. And a lot of that is just... ballhandling excellence.

Well like I said, in order for Barnes to abandon the 3 for the midrange, he needs to be HoF good from there.

If he ever gets feared, he'll draw FTs because defenses will react differently to him.

The real hope is he keeps expanding his mid range to the 16-3P area which will hopefully help his 3P shooting.

We essentially need him to be a Kawhi esque.

Not saying this will happen, but it's what we need until we get someone that everyone can see is better, including himself.

Flat out, he needs to draw more foul. We want him to he dominant and both midrange and getting to the line. I do think the Raptors get screwed a lot and it feels like this has deterred Scottie from going more aggressive inside, along with the two injuries. I think Masai has to do something about some of these lack of calls because it's going to start impacting how players play here.

Recently Scottie hasn't even tried to draw fouls inside. We need a combination of his trying to attack aggressively and refs actually give us calls when we do. A lot of that is just Scottie needs to start going downhill with more force and then letting our executives take care of the rest.

I think part of it's on Barnes as well.

I think he takes too long to get into his shots personally.

Imo what he needs to work on is a drive and stop game. KD can pull up the middy out of thin air. Basically the less dribbles Barnes takes to get to the mid range the better and this is going to be handle dependant. He needs to drive and stop on a dime, a huge ask tbh, but he needs it.

A step back game would work wonders for him.

And it's possible because he's pulled it off. (can't remember which team) but seriously add it in both the mid range and the 3 point shot (where he's good at)

[Vampirate]

You should also post his pull-up 3pt% as I've seen you mention it before. It's currently 25%, which is bottom 10th percentile number for starters. He only improved because it was so bad previously that it is almost impossible to be worse. There is also an issue that his C&S numbers from last year were skewed from unsustainable early season shooting. Post Jan 1 of last year he was back to shooting 31% on C&S 3's, which is right in line with his career average. Barnes shooting potential seems to be based off of 2 months of good shooting and that is getting further and further in the rear view mirror (though I will admit that does at least imply some potential for improvement is there).

I'll put up both his 3s and 2s. Barnes pull up jumpshots throughout the years:

2021

2s 42.1% on 1.9 FGA
3s 31.3% on 0.4 FGA

2022

2s 31.8% on 2.2 FGA
3s 21.4% on 0.7 FGA

2023

2s 40% on 2 FGA
3s 17.5% on 1.1 FGA

2024

2s 48.8% on 2.1 FGA
3s 25.5% on 1.8 FGA


On pull ups in general he's been ass except this year (I think he has potential with the pull up 3, but only really at the top of the key and the corners)

[TheGeneral99]

The way I see it, some of you are setting yourselves up for disappointment if you think he's an elite 2nd option on a championship team. I don't see him succeeding in that role whatsoever.

If he's elite at anything it's being a "glue guy". He could start on a championship team (why I think he's still a keeper) but he's a 3rd option at best and most likely a 4th option.

He's much more of a Derrick White than a Jaylen Brown. Much more of an Aaron Gordon than a Jamal Murray. Much more of a Draymond than Klay etc...

It's hard to tell if he can be a 2nd option on a championship team but I think you are selling him short.

Aaron Gordon as a main dude in Orlando never ever came close to Scottie's production here. In fact, Scottie in his rookie year was arguably already better than Aaron Gordon.

Prime Scottie will be a player that will average a near triple double while giving you at least 20 a game. He's already a 20, 8 and 6 player, which puts him in very rare company.

The question is can he refine his mid-range isolation game and become a more consistent outside shooter...that will be the difference between him because a #3 option on a contender of a #1 or #2 franchise player or elite 2nd option.

[GoRapstheoriginal]

Much better tonight!

[HumbleRen]

His process looked much more deliberate and comfortable tonight but he’s really have to stop settling for those near rim jump shots. Just take it hard to the rim man, missed like 5 straight shots from there in the 4th when he could of just taken it hard to the rim.

[PushDaRock]

I mean elite second options usually are first options on their first teams.

I've been saying this for a while. It's not typical that a 20 ppg scorer on a really bad team is able to be a 20 ppg scorer on a contender, I can't even think of an example of anyone who has done that.

[sbsat]

We all agree this man is no primary scorer right?