2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[CobraCommander]

Jokic is presently:
3rd in points per game
3rd in rebounds per game
2nd in assists per game
4th in steals per game
1st in 3 point FG%
1st in PER
1st in WS/48
1st in VORP
1st in BPM

If he finishes 1st in PER, VORP, WS/48, and BPM it will be the fifth consecutive season he's led the NBA in all four of those categories. Only Jordan and LeBron have ever done that.

I’m team Jokic until someone solidly beats him. It would be good to have someone put on a historical pedestal from the post LBJ and Curry era. Jokic wins one more and he solidified as a top 10 all time because he is that guy ! There are 5 guys with 4 or more MVPs and they all top ten- wilt, Russell, MJ, LBJ and KAJ....you get 4 it’s a foregone conclusion you top 10

[iggymcfrack]

I support the 65 games thing but it will def be weird to have an ALL NBA team with no Luka this year.

Feel bad for Franz and Paolo too, they have been incredible but can't make All NBA either.

And obviously the MVP from a couple years ago, Mr. Embiid, is long out of contention. I keep forgetting he's still around, somewhere.

It’s weird But it’s fair right ?

Luka won scoring title last year but Embiid scored more ppg but only played 39 games and You can’t win the scoring title with 39 games like Embiid last year. The cut off for scoring is 58? Year end awards is 65.

This is the punishment for load management hurting the product.

Injury really determines all nba pretty much every year in some way

I definitely think the hard cutoff of 65 games is bull. Haliburton admitted that he rushed back from his hamstring injury to make the cutoff and he hasn't been the same since. And what if one player's been much better in 64 games than another has in 65? He just gets the spot because of a random number?

With that said, I don't think Luka was gonna deserve all-NBA this year anyway. He's already missed 15 games and was going to miss probably like 12 or 13 more before returning? Then if he just misses another 5 or 6 the rest of the way, that adds up to 33 games missed and 49 played. He hasn't been anywhere near dominant enough this year to deserve all-NBA not even playing 50 games.

[RB34]

The Pistons now have more wins than the Bucks and Cade is averaging 24/6/9. Just sayin…

[Johnny Firpo]

The Pistons now have more wins than the Bucks and Cade is averaging 24/6/9. Just sayin…

Love Cade, and he could be and likely will be a really good player in this league, but obviously those are not MVP numbers in today's NBA.

[RB34]

The Pistons now have more wins than the Bucks and Cade is averaging 24/6/9. Just sayin…

Love Cade, and he could be and likely will be a really good player in this league, but obviously those are not MVP numbers in today's NBA.

For reference, Anthony Edwards and Jalen Brunson are both on the poll.

Edwards - 25/5/4
Brunson - 25/3/7

[Johnny Firpo]

The Pistons now have more wins than the Bucks and Cade is averaging 24/6/9. Just sayin…

Love Cade, and he could be and likely will be a really good player in this league, but obviously those are not MVP numbers in today's NBA.

For reference, Anthony Edwards and Jalen Brunson are both on the poll.

Edwards - 25/5/4
Brunson - 25/3/7

If your argument is that he could be/should be in the Realgm MVP poll, then I agree, he could be.

[RB34]

Love Cade, and he could be and likely will be a really good player in this league, but obviously those are not MVP numbers in today's NBA.

For reference, Anthony Edwards and Jalen Brunson are both on the poll.

Edwards - 25/5/4
Brunson - 25/3/7

If your argument is that he could be/should be in the Realgm MVP poll, then I agree, he could be.

Definitely not arguing he should be a top candidate. I think the top 1 and 2 are pretty set regardless of order. Could Cade slide in there somewhere 4-10.

[BITP]

since Jokic's defense was brought up, I think it gets undervalued how much positioning, anticipation, communication, just taking up space, and the absence of fouling are for defensive contributions

[Wigginstime]

since Jokic's defense was brought up, I think it gets undervalued how much positioning, anticipation, communication, just taking up space, and the absence of fouling are for defensive contributions

This - Every year the on/off stats show the Nuggets defense and offense drastically drops when Jokic sits on the bench. This is the reason the Nuggets have let some solid backups leave for nothing (i.e. Isiah Hartenstein).

[Walton the GOAT]

Who I think will win? SGA

Who I think should win? Jokic, are the Nuggets still the best team offensively when he's on the floor and the worst team when he's off?Just an insane difference when Jokic goes off the floor. Not to imply that SGA isn't worthy or isn't putting up an MVP worthy season, if I'm right and he does win it will be well deserved.

[CobraCommander]

I support the 65 games thing but it will def be weird to have an ALL NBA team with no Luka this year.

Feel bad for Franz and Paolo too, they have been incredible but can't make All NBA either.

And obviously the MVP from a couple years ago, Mr. Embiid, is long out of contention. I keep forgetting he's still around, somewhere.

It’s weird But it’s fair right ?

Luka won scoring title last year but Embiid scored more ppg but only played 39 games and You can’t win the scoring title with 39 games like Embiid last year. The cut off for scoring is 58? Year end awards is 65.

This is the punishment for load management hurting the product.

Injury really determines all nba pretty much every year in some way

I definitely think the hard cutoff of 65 games is bull. Haliburton admitted that he rushed back from his hamstring injury to make the cutoff and he hasn't been the same since. And what if one player's been much better in 64 games than another has in 65? He just gets the spot because of a random number?

With that said, I don't think Luka was gonna deserve all-NBA this year anyway. He's already missed 15 games and was going to miss probably like 12 or 13 more before returning? Then if he just misses another 5 or 6 the rest of the way, that adds up to 33 games missed and 49 played. He hasn't been anywhere near dominant enough this year to deserve all-NBA not even playing 50 games.

I don’t think it matters if Luka played all year - this is coming down to SGA on wins plus stats or Jokic on outrageous stats-

This is and was a two man race- we just accepting it now

Luka, Giannis, Wemby, Tatum, Edwards, Towns, Embiid etc are not and were not going win more than SGA and have SGA level stats - SGAs stats really solid plus he still winning with the OKC second best player hurt -

And

Luka, Giannis, Wemby, Tatum, Edwards, Towns, Embiid etc Were not gonna have better pure or advanced stats than Jokic regardless of their record and Denver won’t be out of the playoffs… Denver will be good enough for jokic to win MVP..

So it’s a 2 man race and probably always was-

[Johnny Firpo]

It’s weird But it’s fair right ?

Luka won scoring title last year but Embiid scored more ppg but only played 39 games and You can’t win the scoring title with 39 games like Embiid last year. The cut off for scoring is 58? Year end awards is 65.

This is the punishment for load management hurting the product.

Injury really determines all nba pretty much every year in some way

I definitely think the hard cutoff of 65 games is bull. Haliburton admitted that he rushed back from his hamstring injury to make the cutoff and he hasn't been the same since. And what if one player's been much better in 64 games than another has in 65? He just gets the spot because of a random number?

With that said, I don't think Luka was gonna deserve all-NBA this year anyway. He's already missed 15 games and was going to miss probably like 12 or 13 more before returning? Then if he just misses another 5 or 6 the rest of the way, that adds up to 33 games missed and 49 played. He hasn't been anywhere near dominant enough this year to deserve all-NBA not even playing 50 games.

I don’t think it matters if Luka played all year - this is coming down to SGA on wins plus stats or Jokic on outrageous stats-

This is and was a two man race- we just accepting it now

Luka, Giannis, Wemby, Tatum, Edwards, Towns, Embiid etc are not and were not going win more than SGA and have SGA level stats - SGAs stats really solid plus he still winning with the OKC second best player hurt -

And

Luka, Giannis, Wemby, Tatum, Edwards, Towns, Embiid etc Were not gonna have better pure or advanced stats than Jokic regardless of their record and Denver won’t be out of the playoffs… Denver will be good enough for jokic to win MVP..

So it’s a 2 man race and probably always was-

I agree that SGA would have won and will win if he stays healthy, but I think it could have been a 3-way race for sure. Luka had a crazy good December, and at one point the Mavs was on a high win pace (not 65+ high like OKC, but high, I think 59 or something like that). The Mavs also looked the top candidate for the 2nd spot before all the sickness and injuries that decimated the roster.

[CobraCommander]

I definitely think the hard cutoff of 65 games is bull. Haliburton admitted that he rushed back from his hamstring injury to make the cutoff and he hasn't been the same since. And what if one player's been much better in 64 games than another has in 65? He just gets the spot because of a random number?

With that said, I don't think Luka was gonna deserve all-NBA this year anyway. He's already missed 15 games and was going to miss probably like 12 or 13 more before returning? Then if he just misses another 5 or 6 the rest of the way, that adds up to 33 games missed and 49 played. He hasn't been anywhere near dominant enough this year to deserve all-NBA not even playing 50 games.

I don’t think it matters if Luka played all year - this is coming down to SGA on wins plus stats or Jokic on outrageous stats-

This is and was a two man race- we just accepting it now

Luka, Giannis, Wemby, Tatum, Edwards, Towns, Embiid etc are not and were not going win more than SGA and have SGA level stats - SGAs stats really solid plus he still winning with the OKC second best player hurt -

And

Luka, Giannis, Wemby, Tatum, Edwards, Towns, Embiid etc Were not gonna have better pure or advanced stats than Jokic regardless of their record and Denver won’t be out of the playoffs… Denver will be good enough for jokic to win MVP..

So it’s a 2 man race and probably always was-

I agree that SGA would have won and will win if he stays healthy, but I think it could have been a 3-way race for sure. Luka had a crazy good December, and at one point the Mavs was on a high win pace (not 65+ high like OKC, but high, I think 59 or something like that). The Mavs also looked the top candidate for the 2nd spot before all the sickness and injuries that decimated the roster.

Luka -

• Points per game (PPG): 28.1
• Rebounds per game (RPG): 8.3
• Assists per game (APG): 7.8
• Field Goal Percentage (FG%): 46.4%
• Three-Point Percentage (3P%): 35.4%
• Free Throw Percentage (FT%): 76.7%

Sga stats
• Points per game (PPG): 31.3
• Assists per game (APG): 6.1
• Rebounds per game (RPG): 5.6
• Field Goal Percentage (FG%): 52.2%
• Three-Point Percentage (3P%): 35.6%
• Free Throw Percentage (FT%): 89.6%

Jokic-

Points per game (PPG): 31.5
• Rebounds per game (RPG): 13.0
• Assists per game (APG): 9.7
• Field Goal Percentage (FG%): 53.0%
• Three-Point Percentage (3P%): 51.0%
• Free Throw Percentage (FT%): 82.4%

Luka not beating SGA this year on stat plus record or Jokic on pure stats this year - injuries on not

He can get the chip tho as a consolation prize lol

[OkcSinceSGA]

It's kinda insulting how people treat it as if SGA is lightyears behind Jokic and this would just be some sort of sympathy MVP, due to team record alone. While I DO think that Jokic is having arguably the GOAT offensive season... I think SGA and Jokic even in a vacuum individually are WAY closer than most on this forum acknowledge. Even if both had similar team records, it would be a tough race.

Jokic fills a stat sheet a lot more, which is pretty much a given considering he's a do it all, top 5 all time big. I don't think Kobe filled the stat sheet night to night like Shaq, or Tony Parker as much as Duncan etc. That didn't stop them from winning MVP or finals MVP in the case of Parker.

They are literally neck and neck across pretty much all metrics, and SGA's 17 or whatever net rating is just as big of a deal. Even on pure eyetest.. when SGA sits, the OKC offense looks very lost half the time.

If anything the fact that SGA can spoil Jokic's historic season.... just proves how iconic of a season he's having himself. The man is a 31/5/6/1.5+ steals on 63% TS guy the last 3 years basically, and this year has become a shutdown defender. Outside of Jordan no other guard has even done that, let alone 3 years.

So anyone talking like Jokic is in a league of his own needs a reality check. If Jokic was a great defender I'd just straight up call him the GOAT. But he's not.

[Jaqua92]

The Pistons now have more wins than the Bucks and Cade is averaging 24/6/9. Just sayin…

Love Cade, and he could be and likely will be a really good player in this league, but obviously those are not MVP numbers in today's NBA.

For reference, Anthony Edwards and Jalen Brunson are both on the poll.

Edwards - 25/5/4
Brunson - 25/3/7

Neither of those guys are MVP caliber players, or 2nd tier for that matter.

Cade is a top 10 player soon-to-be though

[Jaqua92]

It's kinda insulting how people treat it as if SGA is lightyears behind Jokic and this would just be some sort of sympathy MVP, due to team record alone. While I DO think that Jokic is having arguably the GOAT offensive season... I think SGA and Jokic even in a vacuum individually are WAY closer than most on this forum acknowledge. Even if both had similar team records, it would be a tough race.

Jokic fills a stat sheet a lot more, which is pretty much a given considering he's a do it all, top 5 all time big. I don't think Kobe filled the stat sheet night to night like Shaq, or Tony Parker as much as Duncan etc. That didn't stop them from winning MVP or finals MVP in the case of Parker.

They are literally neck and neck across pretty much all metrics, and SGA's 17 or whatever net rating is just as big of a deal. Even on pure eyetest.. when SGA sits, the OKC offense looks very lost half the time.

If anything the fact that SGA can spoil Jokic's historic season.... just proves how iconic of a season he's having himself. The man is a 31/5/6/1.5+ steals on 63% TS guy the last 3 years basically, and this year has become a shutdown defender. Outside of Jordan no other guard has even done that, let alone 3 years.

So anyone talking like Jokic is in a league of his own needs a reality check. If Jokic was a great defender I'd just straight up call him the GOAT. But he's not.

To argue SGA is MVP one thing. But to argue that he's the same tier player as Jokic is an egregious take.

It's outrageous.

You're saying that it's insulting that people aren't putting a guy who hasn't won anything on the same level as a 3x MVP, finals MVP, top 3 offensive player ever who is having arguably a top 5 all time peak.

It's insulting that people don't consider SGA having one of the GOAT peaks?

Will you stop this and at least try to be objective?

[OkcSinceSGA]

It's kinda insulting how people treat it as if SGA is lightyears behind Jokic and this would just be some sort of sympathy MVP, due to team record alone. While I DO think that Jokic is having arguably the GOAT offensive season... I think SGA and Jokic even in a vacuum individually are WAY closer than most on this forum acknowledge. Even if both had similar team records, it would be a tough race.

Jokic fills a stat sheet a lot more, which is pretty much a given considering he's a do it all, top 5 all time big. I don't think Kobe filled the stat sheet night to night like Shaq, or Tony Parker as much as Duncan etc. That didn't stop them from winning MVP or finals MVP in the case of Parker.

They are literally neck and neck across pretty much all metrics, and SGA's 17 or whatever net rating is just as big of a deal. Even on pure eyetest.. when SGA sits, the OKC offense looks very lost half the time.

If anything the fact that SGA can spoil Jokic's historic season.... just proves how iconic of a season he's having himself. The man is a 31/5/6/1.5+ steals on 63% TS guy the last 3 years basically, and this year has become a shutdown defender. Outside of Jordan no other guard has even done that, let alone 3 years.

So anyone talking like Jokic is in a league of his own needs a reality check. If Jokic was a great defender I'd just straight up call him the GOAT. But he's not.

To argue SGA is MVP one thing. But to argue that he's the same tier player as Jokic is an egregious take.

It's outrageous.

You're saying that it's insulting that people aren't putting a guy who hasn't won anything on the same level as a 3x MVP, finals MVP, top 3 offensive player ever who is having arguably a top 5 all time peak.

It's insulting that people don't consider SGA having one of the GOAT peaks?

Will you stop this and at least try to be objective?

I don't think it's egregious to say THIS season they are close in their impact, and it's weird to me when people suggest otherwise. We have no metric in the world that shows Jokic blowing him away. It's a mix of both of them beating each other. Jokic narrowly passed him this week in WS/48, SGA has been leading him in EPM all year pretty much. The defensive difference is huge.

I think I'm being perfectly objective to say in 2024-2025 even factoring team record being much closer SGA would have a great MVP argument as well against Jokic. I personally think Jokic is a little bit better, not by much though.

[Jaqua92]

It's kinda insulting how people treat it as if SGA is lightyears behind Jokic and this would just be some sort of sympathy MVP, due to team record alone. While I DO think that Jokic is having arguably the GOAT offensive season... I think SGA and Jokic even in a vacuum individually are WAY closer than most on this forum acknowledge. Even if both had similar team records, it would be a tough race.

Jokic fills a stat sheet a lot more, which is pretty much a given considering he's a do it all, top 5 all time big. I don't think Kobe filled the stat sheet night to night like Shaq, or Tony Parker as much as Duncan etc. That didn't stop them from winning MVP or finals MVP in the case of Parker.

They are literally neck and neck across pretty much all metrics, and SGA's 17 or whatever net rating is just as big of a deal. Even on pure eyetest.. when SGA sits, the OKC offense looks very lost half the time.

If anything the fact that SGA can spoil Jokic's historic season.... just proves how iconic of a season he's having himself. The man is a 31/5/6/1.5+ steals on 63% TS guy the last 3 years basically, and this year has become a shutdown defender. Outside of Jordan no other guard has even done that, let alone 3 years.

So anyone talking like Jokic is in a league of his own needs a reality check. If Jokic was a great defender I'd just straight up call him the GOAT. But he's not.

To argue SGA is MVP one thing. But to argue that he's the same tier player as Jokic is an egregious take.

It's outrageous.

You're saying that it's insulting that people aren't putting a guy who hasn't won anything on the same level as a 3x MVP, finals MVP, top 3 offensive player ever who is having arguably a top 5 all time peak.

It's insulting that people don't consider SGA having one of the GOAT peaks?

Will you stop this and at least try to be objective?

I don't think it's egregious to say THIS season they are close in their impact, and it's weird to me when people suggest otherwise. We have no metric in the world that shows Jokic blowing him away. It's a mix of both of them beating each other. Jokic narrowly passed him this week in WS/48, SGA has been leading him in EPM all year pretty much. The defensive difference is huge.

I think I'm being perfectly objective to say in 2024-2025 even factoring team record being much closer SGA would have a great MVP argument as well against Jokic. I personally think Jokic is a little bit better, not by much though.

SGA is also playing a lot harder than Jokic despite having more talent. Jokic is having a lot of games where he's just using gravity and playmaking to let his teammates get better.


These last two games against Dallas are going to hurt his advanced metrics, but that's by sheer decision and deterrence. He's greater than the sum of the metrics.

The gap on defense isn't significant enough. Theres no good defensive metrics out there but being on a good defensive team by virtue is going to give good defensive metrics.

Jokic is comfortably better. In all seriousness, have you entertained the idea that it may be you who is wrong and not the majority when considering the gap between the two?

[Exp0sed]

I
[

I don't think it's egregious to say THIS season they are close in their impact, and it's weird to me when people suggest otherwise. We have no metric in the world that shows Jokic blowing him away. It's a mix of both of them beating each other. Jokic narrowly passed him this week in WS/48, SGA has been leading him in EPM all year pretty much. The defensive difference is huge.

I think I'm being perfectly objective to say in 2024-2025 even factoring team record being much closer SGA would have a great MVP argument as well against Jokic. I personally think Jokic is a little bit better, not by much though.

they're def in the same tier this season so far, is anyone claiming differently? that's a weird argument

[Exp0sed]

SGA is also playing a lot harder than Jokic despite having more talent. Jokic is having a lot of games where he's just using gravity and playmaking to let his teammates get better.


These last two games against Dallas are going to hurt his advanced metrics, but that's by sheer decision and deterrence. He's greater than the sum of the metrics.

The gap on defense isn't significant enough. Theres no good defensive metrics out there but being on a good defensive team by virtue is going to give good defensive metrics.

Jokic is comfortably better. In all seriousness, have you entertained the idea that it may be you who is wrong and not the majority when considering the gap between the two?

I agree that Jokic isn't trying as hard as SGA but that has nothing to do with the MVP race, you don't get points on potential effort, only on actual effort

also, while SGA has alot more help on the defensive side of the ball, it'd be hard to argue against Jokic having more help offensively

Murray started the season awful on both ends, but he's picked it up and is steadily inching closer to his usual (albeit not that impressive) rs level, had his best offensive quarter in the season vs. the Mavs just now, MPJ is better offensively than any non-SGA Thunder player and WB has helped fuel their transition game (which was already elite) to the league's best transition game