Top 10 Bulls of the post dynasty era

[GoBlue72391]

Is the ability to stay healthy a talent? Is defensive awareness a talent? Is developing chemistry with your teammates a talent? Is making the playoffs a talent?

It’s not like Joakim Noah and Kirk Hinrich were always on teams that were a lot more talented than the teams that Lavine has been on.

This is Lavine’s 8th year on the Bulls and he’s won 1 playoff game.

If he’s so talented why can’t he make the playoffs more? Why can’t he play better in the playoffs? Why can’t he win playoff games?

There's no point discussing this with you. You move the goalpost with every response. You really are going with "Rose was healthier as a Bull than Lavine"? Really?

And yes. Rose and Noah were always on better teams lol. But the debate was who was more talented. Rose or Lavine. It really isn't even that close.

You also asked a couple posts back if the Bulls had Rose this season instead of Lavine would they be better. The answer is obviously no, if for no other reason than the league is a 3 point shooting league now and Rose was a poor 3 point shooter where Zach is elite.

There is no universe where Rose was better defensively than Lavine. Rose couldn't play anyone straight up.

Developing chemistry with teammates?

You're just being ridiculous now.

The word talent doesn’t appear in the OP. He talked about how good players were relative to the rest of the league. Derrick Rose won MVP. Noah made the all-NBA 1st teams

Noah was 4th in MVP voting in 2014, not the most talented team. The 2004-2006 Bulls and 2014 Bulls were not the most talented teams.

And yes, Rose was much better at defense, and would routinely outplay elite point guards head to head. Zach Lavine has had a negative DBPM every year of his career, whereas Rose was +6.8 his MVP year, and Rose played in 81, 78, and 81 games his first 3 seasons. There’s been 2 seasons where Lavine has played 65 games with us and he had a negative +/- in both of them.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

And Rose today would be surrounded by 4 3 point shooters, not Noah, Gibson, Deng, and Bogans.

Zach is like JR Smith. He has skills but he isn’t an elite player.

It seems to me that you’re the one moving the goalposts. You say Zach is more talented for today’s game because he’s a better 3 point shooter, but then he has worse teammates, even though they’re much better 3 point shooters than what Rose’s teammates were and Rose never got to benefit from that spacing.

Is Zach Lavine also more talented than Bill Russell and Kareem because they didn’t shoot 3s?

Rose was not a good defender. I don't know where this narrative is coming from. He fluctuated between below average to slightly above average at best on that end. I didn't miss a game from like '05 to '14, I don't care what modern advanced defensive stats lacking context say years later.

I'm not saying Zach is better than Rose, not at all, just nitpicking this part about defense.

[GoBlue72391]

There's no point discussing this with you. You move the goalpost with every response. You really are going with "Rose was healthier as a Bull than Lavine"? Really?

And yes. Rose and Noah were always on better teams lol. But the debate was who was more talented. Rose or Lavine. It really isn't even that close.

You also asked a couple posts back if the Bulls had Rose this season instead of Lavine would they be better. The answer is obviously no, if for no other reason than the league is a 3 point shooting league now and Rose was a poor 3 point shooter where Zach is elite.

There is no universe where Rose was better defensively than Lavine. Rose couldn't play anyone straight up.

Developing chemistry with teammates?

You're just being ridiculous now.

You don't seriously think that Lavine is better than Rose do you?

From a strictly talent perspective, of course. Let me ask it a different way. What talents did Rose have that Lavine doesn't do just as well.

Passing? Probably.

What does Lavine do better? Shooting. From all 3 levels.

Defending one on one.

Everything else. Pretty much even.

Which skill is most important?

Rose had generational speed with ball from end to end and body control. That's a game-changing trait.

[GoBlue72391]

Is the ability to stay healthy a talent? Is defensive awareness a talent? Is developing chemistry with your teammates a talent? Is making the playoffs a talent?

It’s not like Joakim Noah and Kirk Hinrich were always on teams that were a lot more talented than the teams that Lavine has been on.

This is Lavine’s 8th year on the Bulls and he’s won 1 playoff game.

If he’s so talented why can’t he make the playoffs more? Why can’t he play better in the playoffs? Why can’t he win playoff games?

There's no point discussing this with you. You move the goalpost with every response. You really are going with "Rose was healthier as a Bull than Lavine"? Really?

And yes. Rose and Noah were always on better teams lol. But the debate was who was more talented. Rose or Lavine. It really isn't even that close.

You also asked a couple posts back if the Bulls had Rose this season instead of Lavine would they be better. The answer is obviously no, if for no other reason than the league is a 3 point shooting league now and Rose was a poor 3 point shooter where Zach is elite.

There is no universe where Rose was better defensively than Lavine. Rose couldn't play anyone straight up.

Developing chemistry with teammates?

You're just being ridiculous now.

Lmfao Rose pre injury with Thibbs was nearly as good of a defender at the 1 position as there was in the league. Excellent defender for a couple years.

This is some absolutely crazy revisionist history. Wow.

[NZB2323]

There's no point discussing this with you. You move the goalpost with every response. You really are going with "Rose was healthier as a Bull than Lavine"? Really?

And yes. Rose and Noah were always on better teams lol. But the debate was who was more talented. Rose or Lavine. It really isn't even that close.

You also asked a couple posts back if the Bulls had Rose this season instead of Lavine would they be better. The answer is obviously no, if for no other reason than the league is a 3 point shooting league now and Rose was a poor 3 point shooter where Zach is elite.

There is no universe where Rose was better defensively than Lavine. Rose couldn't play anyone straight up.

Developing chemistry with teammates?

You're just being ridiculous now.

The word talent doesn’t appear in the OP. He talked about how good players were relative to the rest of the league. Derrick Rose won MVP. Noah made the all-NBA 1st teams

Noah was 4th in MVP voting in 2014, not the most talented team. The 2004-2006 Bulls and 2014 Bulls were not the most talented teams.

And yes, Rose was much better at defense, and would routinely outplay elite point guards head to head. Zach Lavine has had a negative DBPM every year of his career, whereas Rose was +6.8 his MVP year, and Rose played in 81, 78, and 81 games his first 3 seasons. There’s been 2 seasons where Lavine has played 65 games with us and he had a negative +/- in both of them.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

And Rose today would be surrounded by 4 3 point shooters, not Noah, Gibson, Deng, and Bogans.

Zach is like JR Smith. He has skills but he isn’t an elite player.

It seems to me that you’re the one moving the goalposts. You say Zach is more talented for today’s game because he’s a better 3 point shooter, but then he has worse teammates, even though they’re much better 3 point shooters than what Rose’s teammates were and Rose never got to benefit from that spacing.

Is Zach Lavine also more talented than Bill Russell and Kareem because they didn’t shoot 3s?

Rose was not a good defender. I don't know where this narrative is coming from. He fluctuated between below average to slightly above average at best on that end. I didn't miss a game from like '05 to '14, I don't care what modern advanced defensive stats lacking context say years later.

I'm not saying Zach is better than Rose, not at all, just nitpicking this part about defense.

Rose was a good defensive player his rookie year for a rookie, but struggled with things rookies typically do on defense.

In 2010 he was an average defender.

In 2011 he was a good defender.

From 2014-2016 he was a bad defensive player.

[GoBlue72391]

The word talent doesn’t appear in the OP. He talked about how good players were relative to the rest of the league. Derrick Rose won MVP. Noah made the all-NBA 1st teams

Noah was 4th in MVP voting in 2014, not the most talented team. The 2004-2006 Bulls and 2014 Bulls were not the most talented teams.

And yes, Rose was much better at defense, and would routinely outplay elite point guards head to head. Zach Lavine has had a negative DBPM every year of his career, whereas Rose was +6.8 his MVP year, and Rose played in 81, 78, and 81 games his first 3 seasons. There’s been 2 seasons where Lavine has played 65 games with us and he had a negative +/- in both of them.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

And Rose today would be surrounded by 4 3 point shooters, not Noah, Gibson, Deng, and Bogans.

Zach is like JR Smith. He has skills but he isn’t an elite player.

It seems to me that you’re the one moving the goalposts. You say Zach is more talented for today’s game because he’s a better 3 point shooter, but then he has worse teammates, even though they’re much better 3 point shooters than what Rose’s teammates were and Rose never got to benefit from that spacing.

Is Zach Lavine also more talented than Bill Russell and Kareem because they didn’t shoot 3s?

Rose was not a good defender. I don't know where this narrative is coming from. He fluctuated between below average to slightly above average at best on that end. I didn't miss a game from like '05 to '14, I don't care what modern advanced defensive stats lacking context say years later.

I'm not saying Zach is better than Rose, not at all, just nitpicking this part about defense.

Rose was a good defensive player his rookie year for a rookie, but struggled with things rookies typically do on defense.

In 2010 he was an average defender.

In 2011 he was a good defender.

From 2014-2016 he was a bad defensive player.

I specifically remember him being downright bad as a defender as a rookie despite him coming in with a good reputation on that end, and discussing it with people IRL and on the old ESPN boards.

If you wanna use numbers, fine, but IMO numbers are great for offense but don't mean much when it comes to defense at all. Eye test on that end of the court is still the best way to gauge defense. Maybe someday that will change, but it hasn't yet.

[NZB2323]

Rose was not a good defender. I don't know where this narrative is coming from. He fluctuated between below average to slightly above average at best on that end. I didn't miss a game from like '05 to '14, I don't care what modern advanced defensive stats lacking context say years later.

I'm not saying Zach is better than Rose, not at all, just nitpicking this part about defense.

Rose was a good defensive player his rookie year for a rookie, but struggled with things rookies typically do on defense.

In 2010 he was an average defender.

In 2011 he was a good defender.

From 2014-2016 he was a bad defensive player.

I specifically remember him being downright bad as a defender as a rookie despite him coming in with a good reputation on that end, and discussing it with people IRL and on the old ESPN boards.

If you wanna use numbers, fine, but IMO numbers are great for offense but don't mean much when it comes to defense at all. Eye test on that end of the court is still the best way to gauge defense. Maybe someday that will change, but it hasn't yet.

Most rookies are bad defensive players. His pick and roll defense in particular he struggled with a lot, but if you compare him to the average rookie that year, he was a good defender.

[League Circles]

Rose was not a good defender. I don't know where this narrative is coming from. He fluctuated between below average to slightly above average at best on that end. I didn't miss a game from like '05 to '14, I don't care what modern advanced defensive stats lacking context say years later.

I'm not saying Zach is better than Rose, not at all, just nitpicking this part about defense.

Rose was a good defensive player his rookie year for a rookie, but struggled with things rookies typically do on defense.

In 2010 he was an average defender.

In 2011 he was a good defender.

From 2014-2016 he was a bad defensive player.

I specifically remember him being downright bad as a defender as a rookie despite him coming in with a good reputation on that end, and discussing it with people IRL and on the old ESPN boards.

If you wanna use numbers, fine, but IMO numbers are great for offense but don't mean much when it comes to defense at all. Eye test on that end of the court is still the best way to gauge defense. Maybe someday that will change, but it hasn't yet.

I mean, we also had IIRC the league's #1 defense in both his 3rd and 4th years despite featuring terrible defenders Boozer, Korver and (by then) RIP Hamilton prominently in the rotation. Part of that was cause Rose could hassle the hell out of opposing PGs.

[Stratmaster]

The word talent doesn’t appear in the OP. He talked about how good players were relative to the rest of the league. Derrick Rose won MVP. Noah made the all-NBA 1st teams

Noah was 4th in MVP voting in 2014, not the most talented team. The 2004-2006 Bulls and 2014 Bulls were not the most talented teams.

And yes, Rose was much better at defense, and would routinely outplay elite point guards head to head. Zach Lavine has had a negative DBPM every year of his career, whereas Rose was +6.8 his MVP year, and Rose played in 81, 78, and 81 games his first 3 seasons. There’s been 2 seasons where Lavine has played 65 games with us and he had a negative +/- in both of them.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

And Rose today would be surrounded by 4 3 point shooters, not Noah, Gibson, Deng, and Bogans.

Zach is like JR Smith. He has skills but he isn’t an elite player.

It seems to me that you’re the one moving the goalposts. You say Zach is more talented for today’s game because he’s a better 3 point shooter, but then he has worse teammates, even though they’re much better 3 point shooters than what Rose’s teammates were and Rose never got to benefit from that spacing.

Is Zach Lavine also more talented than Bill Russell and Kareem because they didn’t shoot 3s?

Rose was not a good defender. I don't know where this narrative is coming from. He fluctuated between below average to slightly above average at best on that end. I didn't miss a game from like '05 to '14, I don't care what modern advanced defensive stats lacking context say years later.

I'm not saying Zach is better than Rose, not at all, just nitpicking this part about defense.

Rose was a good defensive player his rookie year for a rookie, but struggled with things rookies typically do on defense.

In 2010 he was an average defender.

In 2011 he was a good defender.

From 2014-2016 he was a bad defensive player.

Says who? Just for grins I asked AI. It says the opposite:

No, Derrick Rose was not considered a good defender throughout his career, with most analysts agreeing that defense was not his strong suit, particularly when guarding elite point guards in his prime; his offensive prowess was his primary strength, making him more focused on scoring than consistent defensive play.
Key points about Rose's defense:
Not a defensive specialist:
Rose was primarily known for his explosive offensive abilities, including speed and finishing at the rim, which meant his defensive focus was often secondary.
Challenges guarding top point guards:
Due to his size and defensive limitations, Rose struggled against elite point guards who could easily exploit him in one-on-one matchups.
Improved effort in later career:
While not considered a great defender throughout his career, some analysts noted that Rose did show improved defensive effort and focus in later stages of his career.

[Stratmaster]

You don't seriously think that Lavine is better than Rose do you?

From a strictly talent perspective, of course. Let me ask it a different way. What talents did Rose have that Lavine doesn't do just as well.

Passing? Probably.

What does Lavine do better? Shooting. From all 3 levels.

Defending one on one.

Everything else. Pretty much even.

Which skill is most important?

Rose had generational speed with ball from end to end and body control. That's a game-changing trait.

Absolutely. Rose was number 2 on my list. He was amazing.

[Stratmaster]

Defense, passing, penetration, winning playoff games.

I have Noah ahead of Lavine as well.

Lavine’s playoff stats with the Bulls are 19, 6, and 5, 55.3 TS%, 13.8 PER.

Rose in 2011 was 27, 8, and 4, 49.9 TS%, 22.9 PER.

Butler in 2015 was 23, 6, and 3, 56.2 TS.%, 20.8 PER.

Noah, Deng, Gasol, Hinrich, and Ben Gordon have accomplished more for the Bulls in the playoffs than Zach Lavine ever has. I’m sure that Lavine could beat them in a skills competition, but when it comes to the NBA playoffs, these guys have done more.

Playoff wins wasn't the topic. It was talent. You have to have a good team to get to the playoffs.

So Zach has played for bad teams? You're always saying every season how we're actually better than most people think and how we're most likely going to make the playoffs even though we never do.

Is your position that the teams around Zach Lavine have been as good as the teams around Derrick Rose were?

[Stratmaster]

I gave you 2 impact stats. I gave you the scoring and efficiency numbers. You have given nothing but your opinion. You "told me" his impact stats dwarf Lavines? You haven't given a single one.

Again. Name something Rose did better than Lavine does.

Defense, passing, penetration, winning playoff games.

I have Noah ahead of Lavine as well.

Lavine’s playoff stats with the Bulls are 19, 6, and 5, 55.3 TS%, 13.8 PER.

Rose in 2011 was 27, 8, and 4, 49.9 TS%, 22.9 PER.

Butler in 2015 was 23, 6, and 3, 56.2 TS.%, 20.8 PER.

Noah, Deng, Gasol, Hinrich, and Ben Gordon have accomplished more for the Bulls in the playoffs than Zach Lavine ever has. I’m sure that Lavine could beat them in a skills competition, but when it comes to the NBA playoffs, these guys have done more.

Neither was very good on defense. I remember when Rose entered the league he had the reputation of being a good defender, but that pretty quickly turned out to be mostly untrue. Zach's a better on-ball defender but I don't recall Rose having as many help/rotation breakdowns, so I'd call it a draw or give the slight nod to Zach for defense.

I've always been a big Zach guy and honestly Rose soured on me after that whole not playing even when he was cleared fiasco (though it's all water under the bridge now), but Rose is easily and by far the best post-Jordan Bull and it's not even up for debate. Rose was like my 4th favorite player on those teams after Deng, Noah, and Taj so it's not like I'm a biased Rose supremacist.

I listed every objective production and advanced number for both players. I gave the Bulls career top 10 rankings and they both played the same number of games as bulls to date. You are right. It isn't close. Lavine was better in every category but assists. And Rose played exclusively point guard.

I get the Bulls team of that era was better, that Rose is hometown and that there is a romanticized perception of him. But everyone who claims "it isn't up for debate" can't explain why other "playoffs".

[Stratmaster]

How many of those guys were in their prime when Rose was in his prime?

Rose was past his prime when he played with Butler who wasn't in his prime yet.

Noah's prime was 2013-2014, when Rose was injured.

When the Bulls got Pau Gasol Rose was past his prime.

The Bulls won 33 games before getting Rose, and then didn't resign Ben Gordon. He didn't have a stacked roster in 2009 or 2010. And Rose didn't just make the playoffs in 2011. He led the Bulls to the best record in the league and the ECF.

Noah led us to the playoffs while Rose was injured, after Deng was traded, while Butler was a baby, and before we got Gasol. He also led us to a playoff series win while Rose, Hinrich, and Deng were injured and Butler was a baby.

Vuc made the playoffs in 2019 and 2020 without Lavine and without a stacked roster, and has only made the playoffs once with Lavine. Derozan made the playoffs 6 years in a row before joining Lavine and only made it once with him. Both Derozan and Vuc have performed better in the playoffs than Lavine.

You really are doubling down on the notion that the rosters Lavine has played alongside are comparable in overall talent to the ones Rose played alongside? Is that really your stake in the ground? And that Noah was a better basketball player than Lavine? Both of those are ridiculous.

What's your argument for Lavine over Butler? He's clearly the better defensive player, who was healthy, had better impact metrics, and is the more winning player.

2017 Butler: 24, 6, and 6, 58.6 TS%, 25.1 PER, 7.3 BPM, 6.6 VORP
2021 Lavine: 27, 5, and 5, 63.4 TS%, 21.5 PER, 4 BPM, 3.1 VORP

Chicago Bulls all-time leaders

VORP
Butler: 6th
Lavine: 10th

WS
Butler: 8th
Lavine: Not Top 10

BPM
Butler: 4th
Lavine: Not Top 10

Sorry. Cherry-picking 1 season doesn't work. He didn't average anywhere NEAR those numbers as a Bull.

Healthy? He played 42 games his rookie season. Then he played all 82 in year 2. He missed 15 games his 3rd season. 17 his 4th. 15 in his 5th season. Only 6 in his last season. Just a FWIW as it doesn't matter as he wasn't a Bull; since then he hasn't played more than 65 games in a season and has only hit 60 3 times.

[NZB2323]

You really are doubling down on the notion that the rosters Lavine has played alongside are comparable in overall talent to the ones Rose played alongside? Is that really your stake in the ground? And that Noah was a better basketball player than Lavine? Both of those are ridiculous.

What's your argument for Lavine over Butler? He's clearly the better defensive player, who was healthy, had better impact metrics, and is the more winning player.

2017 Butler: 24, 6, and 6, 58.6 TS%, 25.1 PER, 7.3 BPM, 6.6 VORP
2021 Lavine: 27, 5, and 5, 63.4 TS%, 21.5 PER, 4 BPM, 3.1 VORP

Chicago Bulls all-time leaders

VORP
Butler: 6th
Lavine: 10th

WS
Butler: 8th
Lavine: Not Top 10

BPM
Butler: 4th
Lavine: Not Top 10

Sorry. Cherry-picking 1 season doesn't work. He didn't average anywhere NEAR those numbers as a Bull.

Healthy? He played 42 games his rookie season. Then he played all 82 in year 2. He missed 15 games his 3rd season. 17 his 4th. 15 in his 5th season. Only 6 in his last season. Just a FWIW as it doesn't matter as he wasn't a Bull; since then he hasn't played more than 65 games in a season and has only hit 60 3 times.

Butler's rookie year was the lockout shortened season that was only 62 games. Butler was healthy, but Thibbs doesn't like to play rookies. Butler was a lot healthier than Lavine, and more available for games.

Butler:
2012(62 game shortened season): 42 games, 3 playoff games
2013: 82 games, 12 playoff games
2014: 67 games, 5 playoff games
2015: 65 games, 12 playoff games
2016: 67 games
2017: 76 games, 6 playoff games.

Lavine:
2018: 24 games
2019: 63 games
2020: 60 games
2021: 58 games
2022: 67 games
2023: 77 games
2024: 25 games

65 games is the new threashold to be able to win season awards. Butler played 65+ games every year he was here except for his rookie season when the season wasn't even 65 games. Lavine has had 2 seasons with us where he played in 65 or more games.

VORP, WS, and BPM for Chicago Bulls all-time leaders isn't based on one season. Those are cumulative awards. PER is based on every game played, and Butler has a higher PER with the Bulls than Lavine does. If you go by prime, Butler was better in 2017 than Lavine ever was. If you go by longevity, the advanced cumulative stats say Butler was better. The biggest weakness of advanced stats is they do a poor job capturing defense, where Butler was superior, finishing 10th, 11th, and 12th in DPOTY voting.

He was also really good in 2016, when he was an all-star and made an all-NBA team.

2016 Butler: 21, 5, and 5, 56.2 TS%, 21.3 PER, 4.4 BPM, 3.9 VORP.

He was also good for us in 2015. He had 3 all-star seasons in a row with us.

2015: 20, 6, and 3, 58.3 TS%, 21.3 PER, 4.6 BPM, 4.2 VORP

Butler and Lavine also played for the same teams.

2017 Bulls with Butler, no Lavine: Playoffs
2018 Bulls with Lavine, no Butler: no playoffs
2019 Bulls with Lavine, no Butler: no playoffs
2020 Bulls with Lavine, no Butler: no playoffs
2021 Bulls with Lavine, no Butler: no playoffs

2017 Timberwolves with Lavine, no Butler: no playoffs
2018 Timberwolves with Butler, no Lavine: playoffs
2019 Timberwolves with no Butler, no Lavine: no playoffs

I guess Lavine never got to play with a 35 year old Dwayne Wade or a 30 year old Rondo, but Rondo was only locked in for national TV games, and Wade has even come out and said that he treated his time in Chicago as a vacation. The on/off data shows that during the regular season they were both negatives while on the court.

+/-
Rondo: -4.5
Wade: -4.4
Butler: +10.9

[NZB2323]

Rose was not a good defender. I don't know where this narrative is coming from. He fluctuated between below average to slightly above average at best on that end. I didn't miss a game from like '05 to '14, I don't care what modern advanced defensive stats lacking context say years later.

I'm not saying Zach is better than Rose, not at all, just nitpicking this part about defense.

Rose was a good defensive player his rookie year for a rookie, but struggled with things rookies typically do on defense.

In 2010 he was an average defender.

In 2011 he was a good defender.

From 2014-2016 he was a bad defensive player.

Says who? Just for grins I asked AI. It says the opposite:

No, Derrick Rose was not considered a good defender throughout his career, with most analysts agreeing that defense was not his strong suit, particularly when guarding elite point guards in his prime; his offensive prowess was his primary strength, making him more focused on scoring than consistent defensive play.
Key points about Rose's defense:
Not a defensive specialist:
Rose was primarily known for his explosive offensive abilities, including speed and finishing at the rim, which meant his defensive focus was often secondary.
Challenges guarding top point guards:
Due to his size and defensive limitations, Rose struggled against elite point guards who could easily exploit him in one-on-one matchups.
Improved effort in later career:
While not considered a great defender throughout his career, some analysts noted that Rose did show improved defensive effort and focus in later stages of his career.

Oh, so ChatGPT is the expert? Let's hear more from it:

Since the Chicago Bulls' last championship in 1998, the franchise has seen several talented players. Here's a list of the top 10 Chicago Bulls players since 1998, considering their individual impact, accomplishments, and contribution to the team:

1. Derrick Rose (2008–2016)
Achievements: NBA MVP (2011), 3× All-Star
Rose became the youngest MVP in NBA history and electrified fans with his explosive athleticism, leading the Bulls to the best record in the league in consecutive seasons (2011 and 2012).

2. Jimmy Butler (2011–2017)
Achievements: 3× All-Star with Bulls, Most Improved Player (2015)
Known for his tenacious defense and two-way play, Butler emerged as a leader and franchise cornerstone during his time in Chicago.

3. Joakim Noah (2007–2016)
Achievements: 2× All-Star, Defensive Player of the Year (2014), 3× All-Defensive Team
Noah was a defensive anchor and emotional leader, excelling in rebounding, passing, and rim protection.

4. Luol Deng (2004–2014)
Achievements: 2× All-Star
Deng was a consistent scorer, elite defender, and versatile forward who played a key role during the Bulls' playoff runs in the 2010s.

5. Zach LaVine (2017–Present)
Achievements: 2× All-Star
LaVine has been a prolific scorer for the Bulls, improving his game to become one of the team's primary offensive weapons.

6. Kirk Hinrich (2003–2010, 2012–2016)
Achievements: Bulls' all-time leader in three-pointers made (until Zach LaVine surpassed him)
A tough, reliable guard known for his perimeter defense, playmaking, and shooting.

7. Ben Gordon (2004–2009)
Achievements: NBA Sixth Man of the Year (2005)
Gordon was a clutch scorer and one of the league's best sixth men, known for his sharpshooting and playoff heroics.

8. Carlos Boozer (2010–2014)
Boozer was a consistent double-double threat and a key member of the Bulls' teams that contended during the Derrick Rose era.

9. Taj Gibson (2009–2017)
A fan favorite, Gibson was a reliable defender and rebounder who provided toughness and energy off the bench.

10. DeMar DeRozan (2021–Present)
Achievements: 2× All-Star with Bulls (2022, 2023)
DeRozan revitalized the franchise with his scoring and leadership, delivering clutch performances since joining the team.

Honorable Mentions:
Elton Brand (1999–2001): Rookie of the Year (2000) and an elite post scorer during his brief Bulls tenure.

Tyson Chandler (2001–2006): A defensive stalwart who later became an NBA champion elsewhere.

Pau Gasol (2014–2016): 2× All-Star with the Bulls and a steady veteran presence.

These players have left their mark on the franchise, though the Bulls have yet to return to the heights of the Jordan-led dynasty.

Just like me, AI has Rose, Butler, Noah, and Deng ahead of Lavine.

And if you've repeatly said that saying Noah is more talented than Lavine is a ridiculous take, but here's what Chatgpt says:

Comparing Joakim Noah and Zach LaVine boils down to evaluating two very different skill sets and playing styles. Both are incredibly talented but excel in distinct ways, making them hard to compare directly.

Joakim Noah’s Talent:
Noah’s strengths lie in his unique ability to impact the game in ways that don’t always show up in the box score.

Strengths:

Defense: Two-time All-Defensive Team and 2014 Defensive Player of the Year.
Playmaking: Exceptional passer for a big man, often acting as a hub in the offense.
Leadership and Energy: Noah’s emotional intensity and leadership were central to the Bulls’ success during his prime years.
Versatility: Elite rebounder, shot-blocker, and capable of guarding multiple positions.
Limitations:

Offensive scoring was not a strong suit, with limited shooting and scoring ability.
Key Accomplishments:

2× All-Star
Defensive Player of the Year (2014)
Zach LaVine’s Talent:
LaVine is a scoring machine with elite athleticism and offensive versatility.

Strengths:

Scoring: Prolific scorer with the ability to shoot from deep, drive to the basket, and finish with flair.
Athleticism: Known for his dunking ability and explosive leaping, especially early in his career.
Shooting: Strong outside shooter with an improving mid-range and free-throw game.
Improvement: LaVine has continually refined his game, becoming a two-time All-Star.
Limitations:

Defense has been a weakness, though it has improved over time.
Leadership and impact beyond scoring have been questioned.
Key Accomplishments:

2× All-Star
Olympic Gold Medalist (2021)
Who Is More Talented?
It depends on the definition of "talent":

Overall Impact on Winning: Joakim Noah. His defensive dominance, playmaking, and leadership had a direct impact on team success, particularly during the Bulls’ deep playoff runs in the early 2010s.
Offensive Skill and Athleticism: Zach LaVine. Few players in the league can match LaVine’s scoring versatility and raw athletic ability.
If you value two-way impact and intangibles, Noah might seem more talented. If you prioritize individual offensive skills and athleticism, LaVine takes the edge.

I'm not sure how improvement is a strength of Lavine and not Noah, but I'll take the guy with two-way impact on winning over the athlete who can shoot. I'm taking Noah over Lavine, Rodman over JR Smith, and Bill Russell over Dame.

[prolific passer]

So Rose and Lavine were talented in different ways but who's talent was more conducive to winning?

[sco]

For Rose, I will note that he was arguably a top 5 player in the NBA during his peak where Zach was probably never better than 15th.

[NZB2323]

I had some incorrect information in this post.

[GoBlue72391]

Rose was a good defensive player his rookie year for a rookie, but struggled with things rookies typically do on defense.

In 2010 he was an average defender.

In 2011 he was a good defender.

From 2014-2016 he was a bad defensive player.

I specifically remember him being downright bad as a defender as a rookie despite him coming in with a good reputation on that end, and discussing it with people IRL and on the old ESPN boards.

If you wanna use numbers, fine, but IMO numbers are great for offense but don't mean much when it comes to defense at all. Eye test on that end of the court is still the best way to gauge defense. Maybe someday that will change, but it hasn't yet.

I mean, we also had IIRC the league's #1 defense in both his 3rd and 4th years despite featuring terrible defenders Boozer, Korver and (by then) RIP Hamilton prominently in the rotation. Part of that was cause Rose could hassle the hell out of opposing PGs.

What does a team's overall defensive quality have to do with an individual player's defense? Rose wasn't the reason those teams were so amazing defensively. That was due to Thibs, Noah, Deng, Asik, Taj, Brewer, Bogans. That team was stacked with defensive players and Thibs got the absolute most out of them.

I'm not saying Rose was a bad defender other than his rookie year, just that he wasn't a good defender. He was certainly better defensively than Boozer and Korver. A team can overcome two bad defenders, especially when one is a 7th-8th man like Korver was.

You were saying Rose was one of the best defensive PGs in the league. That is absolute insanity and extreme revisionist history. That's not even close to being true.

[GoBlue72391]

Playoff wins wasn't the topic. It was talent. You have to have a good team to get to the playoffs.

So Zach has played for bad teams? You're always saying every season how we're actually better than most people think and how we're most likely going to make the playoffs even though we never do.

Is your position that the teams around Zach Lavine have been as good as the teams around Derrick Rose were?

No, and that's not even the point of my comment.

You're basically saying it can't be held against Zach for not leading his teams to the playoffs as a way to negate Rose's playoff success, yet every year you say we're going to be over .500 and make the playoffs. Those seem like contradictory opinions.

[League Circles]

I specifically remember him being downright bad as a defender as a rookie despite him coming in with a good reputation on that end, and discussing it with people IRL and on the old ESPN boards.

If you wanna use numbers, fine, but IMO numbers are great for offense but don't mean much when it comes to defense at all. Eye test on that end of the court is still the best way to gauge defense. Maybe someday that will change, but it hasn't yet.

I mean, we also had IIRC the league's #1 defense in both his 3rd and 4th years despite featuring terrible defenders Boozer, Korver and (by then) RIP Hamilton prominently in the rotation. Part of that was cause Rose could hassle the hell out of opposing PGs.

What does a team's overall defensive quality have to do with an individual player's defense? Rose wasn't the reason those teams were so amazing defensively. That was due to Thibs, Noah, Deng, Asik, Taj, Brewer, Bogans. That team was stacked with defensive players and Thibs got the absolute most out of them.

I'm not saying Rose was a bad defender other than his rookie year, just that he wasn't a good defender. He was certainly better defensively than Boozer and Korver. A team can overcome two bad defenders, especially when one is a 7th-8th man like Korver was.

You were saying Rose was one of the best defensive PGs in the league. That is absolute insanity and extreme revisionist history. That's not even close to being true.

Korver was 6th in minutes, nearly tied with Taj and Brewer. Noah missed nearly half the season, though yes Asik was great.


A #1 overall defense is very unlikely with 2 major rotation players being terrible defenders and a third in Rose allegedly being also not good.

Rose wasn't good on every possession for 82 games due to his offensive burden, but when it mattered he was simply excellent, especially on ball.

Fun fact: Rose was the highest voted for player for nba all defense in 2010-11 after the 10 guys who made the all defense teams. He missed being NBA all defense by one point that year. Got more votes than Deng for example. Got votes the following year also.