For the first time, are the Knicks over-rated?

[nykballa2k4]

I have been a fan of this team for years, been on this forum longer than some posters have been alive.
From all of the Allan Houston "he's coming back" tours, to Eddy Curry/Jamal Crawford era.
Mike D'antoni, Mike Woodson. That Larry Brown experience.

Every year, I pretty much listened to ESPN and all the pundits talk poorly of the Knicks odds of a winning season.
A couple of moments, when we had "no chance" to beat the Heat with Melo, Amare, Chandler (amare famously punched a fire extinguisher, extinguishing our chances) this side story there was the uneven officiating LeBron has enjoyed in his career. From Wade getting no T, no foul call at all after throwing Bibby's shoe in the stands (should have been a brawl, but obviously we had a team of softies) to Tyson setting a legal screen on LeBron, who flops and draws a flagrant foul.

All this to say, I hear the media being VERY positive about this team.
We have KAT, he is very good. When he is good, we are good. I get all that.
However I can't say that I have seen a good team on the court yet this season.

I just don't see it.
Brunson is not dominating and devastating.
I am not seeing us have a big man out wrestle two from the other team giving us the ball with an open man.
I am not seeing quick feet on the perimeter.

I am seeing PnR destroy us.
I am seeing zone defense stymieing us.
I am seeing ballyhooed and well compensated players putting up weak performances, inconsistent shooting, poor defense.
I am seeing absolutely no resistance at the rim like it's a diddy party at 3am.

The record looks good for the moment. It feels hollow. I don't feel any identity from the team aside from Hart trying to be a glue.
We overpaid for Bridges.
We lost DDV who was a big part of chemistry with Brunson.
OG went from an asset to a bloated contract (Knicks tax)

Unless something actually changes, this feels like a team that could see itself in a play-in situation.

[god shammgod]

yes

[Montmorencie]

by whom

[MrDollarBills]

No. They're 26-15.

It's January.

[seren]

We are top heavy. Being top heavy is an advantage in the playoffs if you can stay healthy. The problem is Thibs is trying hard, really hard, to ensure we won't be healthy. I have to say at this stage, this is insanity when you are playing your bench less than 60 mpg which is 12 minutes a game less than the second lowest team.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=teams+that+played+least+bench+minutes+per+game+2024-25

[SelbyCobra]

No, they've got undeniable talent - not potential, but actual established, high-end, elite talent - but they have a coach that does not have it organized and presented in a way to make it work best.

They can be run ragged, have no offensive system, and miss defensive assignments, and the talent is so good that it will still lead them to the 5th best winning percentage in the NBA halfway through the season.

So no, they're properly rated. They're an elite team, but with a governor. The question remains what a restrictive coach can produce his way with this level of talent.

[3toheadmelo]

Yep

[The KnicksFix]

They have an amazing team, they are 26-15 at the halfway mark, they will win 50, its the coach that holds them back

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Knicks starting lineup net rating by quarter

1st +0.1
2nd +4.5
3rd +10.3
4th -0.3



They're not overrated; they're just overplayed. By every metric this team is elite for 2 quarters of the game, oddly enough the "most prepared" coach in the league can't seem to get his team to perform in the 1st quarter while the other elite teams beat the brakes off teams in the first we're often playing even or barely ahead. The 2nd and 3rd quarters the team finally comes to life, but the team has a worse net rating in the 4th than the Nets.

[Gravy]

We are very good but compared to the elite teams they are much deeper and KAT can be a liability on defense. Need to get Mitch back and for Leon to fleece someone with Jericho Sims

[Lord Commander]

I have been a fan of this team for years, been on this forum longer than some posters have been alive.
From all of the Allan Houston "he's coming back" tours, to Eddy Curry/Jamal Crawford era.
Mike D'antoni, Mike Woodson. That Larry Brown experience.

Every year, I pretty much listened to ESPN and all the pundits talk poorly of the Knicks odds of a winning season.
A couple of moments, when we had "no chance" to beat the Heat with Melo, Amare, Chandler (amare famously punched a fire extinguisher, extinguishing our chances) this side story there was the uneven officiating LeBron has enjoyed in his career. From Wade getting no T, no foul call at all after throwing Bibby's shoe in the stands (should have been a brawl, but obviously we had a team of softies) to Tyson setting a legal screen on LeBron, who flops and draws a flagrant foul.

All this to say, I hear the media being VERY positive about this team.
We have KAT, he is very good. When he is good, we are good. I get all that.
However I can't say that I have seen a good team on the court yet this season.

I just don't see it.
Brunson is not dominating and devastating.
I am not seeing us have a big man out wrestle two from the other team giving us the ball with an open man.
I am not seeing quick feet on the perimeter.

I am seeing PnR destroy us.
I am seeing zone defense stymieing us.
I am seeing ballyhooed and well compensated players putting up weak performances, inconsistent shooting, poor defense.
I am seeing absolutely no resistance at the rim like it's a diddy party at 3am.

The record looks good for the moment. It feels hollow. I don't feel any identity from the team aside from Hart trying to be a glue.
We overpaid for Bridges.
We lost DDV who was a big part of chemistry with Brunson.
OG went from an asset to a bloated contract (Knicks tax)

Unless something actually changes, this feels like a team that could see itself in a play-in situation.

[JXL]

No. They just don't have a bench to mitigate the starters. A top-heavy roster, but it needs balance. They don't have that, and it needs to be addressed.

Also, a coach that doesn't run awful drop coverage when the league is averaging 36 3's per game.

[Knicksfan1992]

I have been a fan of this team for years, been on this forum longer than some posters have been alive.
From all of the Allan Houston "he's coming back" tours, to Eddy Curry/Jamal Crawford era.
Mike D'antoni, Mike Woodson. That Larry Brown experience.

Every year, I pretty much listened to ESPN and all the pundits talk poorly of the Knicks odds of a winning season.
A couple of moments, when we had "no chance" to beat the Heat with Melo, Amare, Chandler (amare famously punched a fire extinguisher, extinguishing our chances) this side story there was the uneven officiating LeBron has enjoyed in his career. From Wade getting no T, no foul call at all after throwing Bibby's shoe in the stands (should have been a brawl, but obviously we had a team of softies) to Tyson setting a legal screen on LeBron, who flops and draws a flagrant foul.

All this to say, I hear the media being VERY positive about this team.
We have KAT, he is very good. When he is good, we are good. I get all that.
However I can't say that I have seen a good team on the court yet this season.

I just don't see it.
Brunson is not dominating and devastating.
I am not seeing us have a big man out wrestle two from the other team giving us the ball with an open man.
I am not seeing quick feet on the perimeter.

I am seeing PnR destroy us.
I am seeing zone defense stymieing us.
I am seeing ballyhooed and well compensated players putting up weak performances, inconsistent shooting, poor defense.
I am seeing absolutely no resistance at the rim like it's a diddy party at 3am.

The record looks good for the moment. It feels hollow. I don't feel any identity from the team aside from Hart trying to be a glue.
We overpaid for Bridges.
We lost DDV who was a big part of chemistry with Brunson.
OG went from an asset to a bloated contract (Knicks tax)

Unless something actually changes, this feels like a team that could see itself in a play-in situation.

LMAO WHAT?!

Some of you doomers are insane. A team that's top 5 in Net Rating is going to somehow find it's way in the play in.. Do you even hear yourself?

[seren]

No. They just don't have a bench to mitigate the starters. A top-heavy roster, but it needs balance. They don't have that, and it needs to be addressed.

Also, a coach that doesn't run awful drop coverage when the league is averaging 36 3's per game.

The bench in limited minutes has a positive plus/minus. I won’t claim they are world beaters but McBride and Precious had decent runs last year so we have a good idea what they can provide. Payne and Shamet are so-so players but had some good experience for past playoff teams. We have limited idea what rookie players can provide since they get no burn. It would have been ideal if they got minutes when we had an easier schedule. We certainly had enough blowouts as well as injuries that were opportunities but you know the coach.

[Wildcat]

No. They're just not a Tier A team right now. Listen, a Tier B team made the Finals last season, so anything is possible. But right now until they work out what's going on internally or decide Thibs is the problem, they are a Tier B team. They should not be mention in the same breath as OKC, Cleveland, or Boston, who are in my view Tier A teams.

[Knicksfan1992]

Just for reference the Dallas Mavericks were 23-17 on January 14th last year. People were grumbling for them to possibly shake things up or that Luka was going to maybe ask out. Instead they ironed out some weaknesses on the margins with a couple of small trades and made a run to the finals around two offense first stars who had not played a lot together yet...

Everyone needs to relax . You all really don't handle expectations well. The team's not perfect but no team in the league is. Especially, with the new CBA and how restrictive it is...

[JayTWill]

I don't know if they are overrated or not but considering they were a 2nd round playoff team with all their youth and a surplus of picks 2 years ago then they traded away all their youth just to be 2nd round playoff team again if after trading away almost all the picks available to be traded they are still a 2nd round playoff team then something clearly went wrong.

Seeing that they are behind teams like Cleveland, Boston and OKC who either have more youth, more assets or both is a bit concerning as they more ways to improve and then there are up and coming teams like the Rockets and Magic that could surpass them as well if they haven't already.

I wouldn't put them as a true contender at the moment and i'm not sure if a coaching change or roster changes around the edges will get them there. I don't think Thibs and this roster are a good fit but I have thought that for a while now. Giving a defensive minded coach with limited creativity and adaptability an offensively talented core with a few too many limited defenders is a bad marriage.

At this point I would try to add a few more defenders around the core even if it lowered the offensive ceiling of the team. If Thibs doesn't get the group past the 2nd round again it's time to move on. I'm just hoping none of the players completely breakdown before we get to that point.

[thebuzzardman]

Guess my answer

[thebuzzardman]

I have been a fan of this team for years, been on this forum longer than some posters have been alive.
From all of the Allan Houston "he's coming back" tours, to Eddy Curry/Jamal Crawford era.
Mike D'antoni, Mike Woodson. That Larry Brown experience.

Every year, I pretty much listened to ESPN and all the pundits talk poorly of the Knicks odds of a winning season.
A couple of moments, when we had "no chance" to beat the Heat with Melo, Amare, Chandler (amare famously punched a fire extinguisher, extinguishing our chances) this side story there was the uneven officiating LeBron has enjoyed in his career. From Wade getting no T, no foul call at all after throwing Bibby's shoe in the stands (should have been a brawl, but obviously we had a team of softies) to Tyson setting a legal screen on LeBron, who flops and draws a flagrant foul.

All this to say, I hear the media being VERY positive about this team.
We have KAT, he is very good. When he is good, we are good. I get all that.
However I can't say that I have seen a good team on the court yet this season.

I just don't see it.
Brunson is not dominating and devastating.
I am not seeing us have a big man out wrestle two from the other team giving us the ball with an open man.
I am not seeing quick feet on the perimeter.

I am seeing PnR destroy us.
I am seeing zone defense stymieing us.
I am seeing ballyhooed and well compensated players putting up weak performances, inconsistent shooting, poor defense.
I am seeing absolutely no resistance at the rim like it's a diddy party at 3am.

The record looks good for the moment. It feels hollow. I don't feel any identity from the team aside from Hart trying to be a glue.
We overpaid for Bridges.
We lost DDV who was a big part of chemistry with Brunson.
OG went from an asset to a bloated contract (Knicks tax)

Unless something actually changes, this feels like a team that could see itself in a play-in situation.

LMAO WHAT?!

Some of you doomers are insane. A team that's top 5 in Net Rating is going to somehow find it's way in the play in.. Do you even hear yourself?

Knicks are going to wind up 7th or 8th seed. Book it.

They haven't even suffered the first major injury yet, and that is coming for OG or KAT any day now.

[thebuzzardman]

Just for reference the Dallas Mavericks were 23-17 on January 14th last year. People were grumbling for them to possibly shake things up or that Luka was going to maybe ask out. Instead they ironed out some weaknesses on the margins with a couple of small trades and made a run to the finals around two offense first stars who had not played a lot together yet...

Everyone needs to relax . You all really don't handle expectations well. The team's not perfect but no team in the league is. Especially, with the new CBA and how restrictive it is...

Adding Gafford and PJ Washington weren't minor moves.

And the Knicks have very little ability to make moves like that.

Unless you think that Cam Whitmore and Jonas Valanciunas are saving the season, and that's if those teams would even trade them to the Knicks