2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[Stickmann]

I have SGA as MVP so far. Jokic has better raw stats and Advanced stats but the difference in wins is too high (while the stats are close enough).

Shai beats him in all the single season advanced stats (not cumulative ones as it takes into account previous years)

No he isn't atm.

I believe SGA beats him EPM, lebron, ws.

Jokic beats him in ws/48, bpm, per.

You could use darko and Jokic leading in that.

WS, ws/48, lebron and epm are pretty close. It could flip depending if one has a terrible game and an L and the other has a monster game. SGA has been ahead of Jokic in epm, lebron, and ws nearly all season. Although it isn't a huge gap. He was ahead of him in WS/48 until about a week or so ago. There isn't a huge gap in that either.

They are pretty much 1 and 2 in most of the advance stats. In some, almost neck to neck.

The fact that it isn't a huge gap shows how high of a level SGA is playing. Jokic is usually leading the league in these by a good margin. Not this season.

WS, BPM, and PER are all purely box score based, calling them advanced stats is a stretch. Darko takes into account all previous seasons as well as this one. Single season RAPM has Shai leading. Single season Impact metrics have jokic below Shai universally. Jokic is a better player for sure though.

[Special_Puppy]

Shai beats him in all the single season advanced stats (not cumulative ones as it takes into account previous years)

No he isn't atm.

I believe SGA beats him EPM, lebron, ws.

Jokic beats him in ws/48, bpm, per.

You could use darko and Jokic leading in that.

WS, ws/48, lebron and epm are pretty close. It could flip depending if one has a terrible game and an L and the other has a monster game. SGA has been ahead of Jokic in epm, lebron, and ws nearly all season. Although it isn't a huge gap. He was ahead of him in WS/48 until about a week or so ago. There isn't a huge gap in that either.

They are pretty much 1 and 2 in most of the advance stats. In some, almost neck to neck.

The fact that it isn't a huge gap shows how high of a level SGA is playing. Jokic is usually leading the league in these by a good margin. Not this season.

WS, BPM, and PER are all purely box score based, calling them advanced stats is a stretch. Darko takes into account all previous seasons as well as this one. Single season RAPM has Shai leading. Single season Impact metrics have jokic below Shai universally. Jokic is a better player for sure though.

What single season impact metrics are there besides LEBRON and the old version of EPM?

[kazyv]

Shai beats him in all the single season advanced stats (not cumulative ones as it takes into account previous years)

No he isn't atm.

I believe SGA beats him EPM, lebron, ws.

Jokic beats him in ws/48, bpm, per.

You could use darko and Jokic leading in that.

WS, ws/48, lebron and epm are pretty close. It could flip depending if one has a terrible game and an L and the other has a monster game. SGA has been ahead of Jokic in epm, lebron, and ws nearly all season. Although it isn't a huge gap. He was ahead of him in WS/48 until about a week or so ago. There isn't a huge gap in that either.

They are pretty much 1 and 2 in most of the advance stats. In some, almost neck to neck.

The fact that it isn't a huge gap shows how high of a level SGA is playing. Jokic is usually leading the league in these by a good margin. Not this season.

WS, BPM, and PER are all purely box score based, calling them advanced stats is a stretch. Darko takes into account all previous seasons as well as this one. Single season RAPM has Shai leading. Single season Impact metrics have jokic below Shai universally. Jokic is a better player for sure though.

defensive WS are based on def rating which is not purely box score based

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_rating

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

[Special_Puppy]

When was the last time we had a NBA MVP race where the top 2 candidates had cases as strong as Jokic and SGA?

[Snake3]

Shai beats him in all the single season advanced stats (not cumulative ones as it takes into account previous years)

No he isn't atm.

I believe SGA beats him EPM, lebron, ws.

Jokic beats him in ws/48, bpm, per.

You could use darko and Jokic leading in that.

WS, ws/48, lebron and epm are pretty close. It could flip depending if one has a terrible game and an L and the other has a monster game. SGA has been ahead of Jokic in epm, lebron, and ws nearly all season. Although it isn't a huge gap. He was ahead of him in WS/48 until about a week or so ago. There isn't a huge gap in that either.

They are pretty much 1 and 2 in most of the advance stats. In some, almost neck to neck.

The fact that it isn't a huge gap shows how high of a level SGA is playing. Jokic is usually leading the league in these by a good margin. Not this season.

WS, BPM, and PER are all purely box score based, calling them advanced stats is a stretch. Darko takes into account all previous seasons as well as this one. Single season RAPM has Shai leading. Single season Impact metrics have jokic below Shai universally. Jokic is a better player for sure though.

With RAPM? With RAPM, plenty of people are above Jokic. Even Zach LaVine and Isaiah Joe this season haha. He isn't even top 10. He is top 2 when it comes offense though. Garland is number 1.

SGA has been leading RAPM for two seasons in a row. What other metrics would you use? I know every metric has their flaws. Thinking basketball has its own, but I don't know it since you have to pay for it.

It does show you that SGA is playing at very high lvl. It shows with the eye tests and advance metrics. This isn't like the other years.

Like in both lebron and epm, it's pretty tight. I don't think it was like that the other seasons.

[Special_Puppy]

No he isn't atm.

I believe SGA beats him EPM, lebron, ws.

Jokic beats him in ws/48, bpm, per.

You could use darko and Jokic leading in that.

WS, ws/48, lebron and epm are pretty close. It could flip depending if one has a terrible game and an L and the other has a monster game. SGA has been ahead of Jokic in epm, lebron, and ws nearly all season. Although it isn't a huge gap. He was ahead of him in WS/48 until about a week or so ago. There isn't a huge gap in that either.

They are pretty much 1 and 2 in most of the advance stats. In some, almost neck to neck.

The fact that it isn't a huge gap shows how high of a level SGA is playing. Jokic is usually leading the league in these by a good margin. Not this season.

WS, BPM, and PER are all purely box score based, calling them advanced stats is a stretch. Darko takes into account all previous seasons as well as this one. Single season RAPM has Shai leading. Single season Impact metrics have jokic below Shai universally. Jokic is a better player for sure though.

With RAPM? With RAPM, plenty of people are above Jokic. Even Zach LaVine and Isaiah Joe this season haha. He isn't even top 10. He is top 2 when it comes offense though. Garland is number 1.

SGA has been leading RAPM for two seasons in a row. What other metrics would you use? I know every metric has their flaws. Thinking basketball has its own, but I don't know it since you have to pay for it.

It does show you that SGA is playing at very high lvl. It shows with the eye tests and advance metrics. This isn't like the other years.

Like in both lebron and epm, it's pretty tight. I don't think it was like that the other seasons.

Single Season RAPM is pretty garbage. You really want to use at least 3 years of lineup data (FWIW 3-year RAPM also really likes SGA )

[Snake3]

When was the last time we had a NBA MVP race where the top 2 candidates had cases as strong as Jokic and SGA?

I feel like there is a difference in discourse depending where you go. In the media, they don't take a look at advance stats as much as in the forums.

[tmorgan]

When was the last time we had a NBA MVP race where the top 2 candidates had cases as strong as Jokic and SGA?

I feel like there is a difference in discourse depending where you go. In the media, they don't take a look at advance stats as much as in the forums.

I mean, the Embiid/Jokic race was pretty close between two awesome players. Just cuz I think the wrong guy won doesn’t change the fact that Biid was a monster, too.

[famicommander]

When was the last time we had a NBA MVP race where the top 2 candidates had cases as strong as Jokic and SGA?

I feel like there is a difference in discourse depending where you go. In the media, they don't take a look at advance stats as much as in the forums.

I mean, the Embiid/Jokic race was pretty close between two awesome players. Just cuz I think the wrong guy won doesn’t change the fact that Biid was a monster, too.

Embiid had an incredible season but that doesn't mean it was close. It was purely narrative-driven.

Jokic had considerably better stats, he played in more games, he had a better winning percentage (because the Sixers actually had a better record when Embiid sat out than when he played that season due to Harden), he finished with a higher seed, he played in a tougher conference.

Flat out, straight up, there are absolutely zero coherent arguments in favor of Embiid winning it over Jokic that season. It happened because people didn't want Jokic to get three in a row because other greats like were previously denied that honor, and because Perkins and Smith at ESPN made it about race. It's a similar scenario to baseball writers refusing to let anyone be voted into the HOF unanimously on the first ballot simply because Babe Ruth had been denied that honor decades before. People voted with their hearts instead of their brains.

At least SGA has a considerably better record than Jokic this season, but beyond that he has no argument either. Jokic is top 4 in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and 3 point shooting right now. He's the best player in the world by a considerable margin and if he doesn't win this MVP it will be for the same reasons he didn't win it two years ago.

[Jaqua92]

Lol

[tmorgan]

He’s right, though. Jokic has been considerably better than everyone else for five years straight.

Just goes to show it’s a team sport. Even the best player in the league isn’t winning squat without good support.

[Rdude22]

I feel like there is a difference in discourse depending where you go. In the media, they don't take a look at advance stats as much as in the forums.

I mean, the Embiid/Jokic race was pretty close between two awesome players. Just cuz I think the wrong guy won doesn’t change the fact that Biid was a monster, too.

Embiid had an incredible season but that doesn't mean it was close. It was purely narrative-driven.

Jokic had considerably better stats, he played in more games, he had a better winning percentage (because the Sixers actually had a better record when Embiid sat out than when he played that season due to Harden), he finished with a higher seed, he played in a tougher conference.

Flat out, straight up, there are absolutely zero coherent arguments in favor of Embiid winning it over Jokic that season. It happened because people didn't want Jokic to get three in a row because other greats like were previously denied that honor, and because Perkins and Smith at ESPN made it about race. It's a similar scenario to baseball writers refusing to let anyone be voted into the HOF unanimously on the first ballot simply because Babe Ruth had been denied that honor decades before. People voted with their hearts instead of their brains.

At least SGA has a considerably better record than Jokic this season, but beyond that he has no argument either. Jokic is top 4 in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and 3 point shooting right now. He's the best player in the world by a considerable margin and if he doesn't win this MVP it will be for the same reasons he didn't win it two years ago.

Ironically you’re creating a narrative just because people don’t agree with you that Jokic should be winning 6 straight MVPs

Anytime an argument starts with “[insert top 3-5 player] has no argument” and “anyone who disagrees are incoherent race-baiters…” you just know you’re hearing from an objective, pragmatic, non-fanboy

Gonna be sooo messed up tho when SGA wins MVP because he’s black, and probably Canadian too. Drake and Ryan Reynolds are putting in the call to the commish; but we in realgm see right through the agenda

[Exp0sed]

Jokic has been a tier above anyone in any of the past 4-5 seasons we're discussing here
with that said, SGA is clearly better this season, not because of team record but because he has played significantly more games

with Jokic missing another one (his 6th), SGA has basically played 20% more games. has Jokic been 20% better than SGA this season per game? the answer is a resounding no, when u add that to the the huge gap in team record, Jokic doesn't have a real case atm for MVP

no1 thinks SGA is as good as Jokic (at least not yet) but he's most def the MVP this season at this point in time

u guys know i'm a Jokic advocate\stan, I really love how the dude plays and his how he carries himself on and off the court
I thought he should have won the 3 he did win, plus that ridicilious egregious Joe L pity MVP that clearly should have been his (and I advocated for him winning it, in past iteretations of this thread time and time again) but not this season.

SGA is having a better season than any of the guys who contended with Jokic in the last 5, his team is a-top the standings with a ridicilous record and he's played in every game, while Jokic has missed 6

SGA is leading rn and it's not that close either, still half a season to go but SGA has to have some really bad stretch or miss signifcant time for it to become a race again

[Stickmann]

Tatum’s mvp campaign was very short lived. Reading through the earlier mvp threads back in October and LOL

[_NoMas]

If SGA can beat the Cavs tonight without either Chet or Hartenstein… damn that would be an impressive cap in his MVP claim

[MoneyTalks41890]

If SGA can beat the Cavs tonight without either Chet or Hartenstein… damn that would be an impressive cap in his MVP claim

If. Unfortunately I expect Mobley to the one to show off his MVP credentials tonight against Jaylin Williams and Branden Carlson. Who? Exactly.

[Special_Puppy]

If SGA can beat the Cavs tonight without either Chet or Hartenstein… damn that would be an impressive cap in his MVP claim

If. Unfortunately I expect Mobley to the one to show off his MVP credentials tonight against Jaylin Williams and Branden Carlson. Who? Exactly.

I think you guys are still favored

[OkcSinceSGA]

He’s right, though. Jokic has been considerably better than everyone else for five years straight.

Just goes to show it’s a team sport. Even the best player in the league isn’t winning squat without good support.

That was the case prior to this year. SGA also has gone to a completely different level, and THIS year they are neck and neck. He's had a monster leap on defense, impact metrics across the board.

[scrabbarista]

It's pretty tight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Special_Puppy]

Punched my son because Jokic missed his 6th game of the season