Retro Player of the Year 2005-06 UPDATE — Dwyane Wade

[One_and_Done]

Kobe's performance this year is not even close to one of the biggest carry jobs. There are all sorts of reasons for this. The first one is that wins get harder to get at the highest levels. It's much harder to turn a 40 win team into a 60 win team, than a 20 win team into a 40 win team.

There are alot of other reasons too of course. He had Odom, a guy who would easily be the 2nd best player on many superior carry jobs like the 09 & 10 Cavs, the 02 & 03 Spurs, the 94 Rockets, etc. Too much is made of Smush being a bad player, but alot of stars carry line-ups with bad players. You know who else carried a team with a trash starter? Pau this exact year; taking the Grizz to 49 wins with a center rotation of Jake T/L.Wright, neither of whom are really NBA players. The point guard rotation was weak too: Atkins or the corpse of Mighty Mouse. I think Pau might deserve more consideration than Kobe this year honestly, he had a much more impressive carry job.

Smush was a bad player, but Kwame and pre-injury Mihm were both solid big man starters for the time. D.George and L Walton were decent bench players. I don't think much of Brian Cook, but on the whole it was a passable team given they had Odom. It's the top end talent that drives the team, especially back then.

I also find it odd to say 'Duncan was 4th in the RS, and Wade was 6th, but I move Wade all the way to #1 for his stellar PS play'. It doesn't make much sense because Duncan played better in the PS than Wade.

[ShaqAttac]

DUNCAN
he win 63 with great D and then had great O in the offs and took mavs to 7. OnD and ILS made best args tbh. it also pretty sus how most wade 1 folk leavin duncan out of top 5. are ya just tryna make wade win?
NASH
Almost make finals and making GOAT O winning 50 without amare. the wowy crazy too
BRON
ny made best arg and look like he play better than wade. wins 50 and a playoff series without help. kob great but he wins less with more help prob. idt ppg means he better than nash tho. Nash leading GOAT O over and over. 21 Bron ain't.
KOBE
Scored alot and almost took out nash ig
WADE
wins chip and goes crazy in finals. look like he was mid in rs and playoffs but i can't put dirk higher when he choke hard to lose the chip.

[Djoker]

Kobe's performance this year is not even close to one of the biggest carry jobs. There are all sorts of reasons for this. The first one is that wins get harder to get at the highest levels. It's much harder to turn a 40 win team into a 60 win team, than a 20 win team into a 40 win team.

There are alot of other reasons too of course. He had Odom, a guy who would easily be the 2nd best player on many superior carry jobs like the 09 & 10 Cavs, the 02 & 03 Spurs, the 94 Rockets, etc. Too much is made of Smush being a bad player, but alot of stars carry line-ups with bad players. You know who else carried a team with a trash starter? Pau this exact year; taking the Grizz to 49 wins with a center rotation of Jake T/L.Wright, neither of whom are really NBA players. The point guard rotation was weak too: Atkins or the corpse of Mighty Mouse. I think Pau might deserve more consideration than Kobe this year honestly, he had a much more impressive carry job.

Smush was a bad player, but Kwame and pre-injury Mihm were both solid big man starters for the time. D.George and L Walton were decent bench players. I don't think much of Brian Cook, but on the whole it was a passable team given they had Odom. It's the top end talent that drives the team, especially back then.

I also find it odd to say 'Duncan was 4th in the RS, and Wade was 6th, but I move Wade all the way to #1 for his stellar PS play'. It doesn't make much sense because Duncan played better in the PS than Wade.

No one except Odom should be touching a starting spot on a good team. Smush, Kwame, Luke, George, Mihm... lol. And even Odom; he's a good player but he averaged 40 mpg and put up roughly 15/9/5. That's solid but far from elite. He's not a star. Kobe leading that team to 48-win pace is just miraculous.

Nobody really pulled away in the RS (Kobe and Dirk had a bit of separation IMO) so Wade dominating the PS and winning the title leapfrogs everyone. That's not weird considering PS performance weighs more heavily in my criteria and then there's winning the title too which is the biggest accomplishment. This project isn't Best Player in 2006. It's the Player of the Year in 2006. As good as Duncan was and I have no problem calling him the best player in the world; he wasn't the defining player of 2006. And so despite being arguably the best, voting him at #1 goes against the spirit of this project to me.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Dwyane Wade - 2nd Team All-NBA. Wade already took the mantle from Shaq and became the leader of the Heat and it became obvious in the PS. His performance in the PS carrying a relatively weak roster to the title (especially in the Finals where Shaq played poorly) makes him a relatively easy #1 for me. The Heat were a sizable underdog winning the last two series without homecourt and with a big SRS disadvantage thanks to transcendent play from Wade. Averaged 27.2/5.7/6.7 on 57.7 %TS (+4.1 rTS) in the RS then 28.4/5.9/5.7 on 59.3 %TS (+7.1 rTS) in the PS.

2. Dirk Nowitzki - 1st Team All-NBA. Probably should have been the MVP given the Mavs' great record and lack of secondary star. He was also fantastic in the WC playoffs leading the Mavs to the title round. He looked like the frontrunner until he had several poor games in the Finals. He rightfully deserves some blame for this loss but his overall body of work this season beating several strong contenders behind excellent play still earns him this spot. Averaged 26.6/9.0/2.8 on 58.9 %TS (+5.3 rTS) in the RS then 27.0/11.7/2.9 on 59.6 %TS (+7.9 rTS) in the PS.

3. Kobe Bryant - 1st Team All-NBA. Authored one of the best carryjobs ever considering just how poor that Lakers roster was. Kobe was scoring >35 ppg on positive efficiency carrying huge offensive loads every single night and willing that team to victories. Even in the PS, winning 3 games against the Suns was major overachievement. Kobe was arguably the best individual player in the game. Averaged 35.4/5.3/4.5 on 55.9 %TS (+2.4 rTS) in the RS then 27.9/6.3/5.1 on 58.7 %TS (+6.0 rTS) in the PS.

4. Tim Duncan - 2nd Team All-NBA. Had a bit of a down RS statistically (negative efficiency!) but still kind of underrated finishing just 9th in MVP voting. He also had a transcendent postseason putting up some seriously great offensive numbers although there are some signs the Spurs' defense wasn't up to par. He has a good case as the best player in the game but his season wasn't defining for this year losing in the 2nd round where Dirk probably played him to a standstill and having a subpar RS. Averaged 18.6/11.0/3.2 on 52.3 %TS (-1.2 rTS) in the RS then 25.8/10.5/3.3 on 62.5 %TS (+9.9 rTS) in the PS.

5. Steve Nash 1st Team All-NBA. MVP. I'm not sure I would have given Nash the MVP but I can see why the voters went that way with Amare out for the year (and JJ traded) and Nash still steering the ship very very well producing the 3rd best SRS after the Spurs and Mavs. Most importantly, the Suns' defense improved while the offense remained transcedent despite lesser offensive talent to work with. The Suns posted a +5.3 rORtg in the RS and +8.9 rORtg in the PS. Nash averaged 18.8/4.2/10.5 on 63.2 %TS (+9.6 rTS) in the RS then 20.4/3.7/10.2 on 61.5 %TS (+9.1 rTS) in the PS.

HM:

Lebron James - 1st Team All-NBA. His RS is a bit overrated in a sense that the offense at +1.6 rORtg was just 9th best in the league and worse than the Lakers'. Lebron was still within striking distance after the RS though and after the 1st round he had a decent case even for the #1 spot but then he had a subpar series against Detroit losing in the 2nd round while not performing well. The team offense completely fell off to -3.7 rORtg which is even worse than it looks considering that the Pistons' defense struggled against both the Bucks and the Heat in the PS; Cavs were -9.8 cORtg which is measured relative to PS opponents of Detroit. Basically it's only really the Cavs that struggled against the Pistons' defense. It's close and I can see Lebron over Nash and had to mull that one over but at this point, I just trust Nash to lead my offense more than I trust Lebron based on what happened against Detroit and Lebron at this point isn't a significant difference maker on defense to give him a leg up over Nash.

OPOY

1. Dwyane Wade

2. Dirk Nowitzki

3. Kobe Bryant

HM: Steve Nash

OPOY ballot mostly follow from POY. None of the top 3 were huge defensive forces and so most of their impact comes from offense.

DPOY

1. Ben Wallace - 1st Team All-Defense. DPOY. Still anchors a strong defense although there are signs of waning. PS team defense also not awe-inspiring at all.

2. Kevin Garnett - 2nd Team All-Defense. Still a force on that end.

3. Tim Duncan - 2nd Team All-Defense. Still elite rim protection overall but iffy defensive performance in the PS.

[capfan33]

Lot of interesting discussion so far that's made me reconsider things.

1. Wade- While I don't think he has much of an argument for being the best in the regular season, his playoff run culminating in a historic finals reigns supreme in a year without an obvious player that stands out individually. And he was still a top-5ish player in the regular season.

I do think his finals gets overrated to an extent because of how poor the Dallas defense was, especially at the guard position, as well as the fact that they were apparently focused on containing Shaq first and foremost, but still impressive of course.

2. Dirk- Incredible regular season and first three rounds of the playoffs, unfortunate that he laid a goose egg in the finals. But if the season ended before the finals he pretty easily would be first. His win against the Spurs is an all-time level performance and is even more impressive with a pretty marginal supporting cast.

3. Nash- Think Duncan has a strong case mostly on his production in the Mavs series, but it's one of Duncan's weakest years on both ends again peak Nash who also played well against the Mavs, and he also got upset, so I think Nash gets a slight edge here.

4. Duncan- Had incredible box score production against a mediocre Mavs frontline and lost as a favorite while having one of the worst years of his prime on both ends. Despite this I still think he has a good argument over Nash but I ultimately can't get there.

5. Kobe- I considered putting him as high as 3rd due to the historic scoring and floor raising but he really didn't do much of note in the playoffs and despite his scoring volume I think he was still a bit worse of a player compared to Nash or Duncan. But he definitely deserves a spot on the list, although Lebron was a serious consideration.

OPOY

1. Nash- One of the greatest offensive peaks ever leading the historic Suns offense. As much as I like Dirk, think Nash is clearly #1 as a perimeter playmaker and ballhandler, even on an offensively oriented roster.

2. Dirk- Very close between him and Kobe but Dirks playoff performance gives him the edge imo.

3. Kobe- Historic regular season scoring is more noteworthy than what Lebron did imo even though you could probably already make an argument for Lebron as a holistic offensive player.

DPOY

1. Ben Wallace- Somewhat of a down year for DPOY and with Duncan having an off-year I like Wallace the most here of the alternatives.

2. Duncan- While he was uncharacteristically bad even in the playoffs it's still prime Tim Duncan. Also to be fair he never could do much against Dirk specifically 1on1, not really the matchup for him regardless of year.

3. Marion- Would vote someone like KG or Kirilenko if they had made the playoffs, but they didn't. No one on the Heat or Mavs is particularly meaningful as a defender and out of the field I think Marion's efforts on a otherwise offensively oriented Suns team is most noteworthy. Also think Kidd is an interesting choice here, but Marion is more accomplished and impactful imo.

[One_and_Done]

Kobe's performance this year is not even close to one of the biggest carry jobs. There are all sorts of reasons for this. The first one is that wins get harder to get at the highest levels. It's much harder to turn a 40 win team into a 60 win team, than a 20 win team into a 40 win team.

There are alot of other reasons too of course. He had Odom, a guy who would easily be the 2nd best player on many superior carry jobs like the 09 & 10 Cavs, the 02 & 03 Spurs, the 94 Rockets, etc. Too much is made of Smush being a bad player, but alot of stars carry line-ups with bad players. You know who else carried a team with a trash starter? Pau this exact year; taking the Grizz to 49 wins with a center rotation of Jake T/L.Wright, neither of whom are really NBA players. The point guard rotation was weak too: Atkins or the corpse of Mighty Mouse. I think Pau might deserve more consideration than Kobe this year honestly, he had a much more impressive carry job.

Smush was a bad player, but Kwame and pre-injury Mihm were both solid big man starters for the time. D.George and L Walton were decent bench players. I don't think much of Brian Cook, but on the whole it was a passable team given they had Odom. It's the top end talent that drives the team, especially back then.

I also find it odd to say 'Duncan was 4th in the RS, and Wade was 6th, but I move Wade all the way to #1 for his stellar PS play'. It doesn't make much sense because Duncan played better in the PS than Wade.

No one except Odom should be touching a starting spot on a good team. Smush, Kwame, Luke, George, Mihm... lol. And even Odom; he's a good player but he averaged 40 mpg and put up roughly 15/9/5. That's solid but far from elite. He's not a star. Kobe leading that team to 48-win pace is just miraculous.

Nobody really pulled away in the RS (Kobe and Dirk had a bit of separation IMO) so Wade dominating the PS and winning the title leapfrogs everyone. That's not weird considering PS performance weighs more heavily in my criteria and then there's winning the title too which is the biggest accomplishment. This project isn't Best Player in 2006. It's the Player of the Year in 2006. As good as Duncan was and I have no problem calling him the best player in the world; he wasn't the defining player of 2006. And so despite being arguably the best, voting him at #1 goes against the spirit of this project to me.

Aside from Odom and Kobe none of those are guys you want starting on a good team, but there were passable starters/rotation guys on that team (which was not a good team anyhow).

Odom wasn't technically an all-star, but he was all-star calibre. If he'd stayed in Miami with Wade he'd have accumulated a bunch of all-star appearances. Instead he went to the deep West and eventually became a 6th man on a stacked team.

I look at it as:
1) Wade wasn't close to the best RS player
2) He didn't play better in the PS than guys like Duncan (or even Dirk and Nash holistically), so that can't vault him ahead, and
3) The reason they won the title was because the Mavs choked. In particular, their Ortg fell off a cliff in the finals, and I don't see how we can credit much of that to Wade. If the Mavs had played like that vs the Spurs or Suns, then those teams win thr title.

It just seems like winning bias to me.

[Djoker]

Aside from Odom and Kobe none of those are guys you want starting on a good team, but there were passable starters/rotation guys on that team (which was not a good team anyhow).

Odom wasn't technically an all-star, but he was all-star calibre. If he'd stayed in Miami with Wade he'd have accumulated a bunch of all-star appearances. Instead he went to the deep West and eventually became a 6th man on a stacked team.

I look at it as:
1) Wade wasn't close to the best RS player
2) He didn't play better in the PS than guys like Duncan (or even Dirk and Nash holistically), so that can't vault him ahead, and
3) The reason they won the title was because the Mavs choked. In particular, their Ortg fell off a cliff in the finals, and I don't see how we can credit much of that to Wade. If the Mavs had played like that vs the Spurs or Suns, then those teams win thr title.

It just seems like winning bias to me.

They really weren't passable starters though. They're horrible NBA players who wouldn't get serious minutes on pretty much any other good team. Of course Bynum would eventually become good and Vujacic would become a decent bench player but in 2006, that team really was complete trash outside of Kobe and Odom.

Odom is a sub-all star/good starter. He was never consistent enough to be a star.

Obviously winning is part of the equation because it's Player of the Year. Leading your team to a title is the biggest accomplishment. If Duncan plays as well as Wade but loses in the 2nd round, he's a much worse candidate for #1. That's how it works.

[One_and_Done]

Yeh, I disagree. Duncan played better than Wade, then loses because his team didn't play well enough. Wade wins because the Mavs played much worse than they did against SA or Phoenix, mainly their Ortg fell off a cliff. Is it even remotely plausible to attribute that to Wade? It would be like attributing the Sixers elite D to Iverson.

Odom was the 2nd best player on a Miami playoff team that was poised to get better. If he stays there then he makes a bunch of EC all-star teams. He was certainly putting up all-star type stats.

Smush was a bad NBA player, and Cook was a bench specialist. Neither should ever start on a good team. The Lakers weren't a good team though, and plenty of stars have carried bad players in the line-up before. Mihm and Kwame were both decent starters, and were at various points in their careers sought after. It's unfortunate Mihm got hurt and his career was basically over afterwards, but Kwame started about half the games he played over his 12 year career, and was paid the MLE or higher more than once. He was a bust as a #1 pick, but a solid role player. There's a reason the Lakers moved him for Caron Butler and got better. George and Walton were solid bench players.

[B-Mitch 30]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Steve Nash

Despite losing Amar’e, a player who would prove himself to be valuable without Nash with the Knicks, the Suns remained one of the best offenses in the league and won 54 games, before nearly making the Finals. In my opinion, Nash deserved the MVP he got this year.

2. Dwyane Wade

Besides Wade, Udonis Haslem was the only Heat starter not plagued by injury this season, as Flash clearly overtook Shaq as the best player on the team and led Miami to the championship. Besides his great scoring, Wade was 11th in the NBA in assists, and one of the best guard defenders ever, helping lead the Heat on who knows how many fast breaks.

3. Dirk Nowitzki

Dirk’s regular season wasn’t as good as next year, but unlike 2007, he didn’t have the misfortune of running into his old coach’s team. Even so, it was a marquee season for the German, as he won the three-point contest and came within a Gary Payton game winner of going up 3-0 in the Finals.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Ben Wallace

Though Detroit became more of an offense focused team this season (and a great one at that) their defense was still one of the best in the league, and I think Ben has as good a case as any for being the NBA’s best defender. This was also Ben’s best season after the 2004 championship in general, as it was one of the last times he had a positive eFG in his career.

2. Tim Duncan

The Spurs defense was as good as it had ever been this year, and Duncan finally managed to avoid missing any games, though his offense took a noticeable decline, as he had a negative eFG for whatever reason.

3. Pau Gasol

The Grizzlies defense was probably the best in the league after the Spurs and Pistons, as they were 4th in eFG, 3rd in turnover percentage, and 10th in fouls per field goal attempt. Pau was their best defensive rebounder and shot blocker, while leading them in minutes played. Though the Grizzlies flamed out in the playoffs, Pau would prove himself as one of the best players in the world by leading Spain to become the first country not from the Americas or the former USSR and Yugoslavia to win the FIBA World Cup, taking home MVP.

Player of the Year

1. Dwyane Wade

As mentioned previously, Wade was a tenacious defender, and one of the best offensive players in the regular season, and likely the best in the postseason. I think his Finals victory is enough for me to say he was the best player this year.

2. Dirk Nowitzki

Dirk’s regular season was certainly smoother than Wade’s, as the Mavs had one of the NBA’s best offenses and a good defense. This was probably Dirk’s peak before 2011-2014, and despite his loss, certainly a season to remember.

3. Steve Nash

The Suns defense actually improved a little this year, and some of that was likely because of Nash stepping up, as he posted career highs in rebounds and was one of the best players in the league at drawing offensive fouls.

4. Pau Gasol

Besides his great defense and international accomplishments, Pau was one of the best passing big men ever, and a 20 points per game scorer. However, he loses some points for getting swept in the playoffs, though obviously he would later prove himself as a postseason performer with the Lakers.

5. Rasheed Wallace

In the Eastern Conference, the Pistons were clearly the best team after the Heat, winning 64 games and nearly making the Finals. Rasheed was the best defender in Detroit after Ben Wallace, being 2nd on the Pistons in defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks. Unlike Ben, Rasheed was a huge offensive contributor, being a good passer, decent shooter from two and three, capable offensive rebounder, and having the last positive eFG in his career. He also led the Pistons in plus-minus for what it’s worth.

[therealbig3]

Pau and Rasheed in the top 5 over Kobe, Duncan, Garnett, and LeBron is a super interesting take. Crediting Nash for the Suns' defensive improvement is another interesting take.

Gotta imagine that post is sarcasm lol.

[B-Mitch 30]

I don't think Nash was the main reason the Suns improved defensively, I'm just saying he did provide a little two-way impact.

[therealbig3]

Yeh, I disagree. Duncan played better than Wade, then loses because his team didn't play well enough. Wade wins because the Mavs played much worse than they did against SA or Phoenix, mainly their Ortg fell off a cliff. Is it even remotely plausible to attribute that to Wade? It would be like attributing the Sixers elite D to Iverson.

Odom was the 2nd best player on a Miami playoff team that was poised to get better. If he stays there then he makes a bunch of EC all-star teams. He was certainly putting up all-star type stats.

Smush was a bad NBA player, and Cook was a bench specialist. Neither should ever start on a good team. The Lakers weren't a good team though, and plenty of stars have carried bad players in the line-up before. Mihm and Kwame were both decent starters, and were at various points in their careers sought after. It's unfortunate Mihm got hurt and his career was basically over afterwards, but Kwame started about half the games he played over his 12 year career, and was paid the MLE or higher more than once. He was a bust as a #1 pick, but a solid role player. There's a reason the Lakers moved him for Caron Butler and got better. George and Walton were solid bench players.

Duncan didn't play as well as you're saying. He had maybe the worst RS of his prime, and then followed that up with the worst defensive playoffs of his career. You're just looking at PPG, when his scoring was never the main reason Duncan was an elite player.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 12 approved voters: Djoker, AEnigma, capfan33, Lebronnygoat, ILikeShaiGuys, konr0167, ShaqAttac, penbeast0, B-Mitch 30, Narigo, One_and_Done, and trelos. DJoker, AEnigma, LikeShaiGuys, capfan33, B-Mitch 30, and trelos voted for both Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

2005-06 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Steve Nash (2)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Steve Nash    4   1   0    23    0.767
2. Dwyane Wade  1   2   0   11    0.367
3. Dirk Nowitzki    0   2   3    9    0.300
4. Kobe Bryant    0   1   3    6    0.200
5. Lebron James    1   0   0    5    0.167

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Ben Wallace (3)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Ben Wallace   5   1   0    28    0.933
2. Tim Duncan  1   4   1    18    0.600
3. Kevin Garnett   0   1   1    4    0.133
4. Shawn Marion   0   0   2    2    0.067
5. Rasheed Wallace  0   0   1    1    0.033
5. Pau Gasol  0   0   1    1    0.033

Retro Player of the Year — Dwyane Wade

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Dwyane Wade  6  1  1  1  3   78   0.650
2. Tim Duncan  5  0  0  4  0    62   0.517
3. Dirk Nowitzki   0  6  2  1  2   57   0.475
4. Steve Nash  0  4  5  0  2   55   0.458
5. Lebron James   1  1  3  2  0   38   0.317
6. Kobe Bryant  0  0  1  3  2   16   0.133
7. Pau Gasol  0  0  0  1  0   3   0.025
8. Kevin Garnett   0  0  0  0  2   2   0.017
9. Rasheed Wallace   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.008

In the prior project, there were 23 votes, with no overlap. These are the aggregated results of the two projects across 35 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Dwyane Wade  22  7  1  2  3   283   0.809
2. Dirk Nowitzki   2  16  8  3  4   185   0.529
3. Steve Nash  2  7  7  3  11   124   0.354
4. Kobe Bryant  3  3  6  9  3   111   0.317
5. Lebron James   1  2  10  9  5   106   0.303
6. Tim Duncan  5  0  3  8  1    90   0.257
7. Kevin Garnett   0  0  0  0  7   7   0.020
8. Pau Gasol  0  0  0  1  0   3   0.009
9. Rasheed Wallace   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.003

2007 thread will open shortly.

[Lebronnygoat]

$
1. LeBron James
Most impressive player. He didn’t have the team to have top of the league team success, but individual he makes your team more likely to win at this point in time than any player in the world. Playmaking rivaling Nash, scoring at a top 4 level in the league, and having arguably the best playoff series.
2. Dirk
Top 2 regular season, engineered the best #1/#2 offense with his best players missing 23 games like Howard and Stackhouse. His consistent piece was Terry, who is a good offensive player don’t get me wrong, but the fact Howard is probably a defensive slanted player and the Mavs were a better offense in the games he missed is a moving needle. This offense is what made the Mavs win so many games and have the 3rd SRS. I still don’t think his offensive cast was better than Nash’s, so I’d say their offenses were comparable, but it’s the playoffs where I’d push Dirk over the top. He rose from his regular season self, and had the better playoff offense pre finals, which is fair to do since Nash didn’t even make it all four rounds. Dirk was 26 on +10.9rTS. Insanely impressive nonetheless, Nash was too but wasn’t giving the impact of Dirk.

3. Steve Nash
Maybe most impressive regular season player, it’s him, Dirk and Bron but as a player I pick LeBron and the team success is purely simply due to LeBron’s cast. If people here who care about on off, LeBron’s is better, even on offense, and Dirk may be too. But Nash’s playmaking was one of the top in NBA history, engineered by PBP standards the best offense without Amare, which is insanely impressive. Playoffs was superb.
4. Tim Duncan
I have Wade below him, and I think anchoring a -7 defense with Bowen as your only good defensive impact and perhaps Rasho but important to note he’s playing 18 mpg. Their defense was so much better than their offense which was at a +1. The Spurs also had the best team in the league, which is basically due to defense, so that should give Duncan a lot of merit even for a subpar scoring season. Now the insane part of this is his playoff scoring jumping to insane levels. 28 on +10.2rTS. The teams offense was the best in the playoffs that year, unfortunately the defense was worse than average. Probably goes to show how thin that defense was compared to what you may think. Idk if Duncan is to blame about that, hard to say if he turned into a mid rim protector, didn’t seem like it. Honestly the 1-4 this year is very close and are all interchangeable. I think Wade is just a bit overrated this year…
5. Wade
Certainly not a top 6-7 regular season. Maybe the best playoffs but having one more elite series than Duncan, Nash, or two more than LeBron isn’t gunna move the needle to push him as the best this year.

[ceoofkobefans]

we are in yet ANOTHER year of the 2000s being wildly contested but now we have Dwyane wade starting to peak to replace Shaq, LeBron hitting his prime, Kobe starting his peak, its one of the best years in league history

POY

1. Kobe Bryant

didn't speak about kobe last ballot but with Shaq being traded in the previous season, the Lakers are absolutely terrible outside of kobe, and in the 2005 offseason the Lakers trade their 3rd best player Caron Butler, along with their starting PG Chucky Atkins for Kwame Brown and Laron Profit (who would be cut after playing in 25 games and never play in the NBA again), as well as signing Smush Parker (who up to that point had played 66 games as a rookie in 2003 for the Cavs, played in Greece in 2004, and played 16 games in 2005 for the Pistons and Suns totaling 144 minutes and was waived before the playoffs), giving Kobe a supporting cast of (in order of mpg) Lamar Odom, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm (who missed 23 games), Devean George, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, and 21 y/o 2nd year Sasha Vujacic. despite this laker team being horrific, Kobe still lead the lakers to a 45-37 record (45-35 when he played) and a top 10 offense with a +2.2 rORTG (+3.1 when he played) having one of the greatest scoring seasons in NBA history, averaging 35.4 raw ppg on +2.3 rTS% despite having almost no competent offensive players on the roster and being his teams best spacer, and the Lakers somehow snuck into the PO with the 7th seed where they blew a 3-1 lead to the suns they shouldn't have had, where they lost game 6 despite Kobe having 50 points and had 38 in regulation, and 12 of the Lakers 13 points in OT. there was the whole game 7 situation but it shouldn't had even happened. I could go on and on about how good Kobe was in this season, but since the ballot was closed so early I'll stop here since I'm just doing it for the sake of it.

2. Dwyane Wade

3. Steve Nash

4. Dirk Nowitzki

5. LeBron James

HM: Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Chauncey Billups

OPOY

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Steve Nash
3. Dirk Nowitzki
HM: Dwyane Wade, LeBron James

DPOY

1. Tim Duncan
2. Ben Wallace
3. Shane Battier
HMs: Jason Kidd, Kevin Garnett

[OhayoKD]

Sorry this is late

1. Kobe Bryant

Spoiler:

we are in yet ANOTHER year of the 2000s being wildly contested but now we have Dwyane wade starting to peak to replace Shaq, LeBron hitting his prime, Kobe starting his peak, its one of the best years in league history

POY

1. Kobe Bryant

didn't speak about kobe last ballot but with Shaq being traded in the previous season, the Lakers are absolutely terrible outside of kobe, and in the 2005 offseason the Lakers trade their 3rd best player Caron Butler, along with their starting PG Chucky Atkins for Kwame Brown and Laron Profit (who would be cut after playing in 25 games and never play in the NBA again), as well as signing Smush Parker (who up to that point had played 66 games as a rookie in 2003 for the Cavs, played in Greece in 2004, and played 16 games in 2005 for the Pistons and Suns totaling 144 minutes and was waived before the playoffs), giving Kobe a supporting cast of (in order of mpg) Lamar Odom, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm (who missed 23 games), Devean George, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, and 21 y/o 2nd year Sasha Vujacic. despite this laker team being horrific, Kobe still lead the lakers to a 45-37 record (45-35 when he played) and a top 10 offense with a +2.2 rORTG (+3.1 when he played) having one of the greatest scoring seasons in NBA history, averaging 35.4 raw ppg on +2.3 rTS% despite having almost no competent offensive players on the roster and being his teams best spacer, and the Lakers somehow snuck into the PO with the 7th seed where they blew a 3-1 lead to the suns they shouldn't have had, where they lost game 6 despite Kobe having 50 points and had 38 in regulation, and 12 of the Lakers 13 points in OT. there was the whole game 7 situation but it shouldn't had even happened. I could go on and on about how good Kobe was in this season, but since the ballot was closed so early I'll stop here since I'm just doing it for the sake of it.

2. Tim Duncan

Leads the best RS team with great defense and then leads a +8 playoff team that nearly beats the finalists with a big offensive improvement.

3. Dywane Wade

Best player on champion. Phenomenal finals comeback.

4. Steve Nash

Leads another great offense, beats Kobe despite a lack of bigs

5. LeBron James

Team improves despite losing boozer. Seems like he's already an all-time playmaker. Cavs win 50, havea 56-win "full-strength" team and translate in the playoffs.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Just commenting to say comparing reading through this thread to the one almost 15 years ago is like watching idiocracy take place on realgm in real time. Back then you had one or two obvious troll player fans rigging the vote and using poor logic and reasoning, with most of the good discussion ignoring them. Now you have one or two seemingly unbiased takes and the rest player fans talking past each other. What a dumpster fire this board has become.

Wager none of you even know who elgee is but I’ll bet we never see another one of those here ever again.

[Narigo]

1. Dwayne Wade
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. LeBron James
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Kevin Garnett

Wade and Dirk are top 2 contenders for the top spot. Wade was fantastic in the last two rounds of the playoffs. Despite Shaq not playing great in the finals, Wade managed to carry the team to a championship. Also he was number 1 in a RAPM if I recall. So there is some evidence that he was probably the best player in the regular season. Although I do think Dirk overall was the best in the regular season but his performance in the finals against the Heat drags him down to 2

Kobe was the best offensive player in the league and carried the Lakers offense. Outside of Odom, he didn't really have a good supporting cast. Unfortunately his defense fell off a cliff based on how much energy he used for offense. LeBron wasn't as good offensively as Kobe. But I don't think he was negative there so I will put him over Kobe

Kevin Garnett Anchored a top 10 defense despite not having any strong defensive players on the roster. Also, the Wolves tanked their offense by trading Wally for Davis. If I recall, the Wolves had the same record as the Lakers until the Wally trade happened. Also, Garnett was a better offensive player than Duncan this season. He scored more and had better efficiency carrying bums while Duncan had Parker and Manu

Nash would be in my honorable mention. But I think he gets too much credit for the Suns success without Amare. Shawn Marion was arguably a top 10 player himself this season and Barbosa, Thomas and Diaw were pretty good too

I struggle a little bit to understand how these 5 names have emerged, with no Duncan or Nash. The first thought I had was that you were looking at “ppg” a lot, and sure enough you wrote that KG “scored more” than Duncan. However, when you consider per 100 stats Duncan actually scored more per 100 in the playoffs than Kobe or Wade, and was equal to Lebron. He scored on better efficiency than them in the playoffs too. He did that, while being the best defensive player in the league, whereas Kobe is a negative on D at this point, and Lebron and Wade are very, very far from being the best player in the league on D. I can’t compare him to KG’s playoff scoring per 100 because KG didn’t even make it.

You certainly don’t seem to be ranking these guys on their playoff success, because you have Kobe and KG here, who either missed the playoffs or lost in the first round, and Lebron who progressed no further than Duncan did (but in a worse conference). Nash progressed further than any except your top 2 candidates, and given how Dirk played in the finals I struggle to see the reasoning for putting him ahead. Like, there are reasons to not put Duncan and Nash top 2, but to leave them out of the top 5 completely?

I don’t personally care about RAPM, but was Wade #1? I saw a bunch of advanced stats posted earlier in the thread by Jake, and the only one I recall Wade being #1 in was one form of EPM, and then he wasn’t anything like #1 in the others.

Just looking at KG v.s Duncan in the RS, Duncan is carrying his team to 63 wins while KG’s team won 33, a full 30 games less. When you factor in how much harder it is to win each extra game above a certain point, the discrepancy is actually much bigger than just 30 wins. Ok, KG had a clearly worse supporting cast, but Duncan’s supporting cast wasn’t that great without him. Unfortunately he only missed 2 games this year against weak teams who they beat, but his 05 and 04 support cast was pretty similar and from 04-06 the Spurs were 16-15 in games he missed. It feels odd to put KG in here over Duncan because of his small edge in per 100 stats, given how much worse his team performed, then list Wade and Dirk #1. I can’t tell if you’re weighting the playoffs more or less, because it seems to be given a lot of emphasis for your first 2 choices, and zero emphasis for Duncan or Nash (or Kobe, who is listed despite a bad playoffs). Kobe per 100 had 32-7-6 on 587 TS%, including his game 7 stunt where he pouted and refused to shoot in the last quarter to “make a point”, yet he ranks over Duncan whose PS numbers per 100 were 37-15-5 on 625 TS% while being the best defender in the league.

I also don’t see how Kobe was “the best offensive player in the league”. His Ortg was 114. Dirk had 123, and Nash had 121. If you’re just looking at “ppg” here’s a simplified way to look at that. Kobe is scoring a career best 45.6pp100. He’s really jacking up those shots. But he’s also getting only 5.8ap100. So if we were generous to Kobe, and pretended like every assist only was worth 2 points, then in total he’d be contributing 57.2pp100 to the team. But when you combine Nash’s pp100 and ap100 it comes to 56.3pp100. The difference is Nash is scoring at 632 TS% compared to only 587 TS% for Kobe… and Nash’s team mates are scoring more efficiently thanks to him… and in reality assists lead to more than 2ppg on average, so Nash is actually creating more pp100 than Kobe. That’s a very simplified analysis, but it’s intended to highlight how Kobe really wasn’t generating more pp100 than Nash, and certainly was doing it much less efficiently, which is why his vastly worse Ortg shouldn’t be surprising. You could say “well, Nash had better team mates”, but that breakdown I provided of efficiency and points contributed remains in Nash’s favour even in years like 2010, or 2011 and 2012, where Nash had very little around him. The reality is Nash was just a better offensive player than Kobe.

Its really not that clear cut imo. It could go either way but Kobe does have a better offensive on-off, RAPTOR, and one source of RAPM than Nash. Has far as offensive rating is concerned, Billups has the highest offensive rating in the league and anchored the 4th best offense but he is no where near your top 5

[One_and_Done]

Well, obviously you can't just take Ortg and Drtg as the only way of measuring these things, it's just 1 data point, but the data points together speak pretty loudly against Kobe.

[Hook_Em]

Luke Walton, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown were playoff starters this year.