Re: Jimmy Butler Reiterates Trade Demand During Face-To-Face Meeting With Pat Riley

[RealGM Wiretap]

Jimmy Butler had a face-to-face meeting last week with Pat Riley and reiterated his desire to be traded. Butler added that he will not sign a new contract with the Heat and intends to only use his $52 million player option for 25-26 as a trade maneuver. 

Butler's seven-game suspension ends on Thursday. The Heat are faced with a decision on how to move forward with Butler with either him returning to the roster or a trade. Heat officials will meet later this week to discuss next steps. 

The Heat have engaged with multiple teams on Butler trade scenarios and have received offers but have been hesitant to negotiate further. Butler prefers a trade to the Phoenix Suns, Golden State Warriors, Dallas Mavericks or Houston Rockets. 

Butler's decision to request a trade was in part due to an implication from team officials that he hadn't played his hardest in the Heat's victory over the Pelicans on New Year's Day.

Via Shams Charania/ESPN

[ToCrooked]

If I were running the Heat I would bring back Butler to play it out and then let him self destruct. Getting Boo'd by the home crowd and his teammates not liking him would be a hit to his ego. Then suspend him again without pay (i doubt the union would allow this) once he acts up. If he really wants out he would have to play with some effort to raise his value.

[Kingsway_fan]

If I were running the Heat I would bring back Butler to play it out and then let him self destruct. Getting Boo'd by the home crowd and his teammates not liking him would be a hit to his ego. Then suspend him again without pay (i doubt the union would allow this) once he acts up. If he really wants out he would have to play with some effort to raise his value.

Miami is f k ed...ten cents on the dollar the most they will get.

[AmusingFiddle]

If I were running the Heat I would bring back Butler to play it out and then let him self destruct. Getting Boo'd by the home crowd and his teammates not liking him would be a hit to his ego. Then suspend him again without pay (i doubt the union would allow this) once he acts up. If he really wants out he would have to play with some effort to raise his value.

A Team can't just suspend a player without pay successfully. They will 9.9/10 lose out when grievance is filed by NBAPA. Also, the pay being withheld has to be placed in escrow. I am sure the tax exposure of withheld earnings will remain until matter is resolved. You seem to think its a automatic way to save money. Also, Miami is on the hook for $100M+ for this year and next. Butler holds the leverage more than the Heat.

Having said that, if he gets traded it will be closer 60-80% of his value not 10 cents on the dollar. Good Luck trying to trade him to get another star (to help them win this year), prospects and picks in return - which is what has been reported.

As an Executive, it would be foolish to hang on to such an "Ass"et. Cut your loses and move on. It will impact the whole team until settled.

[Luv those Knicks]

If I were running the Heat I would bring back Butler to play it out and then let him self destruct. Getting Boo'd by the home crowd and his teammates not liking him would be a hit to his ego. Then suspend him again without pay (i doubt the union would allow this) once he acts up. If he really wants out he would have to play with some effort to raise his value.

A Team can't just suspend a player without pay successfully. They will 9.9/10 lose out when grievance is filed by NBAPA. Also, the pay being withheld has to be placed in escrow. I am sure the tax exposure of withheld earnings will remain until matter is resolved. You seem to think its a automatic way to save money. Also, Miami is on the hook for $100M+ for this year and next. Butler holds the leverage more than the Heat.

Having said that, if he gets traded it will be closer 60-80% of his value not 10 cents on the dollar. Good Luck trying to trade him to get another star (to help them win this year), prospects and picks in return - which is what has been reported.

As an Executive, it would be foolish to hang on to such an "Ass"et. Cut your loses and move on. It will impact the whole team until settled.

I'd be surprised if they got that much. If they'd dangled him in the off-season there might have been more options, but with cap restrictions and matching trade requirements, and the relatively small number of teams looking to add a player with his salary. I'm thinking 50% of his value would be generous and honestly, 10%-30% isn't that far off, IMHO.

But then you have to measure what his value currently is. That he has a player opt-out next year and he'd probably want to leverage his new team into an extension and he's 35. That's a less than ideal situation for both Miami and Butler. He's still a good player, but it's not a great trade scenario for either Miami's return or Butler's dream scenario of joining a title contender and getting 2 or 3 years tacked on.

[EArl]

This seems like a lose-lose situation for both sides.

[AmusingFiddle]

If I were running the Heat I would bring back Butler to play it out and then let him self destruct. Getting Boo'd by the home crowd and his teammates not liking him would be a hit to his ego. Then suspend him again without pay (i doubt the union would allow this) once he acts up. If he really wants out he would have to play with some effort to raise his value.

A Team can't just suspend a player without pay successfully. They will 9.9/10 lose out when grievance is filed by NBAPA. Also, the pay being withheld has to be placed in escrow. I am sure the tax exposure of withheld earnings will remain until matter is resolved. You seem to think its a automatic way to save money. Also, Miami is on the hook for $100M+ for this year and next. Butler holds the leverage more than the Heat.

Having said that, if he gets traded it will be closer 60-80% of his value not 10 cents on the dollar. Good Luck trying to trade him to get another star (to help them win this year), prospects and picks in return - which is what has been reported.

As an Executive, it would be foolish to hang on to such an "Ass"et. Cut your loses and move on. It will impact the whole team until settled.

I'd be surprised if they got that much. If they'd dangled him in the off-season there might have been more options, but with cap restrictions and matching trade requirements, and the relatively small number of teams looking to add a player with his salary. I'm thinking 50% of his value would be generous and honestly, 10%-30% isn't that far off, IMHO.

But then you have to measure what his value currently is. That he has a player opt-out next year and he'd probably want to leverage his new team into an extension and he's 35. That's a less than ideal situation for both Miami and Butler. He's still a good player, but it's not a great trade scenario for either Miami's return or Butler's dream scenario of joining a title contender and getting 2 or 3 years tacked on.

Unfortunate situation for both the Team and Fans. It sucks the way the CBA is structured; it makes it more difficult to move players. I feel we should remove/modify cap hits on payroll and/or the way tax is calculated. The CBA went a tad extreme with the first & second apron restrictions and massive tax hits. It should be a flat % above the cap amount. None of the payroll matching restrictions are necessary. It makes it hard for teams to make trades in these type of situations.

[Luv those Knicks]

Unfortunate situation for both the Team and Fans. It sucks the way the CBA is structured; it makes it more difficult to move players. I feel we should remove/modify cap hits on payroll and/or the way tax is calculated. The CBA went a tad extreme with the first & second apron restrictions and massive tax hits. It should be a flat % above the cap amount. None of the payroll matching restrictions are necessary. It makes it hard for teams to make trades in these type of situations.

What to do with the CBA is always as a fun topic. I think the NBA has done very well with its cap limits and guaranteed minimum share of income and approach overall. The Aprons do hit hard, maybe too hard, but Jimmy Butler, a guy who's getting paid $48 million this year, $52 million next year if he opts into his contract, and he's trying to force a trade because he wants one more extension with a winner, rather than honor his current 48 million and then test free agency. That's not a strong position to cry unfair on.

Owners are going to insist that players honor their contracts, and I can't say I blame them. And as a Knicks fan, I'd love to see the Aprons loosened, but what is the counter argument the players are going to make. "Poor Jimmy, the rules are so restrictive that he couldn't force a trade to a team of his liking" I don't get it. And, I'm not pro-owner, but in this instance, I think the owners have a stronger case.

Now, maybe, the Miami heat could say "We need trade exceptions for when this happens" or something to that effect and teams could get trade exceptions ahead of an opt out to make trading a player in this situation easier. Maybe something like that could work for both sides. But anything that allows players to be selective on where they go via trade is a grey area, unless the player has a pre-arranged no trade clause.

I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud.

Maybe something more like baseball where the penalties for going over the aprons are more financial and less restrictive on trades could work for both sides.

What do you think?

Maybe Miami will work out a trade and this will resolve somewhat OK for both player and team.

[purpleswordfish]

The Heat hold a lot more leverage than people think. The Heat can make Butler just go out and play. If he doesn't - or, he goes out and plays half-assed - he will either have to opt in this summer or opt out and take less money in free agency.

The Heat and Riley could have handled this situation a little better, sure. However, Butler is coming out looking like an overpriced diva here. I can't imagine many teams being interested in his services at his asking price. Honestly, Butler should have just sucked it up and stayed with Miami long-term. He won't make more money elsewhere and that is clearly his main concern. I don't blame him in the slightest for that, by the way. In the words of the great Baron Davis "go make your money, dawg."

[Pickled Prunes]

If I were running the Heat I would bring back Butler to play it out and then let him self destruct. Getting Boo'd by the home crowd and his teammates not liking him would be a hit to his ego. Then suspend him again without pay (i doubt the union would allow this) once he acts up. If he really wants out he would have to play with some effort to raise his value.

A Team can't just suspend a player without pay successfully. They will 9.9/10 lose out when grievance is filed by NBAPA. Also, the pay being withheld has to be placed in escrow. I am sure the tax exposure of withheld earnings will remain until matter is resolved. You seem to think its a automatic way to save money. Also, Miami is on the hook for $100M+ for this year and next. Butler holds the leverage more than the Heat.

Having said that, if he gets traded it will be closer 60-80% of his value not 10 cents on the dollar. Good Luck trying to trade him to get another star (to help them win this year), prospects and picks in return - which is what has been reported.

As an Executive, it would be foolish to hang on to such an "Ass"et. Cut your loses and move on. It will impact the whole team until settled.

Players get suspended all the time. The 7 games was pretty significant and the players association may argue that it was too punitive, but Jimmy won't get all that money back. If they whittle it down to 3-4 games, MIA will take that.

[DoItALL9]

If I were running the Heat I would bring back Butler to play it out and then let him self destruct. Getting Boo'd by the home crowd and his teammates not liking him would be a hit to his ego. Then suspend him again without pay (i doubt the union would allow this) once he acts up. If he really wants out he would have to play with some effort to raise his value.

A Team can't just suspend a player without pay successfully. They will 9.9/10 lose out when grievance is filed by NBAPA. Also, the pay being withheld has to be placed in escrow. I am sure the tax exposure of withheld earnings will remain until matter is resolved. You seem to think its a automatic way to save money. Also, Miami is on the hook for $100M+ for this year and next. Butler holds the leverage more than the Heat.

Having said that, if he gets traded it will be closer 60-80% of his value not 10 cents on the dollar. Good Luck trying to trade him to get another star (to help them win this year), prospects and picks in return - which is what has been reported.

As an Executive, it would be foolish to hang on to such an "Ass"et. Cut your loses and move on. It will impact the whole team until settled.

I'd be surprised if they got that much. If they'd dangled him in the off-season there might have been more options, but with cap restrictions and matching trade requirements, and the relatively small number of teams looking to add a player with his salary. I'm thinking 50% of his value would be generous and honestly, 10%-30% isn't that far off, IMHO.

But then you have to measure what his value currently is. That he has a player opt-out next year and he'd probably want to leverage his new team into an extension and he's 35. That's a less than ideal situation for both Miami and Butler. He's still a good player, but it's not a great trade scenario for either Miami's return or Butler's dream scenario of joining a title contender and getting 2 or 3 years tacked on.

What percentage of his value is Brad Beal?

[Luv those Knicks]

What percentage of his value is Brad Beal?

Correct me if I'm wrong but Phoenix would give away Beal for practically nothing right now. An expiring contract would do. Miami would ask for 3 first round picks to get that deal done. Phoenix probably tries to talk it down.

But that's just my opinion.

[Luv those Knicks]

The Heat hold a lot more leverage than people think. The Heat can make Butler just go out and play. If he doesn't - or, he goes out and plays half-assed - he will either have to opt in this summer or opt out and take less money in free agency.

The Heat and Riley could have handled this situation a little better, sure. However, Butler is coming out looking like an overpriced diva here. I can't imagine many teams being interested in his services at his asking price. Honestly, Butler should have just sucked it up and stayed with Miami long-term. He won't make more money elsewhere and that is clearly his main concern. I don't blame him in the slightest for that, by the way. In the words of the great Baron Davis "go make your money, dawg."

I think you're right, but that doesn't mean that other teams are in a position to make them a good offer. Miami can wait a few weeks, but if they don't trade him at the deadline, then it's tricky, maybe a sign and trade in the off-season if Butler can't get a contract he likes.

[rajajackal]

i like the idea of pat riley forcing jimmy butler to play out his contract and go get a deal somewhere else on his own merit. miami has no issue signing free agents given the cap space. generally i prefer players to be empowered in these scenarios, but once you've been a malcontent in more than one place you're due for a little equilibrium from life

[puja21]

A Team can't just suspend a player without pay successfully. They will 9.9/10 lose out when grievance is filed by NBAPA. Also, the pay being withheld has to be placed in escrow. I am sure the tax exposure of withheld earnings will remain until matter is resolved. You seem to think its a automatic way to save money.

99/100 seems is too optimistic or there wouldn't even be an arbitration, nor would teams (or the league) waste the time/money going through the meaningless exercise of documenting the suspension and interrupting the payments. Team suspensions are a different animal, but for league mandated we *know* the outcome is worse for the players (than 99/100) because we see the reduced games numbers publicly (and the losses go 50% to charity)

For team suspensions/fines, we typically have no way of knowing the outcome
e.g.
Sixers withheld Ben Simmons salary for the 21/22 season and even "how much" of the 20M Philly withheld is unknown, because different journalists reported conflicting statements about the start/stop of the payment interruptions.

Simmons filed a grievance, but both sides agreed to a confidential settlement before even reaching arbitration

The Sixers didn't care about negative publicity / agents pushback / free agency -- as they were VERY public in their withholding of salary... but they could still have an incentive to want confidentiality -- if he did get all or most back, confidentiality saves them most of the public egg on face (but I'm sure other players and agents have an idea of how much Simmons got or even a number).

For Simmons, his incentive obvious -- if he got a low ball outcome, then he saves pride/humiliation of having publicly failed in his hold out. But even if he got most of it back, then the publicity is going to be overwhelmingly negative from Sixers fans -- with the "stealing from the franchise" angle.

We're all just speculating for the most part.

[puja21]

What percentage of his value is Brad Beal?

Correct me if I'm wrong but Phoenix would give away Beal for practically nothing right now. An expiring contract would do. Miami would ask for 3 first round picks to get that deal done. Phoenix probably tries to talk it down.

But that's just my opinion.

Miami "sources" have already leaked that they don't want Beal and a 3rd team would need to be involved

[puja21]

i like the idea of pat riley forcing jimmy butler to play out his contract and go get a deal somewhere else on his own merit. miami has no issue signing free agents given the cap space. generally i prefer players to be empowered in these scenarios, but once you've been a malcontent in more than one place you're due for a little equilibrium from life

I bet a lot of (if not most) fans would love to see that play out for once

Players have historically won every time (e.g. Harden 3x, Simmons, AD, Carmelo gutting trade to Knicks rather than UFA)

If anyone was willing to take a stand it might be Riley/Arison... but are even they willing to hurt the team on principle when it maybe (probably even) doesn't change anything for the balance of power?

[Pickled Prunes]

A Team can't just suspend a player without pay successfully. They will 9.9/10 lose out when grievance is filed by NBAPA. Also, the pay being withheld has to be placed in escrow. I am sure the tax exposure of withheld earnings will remain until matter is resolved. You seem to think its a automatic way to save money. Also, Miami is on the hook for $100M+ for this year and next. Butler holds the leverage more than the Heat.

Having said that, if he gets traded it will be closer 60-80% of his value not 10 cents on the dollar. Good Luck trying to trade him to get another star (to help them win this year), prospects and picks in return - which is what has been reported.

As an Executive, it would be foolish to hang on to such an "Ass"et. Cut your loses and move on. It will impact the whole team until settled.

I'd be surprised if they got that much. If they'd dangled him in the off-season there might have been more options, but with cap restrictions and matching trade requirements, and the relatively small number of teams looking to add a player with his salary. I'm thinking 50% of his value would be generous and honestly, 10%-30% isn't that far off, IMHO.

But then you have to measure what his value currently is. That he has a player opt-out next year and he'd probably want to leverage his new team into an extension and he's 35. That's a less than ideal situation for both Miami and Butler. He's still a good player, but it's not a great trade scenario for either Miami's return or Butler's dream scenario of joining a title contender and getting 2 or 3 years tacked on.

What percentage of his value is Brad Beal?

I think it's closer than you think. They are both overpaid and injury prone. Beal is under contract for a season longer but is also 4 years younger. He'll be younger at the end of his deal than Jimmy is today... and Jimmy is expecting an extension to follow the trade. Beal is also more than what he is showing in PHX behind two other ball-dominant players. I wouldn't want either on those deals, but I'd probably take Beal considering the circumstances.