Buck Butler

[slos]

At this point I don't believe there is a better package on the table for Miami than Middleton/Portis/Connaughton alone even without draft compensation. With Jimmy's current market Bucks can save at least one of Johnson or 2031 FRP. I wouldn't be shocked if they save both.

[SA37]

Sure, if middleton was a bumb...This is very simple, its Middleton's health and quickness since the two ankle injuries.

Stealing this from my board

Teams that have won a championship with Butler being a key piece - 0

Teams where Butler has caused drama and headaches - 4

Is Jimmy ( the player) an upgrade over MIddleton, Yes

Alot comes with Jimmy and i dont think he will like being the 3rd option

Middleton has been a middling, injury-riddled player for the past two seasons. There is no reason to think that, at 33 and coming off surgery on both ankles, he will ever get anywhere near his old form.

And, sure, Butler comes with his own set of risks, but his issues on teams have generally been over contracts (Philly and Miami). If the Buck trade for him, presumably they will do so with the intent of paying Butler ~$100M over 2 seasons.

[SkyHook]

And if Middleton was still that guy, they wouldn't be considering this. But nobody, including the Bucks FO thinks Middleton is still that guy.

Upgrades generally cost something.

Sure, if middleton was a bumb...This is very simple, its Middleton's health and quickness since the two ankle injuries.

Stealing this from my board

Teams that have won a championship with Butler being a key piece - 0

Teams where Butler has caused drama and headaches - 4

Is Jimmy ( the player) an upgrade over MIddleton, Yes

Alot comes with Jimmy and i dont think he will like being the 3rd option

*Sigh

The drama is the only reason you're getting him, cheaply. A player of his caliber should be going for 3-5 first round picks. As to the championship argument, had Jimmy played alongside Giannis, do you really think he'd be ringless?

While this is true, it's absolutely a legitimate factor in his valuation. He's not going for 3-5 FRPs because absolutely no team sees him being worth anywhere near that. It's certainly a sad reality for the Heat, but reality nonetheless.

[BBallFreak]

I think Pat takes more than that to dump. The Heat getting that package should be happy to help pay it too. Two good players whose contracts fit their desires and an unprotected 1st? They can kick in some value.

We'll pitch in AJ Green

But Op is completely fine.

I don't think most people understand here - even if Miami fans are getting the exact trade we're asking for, we're still holding our noses to the deal. Jimmy has been our franchise player for years. We've watched the likes of Rudy Gobert and Mikal Bridges go for boatloads of value that they're not worth, and we're being asked to smile and take a team's leftovers and be grateful for it. We're not going to be grateful for it. This trade is fine but it's still an insult (no offense to the op who did a great job)

Not only that, but whoever trades for Butler is tacitly saying he's worth 1) worth trading for 2) worth the extension he's looking for and 3) going to push the team over the edge to win the title.

The list of teams that would be willing to acquire Butler and pay him ~$50 a season through 38 is short, but we're still talking about the Bucks, the Nuggets, the Suns, and maybe the Rockets.

And the reality is the Bucks will likely have to go through 1 or 2 teams with talented wings/forwards (NY, Boston, Orlando), and at this point Butler is in a much better position to make the Bucks better than Middleton.

The Bucks potentially get a guy who, at his best, is an all-NBA player for a 33yr old guy who is coming off of two injury-plagued, really subpar seasons and surgery on BOTH ankles + Portis and a #1 and people think the Heat are getting too much? Really?

Not just that - we should be happy to pitch in more value to make the deal work.

Happy!

That was the word used!

Look, Heat fans understand the reality of the situation, but please don't tell us we should be happy about it! This sucks for us and, unlike Portland, no one's offering us a Jrue Holiday because, unlike Dame, Jimmy blew up his trade value by acting like an ass.

[MasterIchiro]

Heat get:
Khris Middleton
Bobby Portis
AJ Johnson
2031 Unprotected Bucks 1st

Bucks get:
Jimmy Butler

Wizards get:
Pat Connaughton
Lower of 2030 Blazers/Bucks 2nd
2031 Bucks 2nd

Heat add a first and resolve the Butler situation without taking on any salary beyond 2026

Bucks add a great piece to create a trio of Giannis/Lillard/Butler to carry them down the stretch and in the playoffs

Wizards take on some money using a TPE to get two future second rounders without going above the tax or taking on long-term salary

How can the Bucks do this legally? They are aggregating 3 salaries for one. Is it because they skirt the 2nd apron with the Connaughton dump? And Fanspo doesn't account for that? Would the Connaughton dump need to be submitted as a separate trade and first domino?

[BBallFreak]

Sure, if middleton was a bumb...This is very simple, its Middleton's health and quickness since the two ankle injuries.

Stealing this from my board

Teams that have won a championship with Butler being a key piece - 0

Teams where Butler has caused drama and headaches - 4

Is Jimmy ( the player) an upgrade over MIddleton, Yes

Alot comes with Jimmy and i dont think he will like being the 3rd option

*Sigh

The drama is the only reason you're getting him, cheaply. A player of his caliber should be going for 3-5 first round picks. As to the championship argument, had Jimmy played alongside Giannis, do you really think he'd be ringless?

While this is true, it's absolutely a legitimate factor in his valuation. He's not going for 3-5 FRPs because absolutely no team sees him being worth anywhere near that. It's certainly a sad reality for the Heat, but reality nonetheless.

Yes, we're very much aware. As I stated in my initial response - we know what he's worth now, but we also know what he should be worth. No one should expect us to be happy about the crap sandwich we're about to eat.

[BBallFreak]

Heat get:
Khris Middleton
Bobby Portis
AJ Johnson
2031 Unprotected Bucks 1st

Bucks get:
Jimmy Butler

Wizards get:
Pat Connaughton
Lower of 2030 Blazers/Bucks 2nd
2031 Bucks 2nd

Heat add a first and resolve the Butler situation without taking on any salary beyond 2026

Bucks add a great piece to create a trio of Giannis/Lillard/Butler to carry them down the stretch and in the playoffs

Wizards take on some money using a TPE to get two future second rounders without going above the tax or taking on long-term salary

How can the Bucks do this legally? They are aggregating 3 salaries for one. Is it because they skirt the 2nd apron with the Connaughton dump? And Fanspo doesn't account for that? Would the Connaughton dump need to be submitted as a separate trade and first domino?

I would think it probably would need to be separate, but that's just a matter of putting in that paperwork and then an hour later, putting in the Miami portion.

[LightTheBeam]

Jimmy is good, but Miami is really stuck here. I think if they can get good players with 1.5 years on the deal left, thats the deal.

What is the alternative? keep him, he opts in, they cut him? 50 million dollars for nothing?
Trade him to Phx for Beal? Yuck.

Unless Jimmy opens up his team list, I don't think Milwaukee needs to provide a good 1st that will be coming due when Giannis is 36 and Lillard/Butler are out of the league.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

Think Washington gets AJ Johnson, not Miami..

But it really is that simple yeah.

I think Milwaukee gets to put top 4 protection on the 2031 first if they draw it out long enough..

Not sure you risk trading Butler for some seconds?

I think by 2031 there will be no hindsight talk with a trade with such limited suitors. Off topic a bit, but who remembers what Tyrus Thomas was traded for? How many know why Chicago owns that Portland first?.. But good for Miami if Milwaukee gives in. I just think it’s avoidable.

Would Brooklyn trade the NYK 2025 first for Milwaukee’s 2031 top 4 protected? And then Miami gets a first and Milwaukee gets the protection.

Heat has to have more options than the bucks imo? Bucks don't get this deal done Giannis upset. Not too many alternatives to get a Butler quality player with their assets.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

And dumping money. Compare Mids 11 game sample size to Butler last two playoff runs.

And if Middleton was still that guy, they wouldn't be considering this. But nobody, including the Bucks FO thinks Middleton is still that guy.

Upgrades generally cost something.

Sure, if middleton was a bumb...This is very simple, its Middleton's health and quickness since the two ankle injuries.

Stealing this from my board

Teams that have won a championship with Butler being a key piece - 0

Teams where Butler has caused drama and headaches - 4

Is Jimmy ( the player) an upgrade over MIddleton, Yes

Alot comes with Jimmy and i dont think he will like being the 3rd option

Is Middleton health and quickness trending up?

[MasterIchiro]

Heat get:
Khris Middleton
Bobby Portis
AJ Johnson
2031 Unprotected Bucks 1st

Bucks get:
Jimmy Butler

Wizards get:
Pat Connaughton
Lower of 2030 Blazers/Bucks 2nd
2031 Bucks 2nd

Heat add a first and resolve the Butler situation without taking on any salary beyond 2026

Bucks add a great piece to create a trio of Giannis/Lillard/Butler to carry them down the stretch and in the playoffs

Wizards take on some money using a TPE to get two future second rounders without going above the tax or taking on long-term salary

How can the Bucks do this legally? They are aggregating 3 salaries for one. Is it because they skirt the 2nd apron with the Connaughton dump? And Fanspo doesn't account for that? Would the Connaughton dump need to be submitted as a separate trade and first domino?

I would think it probably would need to be separate, but that's just a matter of putting in that paperwork and then an hour later, putting in the Miami portion.

I like the return of Middleton + Portis. They have rings. I wonder if the trade still works with Andre Jackson, who seems Heat culture. I'm a UConn fan and wanted Charlotte to take him but we traded up for some dude James Nnaji then dumped Nnaji because he's never going to play in the NBA. I just didn't understand it. Jackson plays the game right. He plays with high motor and makes smart decisions on both sides of the ball. He's also a secondary playmaker. UConn ran offense through him at times.

But I believe the Heat couldn't be too demanding given the way Butler has diminished his own trade value and market.

The Beal stuff is not happening. I think the Suns are in a really bad place right now.

[jayjaysee]

Not sure you risk trading Butler for some seconds?

I think by 2031 there will be no hindsight talk with a trade with such limited suitors. Off topic a bit, but who remembers what Tyrus Thomas was traded for? How many know why Chicago owns that Portland first?.. But good for Miami if Milwaukee gives in. I just think it’s avoidable.

Would Brooklyn trade the NYK 2025 first for Milwaukee’s 2031 top 4 protected? And then Miami gets a first and Milwaukee gets the protection.

Heat has to have more options than the bucks imo? Bucks don't get this deal done Giannis upset. Not too many alternatives to get a Butler quality player with their assets.

Ingram isn’t really Butler quality. But he’s a 8 years younger.. Is Butler better next year? Probably. The year after? Probably not.. And now in two years when you’re hoping Giannis extends, at least you have someone on the roster below 37?

But like I said. Brooklyn should easily trade their latest first (Houston or NYK) for Milwaukee’s 2031 top 4 protected first. And then Pat can say he got a first.

I just think once you do that, Miami still takes Milwaukee’s first. So skip the dance sort of deal.

[DaVoiceMaster]

Is Milwaukee willing to give up Portis? What about Middleton, Connaught, 2031 pick, and thensome combination of young guys to make up the additional $7M?

[mlloyd10]

I think Pat takes more than that to dump. The Heat getting that package should be happy to help pay it too. Two good players whose contracts fit their desires and an unprotected 1st? They can kick in some value.

We'll pitch in AJ Green

But Op is completely fine.

I don't think most people understand here - even if Miami fans are getting the exact trade we're asking for, we're still holding our noses to the deal. Jimmy has been our franchise player for years. We've watched the likes of Rudy Gobert and Mikal Bridges go for boatloads of value that they're not worth, and we're being asked to smile and take a team's leftovers and be grateful for it. We're not going to be grateful for it. This trade is fine but it's still an insult (no offense to the op who did a great job)

Not only that, but whoever trades for Butler is tacitly saying he's 1) worth trading for 2) worth the extension he's looking for and 3) going to push the team over the edge to win the title.

The list of teams that would be willing to acquire Butler and pay him ~$50 a season through 38 is short, but we're still talking about the Bucks, the Nuggets, the Suns, and maybe the Rockets.

And the reality is the Bucks will likely have to go through 1 or 2 teams with talented wings/forwards (NY, Boston, Orlando), and at this point Butler is in a much better position to make the Bucks better than Middleton.

The Bucks potentially get a guy who, at his best, is an all-NBA player for a 33yr old guy who is coming off of two injury-plagued, really subpar seasons and surgery on BOTH ankles + Portis and a #1 and people think the Heat are getting too much? Really?

Absolutely.

Man, you guys are all selling Middleton short...Holy cow.

[mlloyd10]

Sure, if middleton was a bumb...This is very simple, its Middleton's health and quickness since the two ankle injuries.

Stealing this from my board

Teams that have won a championship with Butler being a key piece - 0

Teams where Butler has caused drama and headaches - 4

Is Jimmy ( the player) an upgrade over MIddleton, Yes

Alot comes with Jimmy and i dont think he will like being the 3rd option

*Sigh

The drama is the only reason you're getting him, cheaply. A player of his caliber should be going for 3-5 first round picks. As to the championship argument, had Jimmy played alongside Giannis, do you really think he'd be ringless?

While this is true, it's absolutely a legitimate factor in his valuation. He's not going for 3-5 FRPs because absolutely no team sees him being worth anywhere near that. It's certainly a sad reality for the Heat, but reality nonetheless.

couldn't have said it better myself

[Texas Chuck]

[
Man, you guys are all selling Middleton short...Holy cow.

Or maybe you remember all the great stuff he has done for the Bucks and are missing the obvious decline that the organization obviously sees.

I love Middleton. I have championed him on this board all the way back to his Pistons days when I used to post deals bringing him to Dallas because I could see there was more to be unleashed.

But he's in decline. Sucks, but it happens to everyone eventually. Like usual our analysis isn't anti-your player or your team because its not as glowing as yours. But naturally that's the only conclusion some of you ever reach....

[mlloyd10]

[
Man, you guys are all selling Middleton short...Holy cow.

Or maybe you remember all the great stuff he has done for the Bucks and are missing the obvious decline that the organization obviously sees.

I love Middleton. I have championed him on this board all the way back to his Pistons days when I used to post deals bringing him to Dallas because I could see there was more to be unleashed.

But he's in decline. Sucks, but it happens to everyone eventually. Like usual our analysis isn't anti-your player or your team because its not as glowing as yours. But naturally that's the only conclusion some of you ever reach....

No one is denying that he is declining, but the guy just put up 25/8/5 in the playoffs being force to be the #1 option.

If is was as simple as Middleton and the 2031 1st, sure....Its the secondary pieces

Your Analysis is your opinion

[jayjaysee]

Is Milwaukee willing to give up Portis? What about Middleton, Connaught, 2031 pick, and thensome combination of young guys to make up the additional $7M?

I had tried playing with that a while ago to see if it could be legal in general.

Like Milwaukee sending 7 players and signing 5 rest of season contracts with Butler. Seems close to impossible and probably hurts worse than just including Portis..

[JTT]

I think Pat takes more than that to dump. The Heat getting that package should be happy to help pay it too. Two good players whose contracts fit their desires and an unprotected 1st? They can kick in some value.

We'll pitch in AJ Green

But Op is completely fine.

I don't think most people understand here - even if Miami fans are getting the exact trade we're asking for, we're still holding our noses to the deal. Jimmy has been our franchise player for years. We've watched the likes of Rudy Gobert and Mikal Bridges go for boatloads of value that they're not worth, and we're being asked to smile and take a team's leftovers and be grateful for it. We're not going to be grateful for it. This trade is fine but it's still an insult (no offense to the op who did a great job)

As someone who cheers for a team that wrapped up Chris Bosh in a bow and then drove him to the airport for you, just for the privilege of getting #@#@!, I feel your pain but also take just a bit of sadistic joy in it.

I think most understand more than you think. It's just that your franchise has typically been the one (through skill and good management) to do the screwing.

[mlloyd10]

I guess, do you think that Jimmy Butler has more or less trade value that Dame had when he was traded?