The Tim Connelly Thread (prev./still Fire Him)

[BlacJacMac]

Of course we cannot know. I do think Kyle might have been worth a late first to a different playoff team and that gets us Tyus, but I cannot be sure of that either. I think either way we had a clear shot at him before he signed with the Suns.

The only "clear shot" at Tyus would've been if we didn't extend Conley.

And even then we would've been competing with the Suns - who made him their priority. You can't assume he'd pick us over them.

[winforlose]

Of course we cannot know. I do think Kyle might have been worth a late first to a different playoff team and that gets us Tyus, but I cannot be sure of that either. I think either way we had a clear shot at him before he signed with the Suns.

The only "clear shot" at Tyus would've been if we didn't extend Conley.

And even then we would've been competing with the Suns - who made him their priority. You can't assume he'd pick us over them.

Um, why not? All else being equal we have a 37 year old PG who is under contract one more year. The Suns had just signed Monte Morris, and of course he wants playing time. You really think Tyus wouldn’t have come here if we promised to move Mike to PG2 and Dilly to PG3. Dilly gets to develop in the G (where he should be now,) and Mike doesn’t have to over extend himself. Tyus had a great opportunity here. We just preferred Dozier because TC was close with him. That is why we paid full price cutting KBD instead of a huge discount cutting Dozier.

[BlacJacMac]

Of course we cannot know. I do think Kyle might have been worth a late first to a different playoff team and that gets us Tyus, but I cannot be sure of that either. I think either way we had a clear shot at him before he signed with the Suns.

The only "clear shot" at Tyus would've been if we didn't extend Conley.

And even then we would've been competing with the Suns - who made him their priority. You can't assume he'd pick us over them.

Um, why not? All else being equal we have a 37 year old PG who is under contract one more year. The Suns had just signed Monte Morris, and of course he wants playing time. You really think Tyus wouldn’t have come here if we promised to move Mike to PG2 and Dilly to PG3. Dilly gets to develop in the G (where he should be now,) and Mike doesn’t have to over extend himself. Tyus had a great opportunity here. We just preferred Dozier because TC was close with him. That is why we paid full price cutting KBD instead of a huge discount cutting Dozier.

Conley was a vital part of last year's team and was entrenched as the starter. Morris is a very nice career back-up.

Tyus has a great opportunity there as well.

Phoenix also has very wealthy owners that are willing to spend. Our ownership is totally up in the air. And historically Phoenix has been seen as a much more desirable city for NBA players than Minneapolis.

Why are you so sure he'd have picked us over them.

[winforlose]

The only "clear shot" at Tyus would've been if we didn't extend Conley.

And even then we would've been competing with the Suns - who made him their priority. You can't assume he'd pick us over them.

Um, why not? All else being equal we have a 37 year old PG who is under contract one more year. The Suns had just signed Monte Morris, and of course he wants playing time. You really think Tyus wouldn’t have come here if we promised to move Mike to PG2 and Dilly to PG3. Dilly gets to develop in the G (where he should be now,) and Mike doesn’t have to over extend himself. Tyus had a great opportunity here. We just preferred Dozier because TC was close with him. That is why we paid full price cutting KBD instead of a huge discount cutting Dozier.

Conley was a vital part of last year's team and was entrenched as the starter. Morris is a very nice career back-up.

Tyus has a great opportunity there as well.

Phoenix also has very wealthy owners that are willing to spend. Our ownership is totally up in the air. And historically Phoenix has been seen as a much more desirable city for NBA players than Minneapolis.

Why are you so sure he'd have picked us over them.

Aside from the fact that Tyus is from Minnesota. Aside from the fact that there is a clear opening here that might not exist in PHX with Beal on his no trade clause deal and the congestion that it creates when Durant and Book are guaranteed starting spots, and Nurk was likely to stay in the lineup. Aside from the fact that the Suns went out in round 1 and we went out in round 3 of a 4 round playoff. Tyus had the chance to PG with Ant. Tyus on a prove it playing with Ant and Rudy would give him the full range of opportunities. Everything Mike did last year Tyus could this year. Finally, Mike was always going to play less minutes as he got older. You really think telling Mike that he will split PG duties and Tyus will open and close games would destroy team chemistry? I think Mike feels more pressure to play when isn’t up to it given that we have no true PG2 (Dilly is a PG like it or not.)

[BlacJacMac]

You do realize that Tyus has started every game for Phoenix, just like they promised. Right? That was unlikely to happen here after we extended Mike.

The idea that we "preferred" Dozier over Tyus is not based in any kind of reality.

Tyus is doing exactly what he hoped he would. Proving that he's a starting PG in this league. He's a 1 year rental for Phoenix, just like he would've been for us.

As far as being from Minnesota, the idea that athletes want to play for their home state is a fan creation.

[winforlose]

You do realize that Tyus has started every game for Phoenix, just like they promised. Right? That was unlikely to happen here after we extended Mike.

The idea that we "preferred" Dozier over Tyus is not based in any kind of reality.

Tyus is doing exactly what he hoped he would. Proving that he's a starting PG in this league. He's a 1 year rental for Phoenix, just like he would've been for us.

As far as being from Minnesota, the idea that athletes want to play for their home state is a fan creation.

If we gave Tyus the start over Mike (which I said in my last post as well,) then why is the PHX starting PG better than the Wolves starting PG? Why couldn’t Mike be the bench player at 37 and Tyus be the PGOF. Your best argument which you didn’t make so I will is that Dilly represents too much investment at the position to make Tyus the PGOF over Dilly long term. But, Tyus could start here for 2 or 3 years than get traded elsewhere to start for someone else when Dilly is ready. Or he could simply leave for better money if a team with space wanted to sign him. Your argument hinges on PHX with Beal/Book/Durant/Nurk being better than playing with Ant/Jaden/KAT and Rudy (the trade hadn’t happened yet.) Explain why that is true?

[BlacJacMac]

You do realize that Tyus has started every game for Phoenix, just like they promised. Right? That was unlikely to happen here after we extended Mike.

The idea that we "preferred" Dozier over Tyus is not based in any kind of reality.

Tyus is doing exactly what he hoped he would. Proving that he's a starting PG in this league. He's a 1 year rental for Phoenix, just like he would've been for us.

As far as being from Minnesota, the idea that athletes want to play for their home state is a fan creation.

If we gave Tyus the start over Mike (which I said in my last post as well,) then why is the PHX starting PG better than the Wolves starting PG? Why couldn’t Mike be the bench player at 37 and Tyus be the PGOF. Your best argument which you didn’t make so I will is that Dilly represents too much investment at the position to make Tyus the PGOF over Dilly long term. But, Tyus could start here for 2 or 3 years than get traded elsewhere to start for someone else when Dilly is ready. Or he could simply leave for better money if a team with space wanted to sign him. Your argument hinges on PHX with Beal/Book/Durant/Nurk being better than playing with Ant/Jaden/KAT and Rudy (the trade hadn’t happened yet.) Explain why that is true?

Because we probably committed to Mike that he'd be starting. 2/20M with a "no-trade" clause is generally not back-up money on a 2nd apron team. Not backing up some player on a 1-year vet minimum deal. Phoenix's only other PG was a guy playing for the minimum coming off a bad year.

Tyus went to a playoff team that was desperate for a starting PG - which is what he needed to rebuild his value for his next contract.

And he's playing 32 MPG. To get that here, means Mike is getting 10M/year to play 16 - and not start or close games. You think he is happy with that?

But, Tyus could start here for 2 or 3 years than get traded elsewhere to start for someone else when Dilly is ready.

How do we have Tyus for the 2nd and 3rd years if he's coming off a 1-year vet minimum deal with us?

[winforlose]

You do realize that Tyus has started every game for Phoenix, just like they promised. Right? That was unlikely to happen here after we extended Mike.

The idea that we "preferred" Dozier over Tyus is not based in any kind of reality.

Tyus is doing exactly what he hoped he would. Proving that he's a starting PG in this league. He's a 1 year rental for Phoenix, just like he would've been for us.

As far as being from Minnesota, the idea that athletes want to play for their home state is a fan creation.

If we gave Tyus the start over Mike (which I said in my last post as well,) then why is the PHX starting PG better than the Wolves starting PG? Why couldn’t Mike be the bench player at 37 and Tyus be the PGOF. Your best argument which you didn’t make so I will is that Dilly represents too much investment at the position to make Tyus the PGOF over Dilly long term. But, Tyus could start here for 2 or 3 years than get traded elsewhere to start for someone else when Dilly is ready. Or he could simply leave for better money if a team with space wanted to sign him. Your argument hinges on PHX with Beal/Book/Durant/Nurk being better than playing with Ant/Jaden/KAT and Rudy (the trade hadn’t happened yet.) Explain why that is true?

Because we probably committed to Mike that he'd be starting. 2/20M with a "no-trade" clause is generally not back-up money on a 2nd apron team. Not backing up some player on a 1-year vet minimum deal. Phoenix's only other PG was a guy playing for the minimum coming off a bad year.

Tyus went to a playoff team that was desperate for a starting PG - which is what he needed to rebuild his value for his next contract.

And he's playing 32 MPG. To get that here, means Mike is getting 10M/year to play 16 - and not start or close games. You think he is happy with that?

But, Tyus could start here for 2 or 3 years than get traded elsewhere to start for someone else when Dilly is ready.

How do we have Tyus for the 2nd and 3rd years if he's coming off a 1-year vet minimum deal with us?

Gonna use numbers to address your multiple points.

1. Mike getting a no trade promise I get. Mike being promised starter minutes is questionable at best. I (along with multiple board members) was considered about an age wall issue with Mike. We are literally seeing that play out this season. End of the day, investing minutes into a younger version of Mike is better than investing them in the current version of Mike. Did you honestly believe that Mike was gonna have a deep playoff run and not be worse for wear the next year at 37?

2. Tyus signs the minimum this year and we get partial bird rights (technically called non bird rights.) If he wants to leave the next year then he leaves and gets what he can. If he wants to stay with a 120% raise then the following year with his early bird rights we can pay him. Or he can sign one additional one year deal and be in line for even more money. Trading for him would have given us the bird rights to keep him long term, but without them who knows what happens. Maybe Tyus gets a 20 million dollar contract next year with a team willing to start him. Then again, maybe those teams want someone with more upside and his earnings remain limited. Who knows. We would be in the best possible position to find out had we signed him.

[BlacJacMac]

If we gave Tyus the start over Mike (which I said in my last post as well,) then why is the PHX starting PG better than the Wolves starting PG? Why couldn’t Mike be the bench player at 37 and Tyus be the PGOF. Your best argument which you didn’t make so I will is that Dilly represents too much investment at the position to make Tyus the PGOF over Dilly long term. But, Tyus could start here for 2 or 3 years than get traded elsewhere to start for someone else when Dilly is ready. Or he could simply leave for better money if a team with space wanted to sign him. Your argument hinges on PHX with Beal/Book/Durant/Nurk being better than playing with Ant/Jaden/KAT and Rudy (the trade hadn’t happened yet.) Explain why that is true?

Because we probably committed to Mike that he'd be starting. 2/20M with a "no-trade" clause is generally not back-up money on a 2nd apron team. Not backing up some player on a 1-year vet minimum deal. Phoenix's only other PG was a guy playing for the minimum coming off a bad year.

Tyus went to a playoff team that was desperate for a starting PG - which is what he needed to rebuild his value for his next contract.

And he's playing 32 MPG. To get that here, means Mike is getting 10M/year to play 16 - and not start or close games. You think he is happy with that?

But, Tyus could start here for 2 or 3 years than get traded elsewhere to start for someone else when Dilly is ready.

How do we have Tyus for the 2nd and 3rd years if he's coming off a 1-year vet minimum deal with us?

Gonna use numbers to address your multiple points.

1. Mike getting a no trade promise I get. Mike being promised starter minutes is questionable at best. I (along with multiple board members) was considered about an age wall issue with Mike. We are literally seeing that play out this season. End of the day, investing minutes into a younger version of Mike is better than investing them in the current version of Mike. Did you honestly believe that Mike was gonna have a deep playoff run and not be worse for wear the next year at 37?

2. Tyus signs the minimum this year and we get partial bird rights (technically called non bird rights.) If he wants to leave the next year then he leaves and gets what he can. If he wants to stay with a 120% raise then the following year with his early bird rights we can pay him. Or he can sign one additional one year deal and be in line for even more money. Trading for him would have given us the bird rights to keep him long term, but without them who knows what happens. Maybe Tyus gets a 20 million dollar contract next year with a team willing to start him. Then again, maybe those teams want someone with more upside and his earnings remain limited. Who knows. We would be in the best possible position to find out had we signed him.

1. Its not what you or I think. Its what Tyus thinks.

He had a guaranteed start and 32MPG in Phoenix. That was their pitch to him. Again, do you think we signed Mike for 10M/year to play 16 MPG? Mike was huge for us last year and we were a mess when he was out. I don't think anyone expected this much decline from him. At least not enough to gamble on him basically being your 9th man. Again, Phoenix offered him the clearcut PG#1 spot on a team that showed last year they really needed a PG to put it all together.

2. That's HORRIBLE for Tyus. So he'd get a raise from 3M to 3.6M and then still only have Early Bird Rights after that. Dude is betting on himself, that's about the worst possible case scenario. Will he get 20M? Unlikely. But a full MLE is not out of the picture if he just maintains this level of play. I don't expect him back in Phoenix next year - just like I wouldn't expect him to stay with us.

[winforlose]

Because we probably committed to Mike that he'd be starting. 2/20M with a "no-trade" clause is generally not back-up money on a 2nd apron team. Not backing up some player on a 1-year vet minimum deal. Phoenix's only other PG was a guy playing for the minimum coming off a bad year.

Tyus went to a playoff team that was desperate for a starting PG - which is what he needed to rebuild his value for his next contract.

And he's playing 32 MPG. To get that here, means Mike is getting 10M/year to play 16 - and not start or close games. You think he is happy with that?



How do we have Tyus for the 2nd and 3rd years if he's coming off a 1-year vet minimum deal with us?

Gonna use numbers to address your multiple points.

1. Mike getting a no trade promise I get. Mike being promised starter minutes is questionable at best. I (along with multiple board members) was considered about an age wall issue with Mike. We are literally seeing that play out this season. End of the day, investing minutes into a younger version of Mike is better than investing them in the current version of Mike. Did you honestly believe that Mike was gonna have a deep playoff run and not be worse for wear the next year at 37?

2. Tyus signs the minimum this year and we get partial bird rights (technically called non bird rights.) If he wants to leave the next year then he leaves and gets what he can. If he wants to stay with a 120% raise then the following year with his early bird rights we can pay him. Or he can sign one additional one year deal and be in line for even more money. Trading for him would have given us the bird rights to keep him long term, but without them who knows what happens. Maybe Tyus gets a 20 million dollar contract next year with a team willing to start him. Then again, maybe those teams want someone with more upside and his earnings remain limited. Who knows. We would be in the best possible position to find out had we signed him.

1. Its not what you or I think. Its what Tyus thinks.

He had a guaranteed start and 32MPG in Phoenix. That was their pitch to him. Again, do you think we signed Mike for 10M/year to play 16 MPG? Mike was huge for us last year and we were a mess when he was out. I don't think anyone expected this much decline from him. At least not enough to gamble on him basically being your 9th man. Again, Phoenix offered him the clearcut PG#1 spot on a team that showed last year they really needed a PG to put it all together.

2. That's HORRIBLE for Tyus. So he'd get a raise from 3M to 3.6M and then still only have Early Bird Rights after that. Dude is betting on himself, that's about the worst possible case scenario. Will he get 20M? Unlikely. But a full MLE is not out of the picture if he just maintains this level of play. I don't expect him back in Phoenix next year - just like I wouldn't expect him to stay with us.

1. Mike getting 20 and Tyus getting 28 at PG isn’t that bad. Plus we have run multiple 2 or 3 PG lineups over the years. I wouldn’t assume Tyus wouldn’t get enough minutes. As for Mike’s decline, it isn’t as uncommon as you think. Usually it starts with nagging injuries like Mike’s wrist. It is worsened by the fact that Mike played a ton last year. He doesn’t recover the way younger players do. Add to that the fact that we over rely on him now. There is a reason people wanted to limit him to 20-25 minutes a game this season. If we had the PG to do it, Mike would be more productive. You act like this is a huge shock, I barely find it surprising and my only surprise is how often Mike is sent to the corner instead of running the offense.

2. I agree. That said, I am not sure Tyus will get a starting role next year. I don’t know who will have the money, the opening, and the willingness to commit to him. Even if we had him for one year it would have been worth it. If he couldn’t find that better opportunity, sticking around while the cap smoothing raises the pot for the middle would have been a good move. He would be looking at real money by the time we got his full bird, and decent money after year 2 once we got his early bird rights. His big mistake was leaving Washington as a UFA and losing them. He needed a sign and trade, even at a minimum, to preserve them. I feel bad for Tyus as I am fan of his and value his Minnesota roots.

[BlacJacMac]

I don't see us running Mike and Tyus together - ever. They're both small guards and neither can "guard up". Plus we're overloaded at SG as it is.

Again, you're giving hypotheticals that could conceivably happen if he signed with us. Phoenix gave him a defined role from Day 1.

Even if we had let Mike walk instead of extending him, I'm not convinced Tyus would have picked us over Phoenix. Especially with them bringing in Budenholzer - and, as I mentioned upthread, a much more stable (and wealthy) ownership.

[winforlose]

I don't see us running Mike and Tyus together - ever. They're both small guards and neither can "guard up". Plus we're overloaded at SG as it is.

Again, you're giving hypotheticals that could conceivably happen if he signed with us. Phoenix gave him a defined role from Day 1.

Even if we had let Mike walk instead of extending him, I'm not convinced Tyus would have picked us over Phoenix. Especially with them bringing in Budenholzer - and, as I mentioned upthread, a much more stable (and wealthy) ownership.

I am getting tired of being misquoted and having my point ignored. Paying Mike 10 million to be a backup and team leader isn’t that bad a move. He is a mentor to Ant, a calm stabilizing presence, and would perform much better at 20 MPG than 30. Hell, even Jim Pete was talking about Mike playing 25 MPG. It isn’t crazy or unusual to limit the work load of 37 year old players. Lebron is an exception to the age drop off rule. Westbrook is the more outcome. Getting Tyus as the primary with Mike as his backup is called great roster construction. It also allows Dilly to develop in a low pressure environment with hunger for minutes which gets filled in the G until Mike needs rest and then he is PG2 with Tyus. As for playing them together, we play Mike, DDV, and NAW together quite a bit without issue. Also remember DDV WAS NOT A WOLF at the time Tyus signed with the Suns. Maybe we don’t make that God awful trade if we have Tyus. We could have and should have given him that same promise and role and accommodated Mike another way.

Tyus is more likely than not leaving after one year. You cannot have it both ways. What does he care if the ownership is stable or not? Playing with Ant and Rudy makes him look much better than with Beal and Nurk. If Tyus wants to be with the Suns long term, then the Suns need to drop a hell of a lot of salary to get under the tax to get an MLE for him. Otherwise it is back to 120% of this year.

[BlacJacMac]

Playing with Ant and Rudy makes him look much better than with Beal and Nurk.

I give up. I can't argue in good faith if you don't.

How do you compare our two best players with, at best, their 3rd and 4th?

Or did you forget about Durant and Booker?

And I never misquoted you. I've been saying for years that Mike is a 25 MPG player. But then that makes Tyus a 23 MPG player. Even if you play them both 24 MPG, Tyus is not going to choose that over a clear starting job. (His primary back-up in Phoenix plays 13 MPG)

As for playing them together, we play Mike, DDV, and NAW together quite a bit without issue.

NAW and DDV are not PGs, so I'm not sure where you were even going with that...

Tyus is more likely than not leaving after one year. You cannot have it both ways. What does he care if the ownership is stable or not?

You don't think our ownership problems could provide distractions over the season? Or potentially scuttle any moves made during the year? We could literally still have a change in ownership during this year. None of that is happening in Phoenix.

[winforlose]

Playing with Ant and Rudy makes him look much better than with Beal and Nurk.

I give up. I can't argue in good faith if you don't.

How do you compare our two best players with, at best, their 3rd and 4th?

Or did you forget about Durant and Booker?

And I never misquoted you. I've been saying for years that Mike is a 25 MPG player. But then that makes Tyus a 23 MPG player. Even if you play them both 24 MPG, Tyus is not going to choose that over a clear starting job. (His primary back-up in Phoenix plays 13 MPG)

As for playing them together, we play Mike, DDV, and NAW together quite a bit without issue.

NAW and DDV are not PGs, so I'm not sure where you were even going with that...

Tyus is more likely than not leaving after one year. You cannot have it both ways. What does he care if the ownership is stable or not?

You don't think our ownership problems could provide distractions over the season? Or potentially scuttle any moves made during the year? We could literally still have a change in ownership during this year. None of that is happening in Phoenix.

I listed the full lineups above. I reference Ant and Rudy not because they are our best, but because they are our starting 2 and 5. You think backcourts aren’t judged as pairs. You think PNR with the starting C isn’t a major deal in evaluating a PG. Booker is moved to the 3 unless you pull Beal from the starting lineup. You talk about 10 million being on the bench, try 50. Also I said Tyus 28 and Mike 20. I said you could play Tyus 30 and Mike 20 with some overlap. DDV was playing PG for us, and NAW plays PG for us. You think Mike and Tyus is too small for 2 minutes? We played Mike with JMAC for longer last season. The 25 minutes was a reference to what Jim Pete talked about as a good target for Mike to persevere him for the playoffs. To put on a bow on it because you sometimes don’t follow, playing 3 guards works for us, so playing 2 PGs for a short stretch isn’t going to sink us, even if NAW and DDV are more SG who play PG rather than PG who play SG.

How do ownership issues affect Tyus on a prove it? You think we gonna trade Ant and blow up the team mid season? For Tyus that mess is only relevant in year 2. Moreover, we could and should have approached Washington about a sign and trade for his bird rights with a 2nd. It is found money for them, and the ability to keep him for us. The Suns should have as well, it was a dumb **** move on their part signing him as a free agent.

[BlacJacMac]

Playing with Ant and Rudy makes him look much better than with Beal and Nurk.

I give up. I can't argue in good faith if you don't.

How do you compare our two best players with, at best, their 3rd and 4th?

Or did you forget about Durant and Booker?

And I never misquoted you. I've been saying for years that Mike is a 25 MPG player. But then that makes Tyus a 23 MPG player. Even if you play them both 24 MPG, Tyus is not going to choose that over a clear starting job. (His primary back-up in Phoenix plays 13 MPG)

As for playing them together, we play Mike, DDV, and NAW together quite a bit without issue.

NAW and DDV are not PGs, so I'm not sure where you were even going with that...

Tyus is more likely than not leaving after one year. You cannot have it both ways. What does he care if the ownership is stable or not?

You don't think our ownership problems could provide distractions over the season? Or potentially scuttle any moves made during the year? We could literally still have a change in ownership during this year. None of that is happening in Phoenix.

I listed the full lineups above. I reference Ant and Rudy not because they are our best, but because they are our starting 2 and 5. You think backcourts aren’t judged as pairs. You think PNR with the starting C isn’t a major deal in evaluating a PG. Booker is moved to the 3 unless you pull Beal from the starting lineup. You talk about 10 million being on the bench, try 50. Also I said Tyus 28 and Mike 20. I said you could play Tyus 30 and Mike 20 with some overlap. DDV was playing PG for us, and NAW plays PG for us. You think Mike and Tyus is too small for 2 minutes? We played Mike with JMAC for longer last season. The 25 minutes was a reference to what Jim Pete talked about as a good target for Mike to persevere him for the playoffs. To put on a bow on it because you sometimes don’t follow, playing 3 guards works for us, so playing 2 PGs for a short stretch isn’t going to sink us, even if NAW and DDV are more SG who play PG rather than PG who play SG.

How do ownership issues affect Tyus on a prove it? You think we gonna trade Ant and blow up the team mid season? For Tyus that mess is only relevant in year 2. Moreover, we could and should have approached Washington about a sign and trade for his bird rights with a 2nd. It is found money for them, and the ability to keep him for us. The Suns should have as well, it was a dumb **** move on their part signing him as a free agent.

Its not about blowing up the team. Its about the distractions you can have during an ownership dispute. Have you ever been in a working environment where your bosses hate each other? All that **** can trickle down. Especially if it ends up going to court. Add in a GM that has an out after the year and all of that might prevent us from making a real move to try to put us over the top.

I get that you hate TC and he hasn't made any of the moves that you thought he would/should. But blaming him for not signing Tyus is not the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

[winforlose]

I give up. I can't argue in good faith if you don't.

How do you compare our two best players with, at best, their 3rd and 4th?

Or did you forget about Durant and Booker?

And I never misquoted you. I've been saying for years that Mike is a 25 MPG player. But then that makes Tyus a 23 MPG player. Even if you play them both 24 MPG, Tyus is not going to choose that over a clear starting job. (His primary back-up in Phoenix plays 13 MPG)



NAW and DDV are not PGs, so I'm not sure where you were even going with that...



You don't think our ownership problems could provide distractions over the season? Or potentially scuttle any moves made during the year? We could literally still have a change in ownership during this year. None of that is happening in Phoenix.

I listed the full lineups above. I reference Ant and Rudy not because they are our best, but because they are our starting 2 and 5. You think backcourts aren’t judged as pairs. You think PNR with the starting C isn’t a major deal in evaluating a PG. Booker is moved to the 3 unless you pull Beal from the starting lineup. You talk about 10 million being on the bench, try 50. Also I said Tyus 28 and Mike 20. I said you could play Tyus 30 and Mike 20 with some overlap. DDV was playing PG for us, and NAW plays PG for us. You think Mike and Tyus is too small for 2 minutes? We played Mike with JMAC for longer last season. The 25 minutes was a reference to what Jim Pete talked about as a good target for Mike to persevere him for the playoffs. To put on a bow on it because you sometimes don’t follow, playing 3 guards works for us, so playing 2 PGs for a short stretch isn’t going to sink us, even if NAW and DDV are more SG who play PG rather than PG who play SG.

How do ownership issues affect Tyus on a prove it? You think we gonna trade Ant and blow up the team mid season? For Tyus that mess is only relevant in year 2. Moreover, we could and should have approached Washington about a sign and trade for his bird rights with a 2nd. It is found money for them, and the ability to keep him for us. The Suns should have as well, it was a dumb **** move on their part signing him as a free agent.

Its not about blowing up the team. Its about the distractions you can have during an ownership dispute. Have you ever been in a working environment where your bosses hate each other? All that **** can trickle down. Especially if it ends up going to court. Add in a GM that has an out after the year and all of that might prevent us from making a real move to try to put us over the top.

I get that you hate TC and he hasn't made any of the moves that you thought he would/should. But blaming him for not signing Tyus is not the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

Do you stand behind PJ Dozier, Joe Ingles, and Luka Garza knowing what you know now? Do you stand behind cutting KBD instead of Dozier knowing what you know now? Do you stand behind the KAT trade knowing what you know now. All these moves were terrible, and they are all on TC. Any argument to the contrary ignores that he is POBO and roster construction is on him. This roster is deficient at two key positions, and over stocked at SG and SF. We cannot even develop TSJ with DDV blocking the way. We would be idiots to move on from NAW (which it looks like will happen,) we aren’t playing Miller (more on Finch than TC,) and we are playing Randle (on both Finch and TC.) We are broken because people are breaking us, you either get that or you don’t.

[shrink]

Mike was tired by the end of last season, but he was the magic ingredient that fixed our team from the DLo days, plus he was the only player on the team that could unlock offense from Gobert. He wanted to stay here, so he was going to get paid, and both sides would be happy.

Last season we made the trade for Monte Morris so we would have his Bird rights and could bring him back.

The big change of course occurred at the draft, when Connelly decided to use an unprotected future 1st and a pick swap to get Dillingham, and he told everyone that he was going to play him a lot right away. The draft comes before free agency, so Morris didn’t want to be here (he probably thought he would start for the Suns) and it wouldn’t be a good place for Tyus to want to go.

And of course, when free agency started, all we could offer was a vet min, and Tyus apparently was turning down better offers.

In perfect hindsight, if we knew Tyus would play on a vet min deal, if he got to be the starting PG of a playoff team, I think he might choose MIN over PHX for the hometown appeal. However, it would have been too dangerous to not line up a legit starting PG’s before then, expecting an unsigned Tyus would still be available for a vet min, a month after free agency opened.

[winforlose]

Mike was tired by the end of last season, but he was the magic ingredient that fixed our team from the DLo days, plus he was the only player on the team that could unlock offense from Gobert. He wanted to stay here, so he was going to get paid, and both sides would be happy.

Last season we made the trade for Monte Morris so we would have his Bird rights and could bring him back.

The big change of course occurred at the draft, when Connelly decided to use an unprotected future 1st and a pick swap to get Dillingham, and he told everyone that he was going to play him a lot right away. The draft comes before free agency, so Morris didn’t want to be here (he probably thought he would start for the Suns) and it wouldn’t be a good place for Tyus to want to go.

And of course, when free agency started, all we could offer was a vet min, and Tyus apparently was turning down better offers.

In perfect hindsight, if we knew Tyus would play on a vet min deal, if he got to be the starting PG of a playoff team, I think he might choose MIN over PHX for the hometown appeal. However, it would have been too dangerous to not line up a legit starting PG’s before then, expecting an unsigned Tyus would still be available for a vet min, a month after free agency opened.

No one is saying Mike wasn’t great in 23/24. Some of us were saying it was unlikely that continued into 24/25. You have to plan assuming a drop off. Deep playoff runs take time to recover from. Mike is no spring chicken. He also didn’t rest much during the regular season and played a high minute load. Dilly as the PGOF makes some sense. But as an undersized 19 year old coming into a contending rotation, (especially one with a defensive identity,) Dilly makes little sense this year. We hoped DDV would be that bridge, but that was a failure of scouting and one that happened after Tyus signed with the Suns. A promise to make Tyus PG 1, Mike PG2, and Dilly PG3 plus bird rights through a sign and trade with Washington was the optimal recruit Tyus route. You don’t go into a season with a deficiency at the PG or C, we had one in each position.

[TimberKat]

18-11 would be at 50 games pace. I think if we run it back, we would have 20 wins. Towns seem stronger and release the shots quicker this year. He likely wasn't 100% when he came back. If we kept Towns, I think Dilly would get more chance to play too. Many of us complain about Ant before but was excused because he was young. I think that excuse expired this year. I said many times before, Ant's next level is not measured by shooting 3s but how well he passes the ball. Unfortunately, he has taken a step so far.

So we'd be at the same pace as last year despite one of our top players clearly declining? KAT's play this year is about him having better matchups vs other centers and the spacing around him. He wouldn't have that here. We saw KAT with this squad for a long stretch of time. One could make a case that KAT would've been worse with the Wolves this year given the worse spacing playing with Jaden and Conley who have both regressed as shooters. Ant's shooting is up, but it's not like he was ever being ignored anyway.

We we won at the same pace with and without KAT last year including when he was healthy.

Dilly playing more surely would mean more losses. I know people love his electric style (I do too), but his minutes on the court are currently still better for the other team than ours. Rookies just don't positively impact winning except in rare cases.

So Conley and Gobert are getting older but don't you think other players like Ant, Naz, NAW, JMcD, Minott, and Dilly, and Towns are supposed to get better and are more familiar with the system? They could add to last year's schemes? That should make up for Conley's decline , especially against a weaker schedule with many opponent's key players out?

I actually think KAT would have a very good year with Twolves. Not all his "number" improvements are due to different scheme and players around him. Have you actually watched how he plays this year? Don't you think his 3 pt releases were faster then last year? He is going to play just as well, maybe even better when Robinson comes back.

[shrink]

Sorry to bring up the Towns trade, but I was trying to consider Tim Connelly’s motivations.

When people see a problem, they tend to see the solution in through their own personal view. For example, if there is a problem in a foreign country, a general tends to see military solutions, an ambassador sees diplomatic solutions, etc. Do you think Connelly saw the huge restrictions that the new apron rules would bring, and thought, “We need to get off Towns’ contract to untie my hands for the future?”