With the 45th pick, the Raptors select Jamal Shead

[Vampirate]

Can we retire FVV in this thread please

Gonna be tough because the fact of the matter is they are both very similar players. FVV is Sheads likely ceiling, and they are similar in terms of being undersized, hard workers, and both late 2nds/UDFAs

FVV would be a great player for Shead to mold his game after. FVV made a career off really protecting the ball, shooting it well, and defending way above his height. Those are 3 things Shead should really attempt to incorporate into his game as best he can.

Shooting = so far so good
Defending = so far so good
Protecting the ball = dreadful. Among qualifying players (if he qualified, which he doesn't), he would be bottom 3 in the NBA in TO%

Jamal has more athleticism than FVV does (better driver) and blows rookie FVV out of the water.

FVV is likely the better shooter due to the FT disparity, but I think Jamal has better physical tools.

The difference between the 2 from 10-16 feet is eye opening.

FVV's best year in that range is .459

Jamal Shead this year is .607.

Yeah, Shead's mid range is better than anywhere else on the floor, including the 3 probably.

As to the bold, that TO% is made up for the fact he has an assist rate even better than Barnes.

What's really might hold back Shead is the Ftr and FT%, but otherwise, offensively he beats FVV imo.

[YogurtProducer]

Can we retire FVV in this thread please

Gonna be tough because the fact of the matter is they are both very similar players. FVV is Sheads likely ceiling, and they are similar in terms of being undersized, hard workers, and both late 2nds/UDFAs

FVV would be a great player for Shead to mold his game after. FVV made a career off really protecting the ball, shooting it well, and defending way above his height. Those are 3 things Shead should really attempt to incorporate into his game as best he can.

Shooting = so far so good
Defending = so far so good
Protecting the ball = dreadful. Among qualifying players (if he qualified, which he doesn't), he would be bottom 3 in the NBA in TO%

Jamal has more athleticism than FVV does (better driver) and blows rookie FVV out of the water.

FVV is likely the better shooter due to the FT disparity, but I think Jamal has better physical tools.

The difference between the 2 from 10-16 feet is eye opening.

FVV's best year in that range is .459

Jamal Shead this year is .607.

Yeah, Shead's mid range is better than anywhere else on the floor, including the 3 probably.

As to the bold, that TO% is made up for the fact he has an assist rate even better than Barnes.

Lets just chill on this.

I don't think Shead really has more athletic ability than young FVV. They are fairly similar athletic profiles.

Shead hit 127 3's in 238 college games at a 29.6% rate. FVV hit 141 in 141 games at a 38.6% clip. UNtil we get a better sample, it is tough to say if Shead is even an average shooter, let alone borderline elite like FVV was for a few years (was high volume + high % for many years)

Jamal has shot 38 mid ranget shots all year. His 60.7% is such a small sample we can barely even comment on it.

And no, his assist rate does not make up for it. FVV was like a 3.50 A/T ratio kind of guy. Shead is 2.3 right now, below Davion and IQ. In our championship season Lowry was 3.1 and FVV was 3.7. Shead has a LONG way to go here.

What's really might hold back Shead is the Ftr and FT%, but otherwise, offensively he beats FVV imo.

Jesus **** christ. You guys have no ability to be subjective re: FVV anymore.

Shead does NOTHING better than FVV does offensively right now. Nothing. Not saying he can't improve, but if he was better than FVV offensively he would be a **** starting PG from day 1

[youngRAPZ]

Can we retire FVV in this thread please

Gonna be tough because the fact of the matter is they are both very similar players. FVV is Sheads likely ceiling, and they are similar in terms of being undersized, hard workers, and both late 2nds/UDFAs

FVV would be a great player for Shead to mold his game after. FVV made a career off really protecting the ball, shooting it well, and defending way above his height. Those are 3 things Shead should really attempt to incorporate into his game as best he can.

Shooting = so far so good
Defending = so far so good
Protecting the ball = dreadful. Among qualifying players (if he qualified, which he doesn't), he would be bottom 3 in the NBA in TO%

Yeh I get that but I just spent 2 pages reading about mostly FVV in a Jamal Shead thread. You aren’t gonna change their minds on FVV. We couldn’t when he was here and we won’t now that he’s gone so who cares if they think Shead is better than FVV. Right now he’s their shiny new toy by year 3 he will be getting the Davion treatment most likely. Fans gonna fan especially Toronto raptors fans.

[Vampirate]

Gonna be tough because the fact of the matter is they are both very similar players. FVV is Sheads likely ceiling, and they are similar in terms of being undersized, hard workers, and both late 2nds/UDFAs

FVV would be a great player for Shead to mold his game after. FVV made a career off really protecting the ball, shooting it well, and defending way above his height. Those are 3 things Shead should really attempt to incorporate into his game as best he can.

Shooting = so far so good
Defending = so far so good
Protecting the ball = dreadful. Among qualifying players (if he qualified, which he doesn't), he would be bottom 3 in the NBA in TO%

Jamal has more athleticism than FVV does (better driver) and blows rookie FVV out of the water.

FVV is likely the better shooter due to the FT disparity, but I think Jamal has better physical tools.

The difference between the 2 from 10-16 feet is eye opening.

FVV's best year in that range is .459

Jamal Shead this year is .607.

Yeah, Shead's mid range is better than anywhere else on the floor, including the 3 probably.

As to the bold, that TO% is made up for the fact he has an assist rate even better than Barnes.

Lets just chill on this.

I don't think Shead really has more athletic ability than young FVV. They are fairly similar athletic profiles.

Shead hit 127 3's in 238 college games at a 29.6% rate. FVV hit 141 in 141 games at a 38.6% clip. UNtil we get a better sample, it is tough to say if Shead is even an average shooter, let alone borderline elite like FVV was for a few years (was high volume + high % for many years)

Jamal has shot 38 mid ranget shots all year. His 60.7% is such a small sample we can barely even comment on it.

And no, his assist rate does not make up for it. FVV was like a 3.50 A/T ratio kind of guy. Shead is 2.3 right now, below Davion and IQ. In our championship season Lowry was 3.1 and FVV was 3.7. Shead has a LONG way to go here.

What's really might hold back Shead is the Ftr and FT%, but otherwise, offensively he beats FVV imo.

Jesus **** christ. You guys have no ability to be subjective re: FVV anymore.

Shead does NOTHING better than FVV does offensively right now. Nothing. Not saying he can't improve, but if he was better than FVV offensively he would be a **** starting PG from day 1

I've already given FVV the nod as a 3P shooter over Shead, I don't know what you are complaining about.

It's the 2P scoring in which Shead is beating FVV at.

FVV's highest 2P% is .465 (this year), career .439%

Shead's 2P% (as a rookie) is .480

If we compare Shead to 2nd year FVV it gets much worse.

FVV 2nd year is a .437% 2P scorer, Shead this year is a .480.

FVV has routinely shot below .400 from 3-10 ft, Shead is at .415 in his rookie year.

2nd year FVV was at .236.

FVV 2nd year in totality
(0-3).567/(3-10) .236/ (10-16) .05 / (16-3p) .357/ (3P).414

Shead thus far
(0-3ft) .577/ (3-10) .415/ (10-16).607/ /(16-3P) .000/ (3P) .370


That .607 from 10-16ft is for 15.3% of his total shots, more than he has at the rim.

As is FVV is looking to be the better 3P shooter, while Shead is the better 2P scorer, I don't know how you can just hand wave shooting over 50% at mid range on a good chunk as a rookie.

[brownbobcat]

As is FVV is looking to be the better 3P shooter, while Shead is the better 2P scorer, I don't know how you can just hand wave shooting over 50% at mid range on a good chunk as a rookie.

Nobody pays attention to Shead and he gets assisted on a large % of his shots - it should be obvious to take his very limited data in 37 games with a large grain of salt, right? If we're talking about players who are more athletic and longer than FVV, that's at least 98% of the league.

[YogurtProducer]

That .607 from 10-16ft is for 15.3% of his total shots, more than he has at the rim.

As is FVV is looking to be the better 3P shooter, while Shead is the better 2P scorer, I don't know how you can just hand wave shooting over 50% at mid range on a good chunk as a rookie.

I can hand wave it before it’s 60% (no one shoots that well from that range), and because it’s a total of like 35 shot attempts I’m not putting stick into ANY sample that is 35.

I’m sure I can go find a 2-game stretch of FVVs career where he’s scored like 60 points on 35 shots over two games. Doesn’t mean he’s a 30ppg scorer.

FVV in year 2 was leading the bench mob and was game planned for on a damn good team. No one in the NBA gives a god damn **** what Shead is doing, he just isn’t a main concern for oppponents.

[Vampirate]

As is FVV is looking to be the better 3P shooter, while Shead is the better 2P scorer, I don't know how you can just hand wave shooting over 50% at mid range on a good chunk as a rookie.

Nobody pays attention to Shead and he gets assisted on a large % of his shots - it should be obvious to take his very limited data in 37 games with a large grain of salt, right? If we're talking about players who are more athletic and longer than FVV, that's at least 98% of the league.

Thing is FVV's value mainly is from 3P shooting, he's a notoriously awful 2 point scorer. If he was better than you would have the sub 40% FG seasons FVV has.

Fred is an excellent 3P shooter but very bad 2P one.

Shead looks to be on a different path, decent 2P scorer, decent 3P scorer.

Again, what's holding Shead back atm is his .120 FTr and .682 FT%.

I'd say Shead is more of the driver type from what i've seen and seems to have some range from 3-16 feet, if he can't get to the rim.

Neither Shead nor FVV are good finishers, but shead at least statistically has the better in between game thus far.

As for Shead's 3P shooting, that's more suspect than him being good at 10-16ft probably.

You can say Shead will regress in that range, but then you have to ask 'to what'?

[brownbobcat]

Thing is FVV's value mainly is from 3P shooting, he's a notoriously awful 2 point scorer. If he was better than you would have the sub 40% FG seasons FVV has.

And I agree about that being FVV's primary offensive weapon, I'm pointing out why you can't point to this one aspect of the game as any indication of Shead's ceiling. Lots of players are bigger and better inside finishers than FVV, but most are not better overall.

FVV does his work against starters and against guys who have him on the scouting report and know all about his weaknesses. You can't meaningfully compare numbers right now. He's a plus defender at a position that is loaded with offensive talent across the NBA. If Shead ever becomes a solid rotation backup PG in the league, that's already a huge win for Masai.

[Boogie!]

Shead shooting 3s has really made a difference on his impact. I wasn’t that high on him… I still don’t see him being a great playmaker… but 3 and d from the pg position around someone like Scottie is a decent fit. Again it all really stems from his shot making ability. That’s been the difference lately

[Dennis 37]

Practically every single season of FVV's career the team was much better when he was on the court then when he wasn't. His EPM right now in his worst shooting season is still one of the best in the league. Every season he was with the Raptors his EPM (and all his other advanced stats) painted him as a super impactful player.

He has limitations but there is very little doubt that he's not a player that contributes to winning, including in many ways that are not self serving such as on the defensive end.

It's been pointed out but why else would winning coaches like Nick Nurse and Ime Udoka continue to have FVV lead the team in minutes played year after year. Has he conned two different great coaches about how he's actually self-serving?

If Shead ever gets to being at 80% of FVV's level we will have gotten a huge steal.

Thing is, Shead will never be the 2nd option on offense, so he will never get the points FVV gets.

As for Nurse, Philadelphia fans are screaming for him to be fired.

Masai said himself that he observed selfishness. Nurse tolerated that selfishness.

Selfishness was a feature, not a bug. Nurse's entire system was based around winning the possession game. That meant less passing and more iso play so that we wouldn't turn the ball over. Nurse-ball was designed to cover our inept half court offense. There is a pretty clear reason we led the league in both forcing turnovers and not committing turnovers in Nurse's last year.

We played an extremely conservative half court style under Nurse. One of the main reasons why Nurse got fired was because Masai wanted a less "selfish" playstyle (as seen with the implementation of Darko's ball movement system).

"Selfishness" was part of the (Nurse) system and how we managed to squeeze blood from a stone offensively.

Selfishness is not making safe passes and taking open shots. Selfishness is driving into three taller players thinking you alone are the hero.

[Dennis 37]

Gonna be tough because the fact of the matter is they are both very similar players. FVV is Sheads likely ceiling, and they are similar in terms of being undersized, hard workers, and both late 2nds/UDFAs

FVV would be a great player for Shead to mold his game after. FVV made a career off really protecting the ball, shooting it well, and defending way above his height. Those are 3 things Shead should really attempt to incorporate into his game as best he can.

Shooting = so far so good
Defending = so far so good
Protecting the ball = dreadful. Among qualifying players (if he qualified, which he doesn't), he would be bottom 3 in the NBA in TO%

Jamal has more athleticism than FVV does (better driver) and blows rookie FVV out of the water.

FVV is likely the better shooter due to the FT disparity, but I think Jamal has better physical tools.

The difference between the 2 from 10-16 feet is eye opening.

FVV's best year in that range is .459

Jamal Shead this year is .607.

Yeah, Shead's mid range is better than anywhere else on the floor, including the 3 probably.

As to the bold, that TO% is made up for the fact he has an assist rate even better than Barnes.

Lets just chill on this.

I don't think Shead really has more athletic ability than young FVV. They are fairly similar athletic profiles.

Shead hit 127 3's in 238 college games at a 29.6% rate. FVV hit 141 in 141 games at a 38.6% clip. UNtil we get a better sample, it is tough to say if Shead is even an average shooter, let alone borderline elite like FVV was for a few years (was high volume + high % for many years)

Jamal has shot 38 mid ranget shots all year. His 60.7% is such a small sample we can barely even comment on it.

And no, his assist rate does not make up for it. FVV was like a 3.50 A/T ratio kind of guy. Shead is 2.3 right now, below Davion and IQ. In our championship season Lowry was 3.1 and FVV was 3.7. Shead has a LONG way to go here.

What's really might hold back Shead is the Ftr and FT%, but otherwise, offensively he beats FVV imo.

Jesus **** christ. You guys have no ability to be subjective re: FVV anymore.

Shead does NOTHING better than FVV does offensively right now. Nothing. Not saying he can't improve, but if he was better than FVV offensively he would be a **** starting PG from day 1

Are you comparing Shead to 1st year FVV or championship FVV? FVV wasn't a starting calibre PG in his first year. If he was he wouldn't have gone undrafted.

[Los_29]

Gonna be tough because the fact of the matter is they are both very similar players. FVV is Sheads likely ceiling, and they are similar in terms of being undersized, hard workers, and both late 2nds/UDFAs

FVV would be a great player for Shead to mold his game after. FVV made a career off really protecting the ball, shooting it well, and defending way above his height. Those are 3 things Shead should really attempt to incorporate into his game as best he can.

Shooting = so far so good
Defending = so far so good
Protecting the ball = dreadful. Among qualifying players (if he qualified, which he doesn't), he would be bottom 3 in the NBA in TO%

Jamal has more athleticism than FVV does (better driver) and blows rookie FVV out of the water.

FVV is likely the better shooter due to the FT disparity, but I think Jamal has better physical tools.

The difference between the 2 from 10-16 feet is eye opening.

FVV's best year in that range is .459

Jamal Shead this year is .607.

Yeah, Shead's mid range is better than anywhere else on the floor, including the 3 probably.

As to the bold, that TO% is made up for the fact he has an assist rate even better than Barnes.

Lets just chill on this.

I don't think Shead really has more athletic ability than young FVV. They are fairly similar athletic profiles.

Shead hit 127 3's in 238 college games at a 29.6% rate. FVV hit 141 in 141 games at a 38.6% clip. UNtil we get a better sample, it is tough to say if Shead is even an average shooter, let alone borderline elite like FVV was for a few years (was high volume + high % for many years)

Jamal has shot 38 mid ranget shots all year. His 60.7% is such a small sample we can barely even comment on it.

And no, his assist rate does not make up for it. FVV was like a 3.50 A/T ratio kind of guy. Shead is 2.3 right now, below Davion and IQ. In our championship season Lowry was 3.1 and FVV was 3.7. Shead has a LONG way to go here.

What's really might hold back Shead is the Ftr and FT%, but otherwise, offensively he beats FVV imo.

Jesus **** christ. You guys have no ability to be subjective re: FVV anymore.

Shead does NOTHING better than FVV does offensively right now. Nothing. Not saying he can't improve, but if he was better than FVV offensively he would be a **** starting PG from day 1

I’m genuinely shocked at what I’ve been reading. Just a complete inability to be objective. They let their feelings get in the way of evaluating players.

I like Shead and I think he’s got potential to be a solid back-up point guard. However, right now he’s miles away from being as good as Fred is. Fred is better than Shead at nearly everything.

Man, this place is wild. lol.

[YogurtProducer]

[/b]

Jamal has more athleticism than FVV does (better driver) and blows rookie FVV out of the water.

FVV is likely the better shooter due to the FT disparity, but I think Jamal has better physical tools.

The difference between the 2 from 10-16 feet is eye opening.

FVV's best year in that range is .459

Jamal Shead this year is .607.

Yeah, Shead's mid range is better than anywhere else on the floor, including the 3 probably.

As to the bold, that TO% is made up for the fact he has an assist rate even better than Barnes.

Lets just chill on this.

I don't think Shead really has more athletic ability than young FVV. They are fairly similar athletic profiles.

Shead hit 127 3's in 238 college games at a 29.6% rate. FVV hit 141 in 141 games at a 38.6% clip. UNtil we get a better sample, it is tough to say if Shead is even an average shooter, let alone borderline elite like FVV was for a few years (was high volume + high % for many years)

Jamal has shot 38 mid ranget shots all year. His 60.7% is such a small sample we can barely even comment on it.

And no, his assist rate does not make up for it. FVV was like a 3.50 A/T ratio kind of guy. Shead is 2.3 right now, below Davion and IQ. In our championship season Lowry was 3.1 and FVV was 3.7. Shead has a LONG way to go here.

What's really might hold back Shead is the Ftr and FT%, but otherwise, offensively he beats FVV imo.

Jesus **** christ. You guys have no ability to be subjective re: FVV anymore.

Shead does NOTHING better than FVV does offensively right now. Nothing. Not saying he can't improve, but if he was better than FVV offensively he would be a **** starting PG from day 1

Are you comparing Shead to 1st year FVV or championship FVV? FVV wasn't a starting calibre PG in his first year. If he was he wouldn't have gone undrafted.

Vampire appears to be comparing FVV's entire career, so I assume peak or average FVV?

And to be fair, FVV was a 2nd round talent who refused a two-way thing (or was it a G-League rights thing?) which is why he went undrafted. He would've been drafted in the current NBA climate of two-way deals.

Shead went 45th in a weak class, FVV maybe goes early 2nd.

[sbsat]

I'll never understand why this place devalues FVV so much. You have all just been smacked in the face with the ultimate proof that despite his efficiency issues, he has went to houston and helped turn that program around in a big way. No one in that organization is griping about what they are getting out of him vs what they paid him to come. Stop anchoring so hard to an opinion.

Shead you can definitely see something there, you saw it right out the gate but the odds of him ever being even close to FVV in terms of full body of work is extremely remote.

[PushDaRock]

Right now, Shead is scoring at 12.4 ppg PER 36. That's not an offensive threat at all. We can be semi hopeful of the 3 point shooting % but also recognize the sample size is so tiny and the track record being what it is means we should also take it with a grain of salt.

[raptorforlife88]

I'll never understand why this place devalues FVV so much. You have all just been smacked in the face with the ultimate proof that despite his efficiency issues, he has went to houston and helped turn that program around in a big way. No one in that organization is griping about what they are getting out of him vs what they paid him to come. Stop anchoring so hard to an opinion.

Shead you can definitely see something there, you saw it right out the gate but the odds of him ever being even close to FVV in terms of full body of work is extremely remote.

The cognitive dissonance is amazing. He's struggling shooting for sure this year, and yet he's the guy playing the most minutes on a 27-13 team. That probably says something about the quality of player he is outside of his scoring and how he's valued by that organization. It's not as if they don't have capable backup guards either, he gets the minutes anyways. And as noted he's still near the top of the league in EPM.

I think that probably says more than the anecdotal evidence involving memories of your frustration of FVV driving into traffic.

[HiJiNX]

FVV did some frustrating things but it’s hard to argue that he wasn’t a damn good player for us. If Shead ever becomes that good I’d be very happy.

[Thaddy]

This guy is overrated. He's an older prospect at 22 and he's been leaking on defense despite that being his calling. His DBPM, DDARKO, DDRIP, and crafted DPM all rank 20th percentile in the NBA. That's **** brutal man.

Our back up C and PG positions are huge issues. If we ended up with the 7th pick and there's an opportunity to move down and get two picks between 10-20 and take Fland and Maluach I would take it. That could change the trajectory of our record next season and keep our starters' legs fresh and injury-free.

There's a chance he can improve but right now you have to say he has poor positional size, and shooting. That's a deadly combo (for us).

Learn more here: https://craftednba.com/players/jamal-shead

[FOB]

I'll never understand the compulsive need for ridiculously simplistic, overly black-and-white argumentation.

I loathed Fred for his frustrating pounding-the-rock, driving into three defenders, I'm the big man PG style after the '19 run. Does that mean any semi-promising second round pick (and I love Shead so far) is better than him? **** no, that's ridiculous.

FVV: I'm glad he's gone, but I can admit he still brings value to teams in this league. He helped bring us a championship ffs.
Shead: Very fun kid for how low he was drafted. Excited to see how he'll develop.
Overall: Nuance is not a french dessert. Get over your fragile little ego and be fair - your life will be better for it.

[FOB]

This guy is overrated. He's an older prospect at 22 and he's been leaking on defense despite that being his calling. His DBPM, DDARKO, DDRIP, and crafted DPM all rank 20th percentile in the NBA. That's **** brutal man.

Our back up C and PG positions are huge issues. If we ended up with the 7th pick and there's an opportunity to move down and get two picks between 10-20 and take Fland and Maluach I would take it. That could change the trajectory of our record next season and keep our starters' legs fresh and injury-free.

There's a chance he can improve but right now you have to say he has poor positional size, and shooting. That's a deadly combo (for us).

Learn more here: https://craftednba.com/players/jamal-shead

I see your point, but I'm always a bit careful when it comes to raw numbers without context. I'd be more interested in a comparison of Shead's numbers agains other rookie PGs who turned out to be rotation players, and even then the numbers don't show the history of a player's flaws, his propensity to improve when put into a good development program, etc.

For now, I'm rooting for the kid because I've seen a great attitude and flashes of skill and improvement, and I'll leave the rest to the professionals. Not so concerned with our backup PG issues at this moment, that's a piece you can add once you're trying to be competitive.