Who's higher all-time: Kawhi or Harden?

[SerialChiller]

Kawhi's run with the Raptors outdoes Hardens entire career combined for me. Then there are 2 FMVPs and 2 Defensive player of the year awards both of which Harden will never sniff and could only dream of.

[JM00n69]

I think you have to give it to Harden simply because of the amount of games Kahwi has missed due to injuries. OP is asking higher all time, not highest peak or best season here. Availability becomes a major factor when you have missed that many games, Kawhi has cracked 70+ only twice

[xinxin]

I don’t even like Harden, but I’m voting Harden here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RRR3]

We all watched old man Ginobili destroy Harden in the playoffs and have watched Harden underperform in series after series, yet some people still have the audacity to say he's better than Kawhi? It's the epitome of style over substance. One guy elevates his game when it matters most, the other is inconsistent at best when it matters most.

No one said he's better the question is who's higher all-time. Bill Walton was certainly a better player than Paul Pierce, but I don't think any legitimate all-time list has Walton over Pierce. You have to be on the court.

Walton was an MVP, Finals MVP, 2X All Star, 2X All NBA, 2X All Defensive, 1X Block Champ, 1X Rebound Champ, 1X Sixth Man of the Year. Yeah, I think you could make a pretty credible case for him over Pierce all time.

Kawhi is higher all time. Harden's accolades aren't that much better so that it negates Kawhi's clearly superior peak.

Walton played 123 games (plus 21 in the playoffs) at his prime level. Pierce was possibly at least all-star level from 1999-2013. This isn't a debate. It's like saying Derrick Rose had a better career than Gary Payton.

[UglyBugBall]

When has Kawhi ever been mentioned as the best player in the NBA? He was the best player in the NBA during that playoff run with Raps.

Never ever heard Kawhi being mentioned as the best player. One of the best sure but he's clearly been overshadowed by a bunch of players.

I honestly think Kawhi was the best player in the NBA in 2019. I know he was load managed, but as a Raptors fan it was surreal to watch.

Thats funny considering the actual best player in the NBA that very year, is the guy he’s compared to in this very thread lol.

Harden averaged 36, 7.5 and 6.6 on elite efficiency absolutely carrying a squad that was trying to fit the leftovers of Carmelo which caused them to start something like 10-14 record with no Chris Paul. After that Chris Paul AND Clint both missed another 2 months each in the middle of the year and Harden was out there with Tucker, House, Macklemore, Gordon and rookie Hartenstein averaging 40 pts triple doubles for what seemed like 2 months. Most of these guys aren’t even real NBA players anymore, and no, its not because of age, except maybe Tucker.

Harden took that rockets team to 53-29 and 4th place in a much stronger west conference and the only reason he wasn’t back to back mvp was cause the Bucks had a measly 7 more wins despite playing against much weaker opponents in the east most of the time - and in those days, ‘muh team record’ was still sadly one of the top arguments in mvp voting, something we finally saw come to an end recently with jokic winning as a 6th seed and such (which I have zero problem with, always should be like that, team record should matter but context should matter more).

Harden has BOTH a better peak and much better career than Kawhi. Unless you’re the type to overvalue team rings as individual accomplishments (hint: they’re not), then it should be pretty clear. And that’s not to take anything away from Kawhi, he was a beast too, but he’s also benefited from playing on much better structured teams than Harden, and THATS what matters for rings, not how great one individual guy is.

Harden is a great player to have in games that don't matter. He'll put up numbers in the regular season and fall off in the playoffs. He's like the anti Luka. Guys like Leonard, Lebron, Luka get better in the playoffs. Harden goes from a top 3 player to a Demar Derozan. Kawhii has had multiple playoff runs more impressive individually (even if we remove the rings argument, which we shouldn't) than Hardens best. Harden is like that kid in class that get straight A's throughout high-school but never amounts to anything after he graduates. Kawhii is the kid that drops out and then goes and builds Microsoft.

[Ssj16]

Kawhi would not have won if KD or Klay didn't get hurt

Now imagine if Hardens rockets didn't have cp3 get hurt, or KD/Klay were out when they played them in 2018. It would have been a different series.

Kawhis other ring came as a supporting player on the Spurs.

It would've definitely been a much tougher series, but it's not a given that we would have lost in 2019 even with KD and Klay fully healthy(Klay only missed 1 full game and actually played 32 mins in G6). Also may I remind you that the 2019 Rocket team actually lost to Golden State without KD for the entire series.

Likewise in 2018, obviously losing CP3 was massive but that doesn't guarantee a win either. Now I would concede that having Paul would have have probably prevented the team from missing 27 straight 3's but Harden also played like **** in the two closing games. He went a combined 22/53 FG (6/25 from deep) and had 15 assists to 14 turnovers as an combined -34 for both games.

You also have to imagine Kawhi 100% as well if we are doing hypotheticals. Because he was probably at 80% in the finals and still put in work and Raptors don't get credit for our all around solid team.

Still breaks my heart Kawhi gave up the best team he had while being the number 1 option for the Clips.

[dirkdiggler4177]

Who cares about the regular season? You never see people here talk about Kevin Martin or Troy Murphy.

Kawhi got like 140 playoff games and Harden got 166. Kawhi even started in more playoff games than Harden. Even if you count the regular season games, Harden only played in half of them considering he only played on one side of the floor.

[metalinguss]

I can't imagine ranking Leonard over Harden here. The gap is massive here. Leonard is certainly an interesting case study, as he obviously had an insane run in 2019...though even then he was banged up in the finals.

Then imagine

Championships

Kawhi - 1

Harden -0

Kawhi by a landslide

Counting rings is for children and ESPN employees.

Right it's not like Kawhi has 2 finals MVPs and 2 DPOYs to his name.

Oh wait.

And yeah, dude got it wrong. Kawhi has 2 rings, Harden - 0

[metalinguss]

I can't imagine ranking Leonard over Harden here. The gap is massive here. Leonard is certainly an interesting case study, as he obviously had an insane run in 2019...though even then he was banged up in the finals.

Then imagine

Championships

Kawhi - 1

Harden -0

Kawhi by a landslide

Kawhi has 2 btw.

[dhsilv2]

Then imagine

Championships

Kawhi - 1

Harden -0

Kawhi by a landslide

Counting rings is for children and ESPN employees.

Right it's not like Kawhi has 2 finals MVPs and 2 DPOYs to his name.

Oh wait.

And yeah, dude got it wrong. Kawhi has 2 rings, Harden - 0

The DPOY award is relevant. The rings aren't.

[Haldi]

I honestly think Kawhi was the best player in the NBA in 2019. I know he was load managed, but as a Raptors fan it was surreal to watch.

Thats funny considering the actual best player in the NBA that very year, is the guy he’s compared to in this very thread lol.

Harden averaged 36, 7.5 and 6.6 on elite efficiency absolutely carrying a squad that was trying to fit the leftovers of Carmelo which caused them to start something like 10-14 record with no Chris Paul. After that Chris Paul AND Clint both missed another 2 months each in the middle of the year and Harden was out there with Tucker, House, Macklemore, Gordon and rookie Hartenstein averaging 40 pts triple doubles for what seemed like 2 months. Most of these guys aren’t even real NBA players anymore, and no, its not because of age, except maybe Tucker.

Harden took that rockets team to 53-29 and 4th place in a much stronger west conference and the only reason he wasn’t back to back mvp was cause the Bucks had a measly 7 more wins despite playing against much weaker opponents in the east most of the time - and in those days, ‘muh team record’ was still sadly one of the top arguments in mvp voting, something we finally saw come to an end recently with jokic winning as a 6th seed and such (which I have zero problem with, always should be like that, team record should matter but context should matter more).

Harden has BOTH a better peak and much better career than Kawhi. Unless you’re the type to overvalue team rings as individual accomplishments (hint: they’re not), then it should be pretty clear. And that’s not to take anything away from Kawhi, he was a beast too, but he’s also benefited from playing on much better structured teams than Harden, and THATS what matters for rings, not how great one individual guy is.

Harden is a great player to have in games that don't matter. He'll put up numbers in the regular season and fall off in the playoffs. He's like the anti Luka. Guys like Leonard, Lebron, Luka get better in the playoffs. Harden goes from a top 3 player to a Demar Derozan. Kawhii has had multiple playoff runs more impressive individually (even if we remove the rings argument, which we shouldn't) than Hardens best. Harden is like that kid in class that get straight A's throughout high-school but never amounts to anything after he graduates. Kawhii is the kid that drops out and then goes and builds Microsoft.

Put Kawhi on any of Hardens teams instead of the ones he got to play on and he would have exactly 0 championships as well and would’ve performed worst as well - tends to happen when the defense can just focus on you the entire time cause you’re on the floor with 4 guys like Gordon, Ariza, Tucker and Cappela. Literally only Gordon is an offensive threat in that group lol, the others you can just leave absolutely wide open without a care in the world. Kawhi would’ve done dick all with a group like that in the regular season and even less so in the playoffs. Add Chris Paul to that roster for one more half of basketball, and that roster wouldve beat the Durant Warriors, aka the best team of all time, and Harden would have one of the best rings of all time. Hell, just don’t Scott Foster game 7 and he still wins that without his second best player lol.

The next year in 2019, without Chris Paul for 2 and half months at the start of the season and for most of the middle of the season and without Clint for a month and a half, Kawhi doesn’t even make the playoffs with guys like Gordon, House, Tucker, Macklemore and rookie Hartenstein. That team probably finishes in like 10th or 11th in the West, and Im imagining a world where Leonard actually plays 78 of 82 games like Harden, which we know what a joke that is lol. Meanwhile, Harden had 36, 7.5 and 6 and led that team to 4th place in a stacked west.

This whole “oh but he elevates his game in the playoffs” thing is so dumb and the most casual take ever, completely lacks any understanding of how the game of basketball is played. TEAMS win rings, not any single players and Harden is raising floors, ceilings and skies as much as one man can.

[Quattro]

Kawhi. Even with the injuries.

[UglyBugBall]

Thats funny considering the actual best player in the NBA that very year, is the guy he’s compared to in this very thread lol.

Harden averaged 36, 7.5 and 6.6 on elite efficiency absolutely carrying a squad that was trying to fit the leftovers of Carmelo which caused them to start something like 10-14 record with no Chris Paul. After that Chris Paul AND Clint both missed another 2 months each in the middle of the year and Harden was out there with Tucker, House, Macklemore, Gordon and rookie Hartenstein averaging 40 pts triple doubles for what seemed like 2 months. Most of these guys aren’t even real NBA players anymore, and no, its not because of age, except maybe Tucker.

Harden took that rockets team to 53-29 and 4th place in a much stronger west conference and the only reason he wasn’t back to back mvp was cause the Bucks had a measly 7 more wins despite playing against much weaker opponents in the east most of the time - and in those days, ‘muh team record’ was still sadly one of the top arguments in mvp voting, something we finally saw come to an end recently with jokic winning as a 6th seed and such (which I have zero problem with, always should be like that, team record should matter but context should matter more).

Harden has BOTH a better peak and much better career than Kawhi. Unless you’re the type to overvalue team rings as individual accomplishments (hint: they’re not), then it should be pretty clear. And that’s not to take anything away from Kawhi, he was a beast too, but he’s also benefited from playing on much better structured teams than Harden, and THATS what matters for rings, not how great one individual guy is.

Harden is a great player to have in games that don't matter. He'll put up numbers in the regular season and fall off in the playoffs. He's like the anti Luka. Guys like Leonard, Lebron, Luka get better in the playoffs. Harden goes from a top 3 player to a Demar Derozan. Kawhii has had multiple playoff runs more impressive individually (even if we remove the rings argument, which we shouldn't) than Hardens best. Harden is like that kid in class that get straight A's throughout high-school but never amounts to anything after he graduates. Kawhii is the kid that drops out and then goes and builds Microsoft.

Put Kawhi on any of Hardens teams instead of the ones he got to play on and he would have exactly 0 championships as well and would’ve performed worst as well - tends to happen when the defense can just focus on you the entire time cause you’re on the floor with 4 guys like Gordon, Ariza, Tucker and Cappela. Literally only Gordon is an offensive threat in that group lol, the others you can just leave absolutely wide open without a care in the world. Kawhi would’ve done dick all with a group like that in the regular season and even less so in the playoffs. Add Chris Paul to that roster for one more half of basketball, and that roster wouldve beat the Durant Warriors, aka the best team of all time, and Harden would have one of the best rings of all time. Hell, just don’t Scott Foster game 7 and he still wins that without his second best player lol.

The next year in 2019, without Chris Paul for 2 and half months at the start of the season and for most of the middle of the season and without Clint for a month and a half, Kawhi doesn’t even make the playoffs with guys like Gordon, House, Tucker, Macklemore and rookie Hartenstein. That team probably finishes in like 10th or 11th in the West, and Im imagining a world where Leonard actually plays 78 of 82 games like Harden, which we know what a joke that is lol. Meanwhile, Harden had 36, 7.5 and 6 and led that team to 4th place in a stacked west.

This whole “oh but he elevates his game in the playoffs” thing is so dumb and the most casual take ever, completely lacks any understanding of how the game of basketball is played. TEAMS win rings, not any single players and Harden is raising floors, ceilings and skies as much as one man can.

Players win rings, not teams. Otherwise we wouldn't see superstars winning championships every season instead of teams like the 60 win Atlanta hawks, or the Kings or Magic. Let's just do this thought experiment - assume the Rockets make the playoffs at the same seed every year, but you replace Harden with Kawhii. The Rockets win a minimum 1 ring. They definitely get by the Warriors in 18 (even with the CP3 injury) because Kawhii wouldn't have bombed threes to throw away game 7. They'd also have a great shot in 19 which was Leonards peak.

[AleksandarN]

Harden is a great player to have in games that don't matter. He'll put up numbers in the regular season and fall off in the playoffs. He's like the anti Luka. Guys like Leonard, Lebron, Luka get better in the playoffs. Harden goes from a top 3 player to a Demar Derozan. Kawhii has had multiple playoff runs more impressive individually (even if we remove the rings argument, which we shouldn't) than Hardens best. Harden is like that kid in class that get straight A's throughout high-school but never amounts to anything after he graduates. Kawhii is the kid that drops out and then goes and builds Microsoft.

Put Kawhi on any of Hardens teams instead of the ones he got to play on and he would have exactly 0 championships as well and would’ve performed worst as well - tends to happen when the defense can just focus on you the entire time cause you’re on the floor with 4 guys like Gordon, Ariza, Tucker and Cappela. Literally only Gordon is an offensive threat in that group lol, the others you can just leave absolutely wide open without a care in the world. Kawhi would’ve done dick all with a group like that in the regular season and even less so in the playoffs. Add Chris Paul to that roster for one more half of basketball, and that roster wouldve beat the Durant Warriors, aka the best team of all time, and Harden would have one of the best rings of all time. Hell, just don’t Scott Foster game 7 and he still wins that without his second best player lol.

The next year in 2019, without Chris Paul for 2 and half months at the start of the season and for most of the middle of the season and without Clint for a month and a half, Kawhi doesn’t even make the playoffs with guys like Gordon, House, Tucker, Macklemore and rookie Hartenstein. That team probably finishes in like 10th or 11th in the West, and Im imagining a world where Leonard actually plays 78 of 82 games like Harden, which we know what a joke that is lol. Meanwhile, Harden had 36, 7.5 and 6 and led that team to 4th place in a stacked west.

This whole “oh but he elevates his game in the playoffs” thing is so dumb and the most casual take ever, completely lacks any understanding of how the game of basketball is played. TEAMS win rings, not any single players and Harden is raising floors, ceilings and skies as much as one man can.

Players win rings, not teams. Otherwise we wouldn't see superstars winning championships every season instead of teams like the 60 win Atlanta hawks, or the Kings or Magic. Let's just do this thought experiment - assume the Rockets make the playoffs at the same seed every year, but you replace Harden with Kawhii. The Rockets win a minimum 1 ring. They definitely get by the Warriors in 18 (even with the CP3 injury) because Kawhii wouldn't have bombed threes to throw away game 7. They'd also have a great shot in 19 which was Leonards peak.

Luka hasn’t won crap. He Extactly like Harden. Harden 2.0. Kawhi clears both. Luka shouldn’t be mentioned

[Haldi]

Harden is a great player to have in games that don't matter. He'll put up numbers in the regular season and fall off in the playoffs. He's like the anti Luka. Guys like Leonard, Lebron, Luka get better in the playoffs. Harden goes from a top 3 player to a Demar Derozan. Kawhii has had multiple playoff runs more impressive individually (even if we remove the rings argument, which we shouldn't) than Hardens best. Harden is like that kid in class that get straight A's throughout high-school but never amounts to anything after he graduates. Kawhii is the kid that drops out and then goes and builds Microsoft.

Put Kawhi on any of Hardens teams instead of the ones he got to play on and he would have exactly 0 championships as well and would’ve performed worst as well - tends to happen when the defense can just focus on you the entire time cause you’re on the floor with 4 guys like Gordon, Ariza, Tucker and Cappela. Literally only Gordon is an offensive threat in that group lol, the others you can just leave absolutely wide open without a care in the world. Kawhi would’ve done dick all with a group like that in the regular season and even less so in the playoffs. Add Chris Paul to that roster for one more half of basketball, and that roster wouldve beat the Durant Warriors, aka the best team of all time, and Harden would have one of the best rings of all time. Hell, just don’t Scott Foster game 7 and he still wins that without his second best player lol.

The next year in 2019, without Chris Paul for 2 and half months at the start of the season and for most of the middle of the season and without Clint for a month and a half, Kawhi doesn’t even make the playoffs with guys like Gordon, House, Tucker, Macklemore and rookie Hartenstein. That team probably finishes in like 10th or 11th in the West, and Im imagining a world where Leonard actually plays 78 of 82 games like Harden, which we know what a joke that is lol. Meanwhile, Harden had 36, 7.5 and 6 and led that team to 4th place in a stacked west.

This whole “oh but he elevates his game in the playoffs” thing is so dumb and the most casual take ever, completely lacks any understanding of how the game of basketball is played. TEAMS win rings, not any single players and Harden is raising floors, ceilings and skies as much as one man can.

Players win rings, not teams. Otherwise we wouldn't see superstars winning championships every season instead of teams like the 60 win Atlanta hawks, or the Kings or Magic. Let's just do this thought experiment - assume the Rockets make the playoffs at the same seed every year, but you replace Harden with Kawhii. The Rockets win a minimum 1 ring. They definitely get by the Warriors in 18 (even with the CP3 injury) because Kawhii wouldn't have bombed threes to throw away game 7. They'd also have a great shot in 19 which was Leonards peak.

No they would not win in 2018 lol. Kawhi is not the offensive engine Harden is. That team would be severely lacking in offence, especially once Paul gets injured. They wouldn’t have even been in the game enough to force Scott Foster to activate his shenanigans. Its cute that you think Kawhi with Gordon, Ariza, Tucker, Luc Mbah Moute and Clint is winning a championship lol, let alone against the 2018 GS team.

The reason it worked so well on the Raptors is because Lowry, Fred and Gasol (very underrated part of that team) handled 80% to 90% of the offensive playmaking. Kawhi just needed to get to his spots and execute. He can not in any type of universe you can imagine, carry those guys I listed up there past a (healthy) Durant Warriors team.

And no, no superstar has ever won a championship without a great supporting cast around them. The idea that Dirk, Hakeem and 2003 Duncan won all alone is made up nerd stuff that comes from people who very much lack the understanding and experience in the sport. All three of those teams had amazing rosters around them that were firing on all cylinders. Replace any of those teams rosters and all 6 of the 90s bulls chips teams, with the guys I listed up there, and not a SINGLE one wins a chip out of the 9 lol.

[UglyBugBall]

Put Kawhi on any of Hardens teams instead of the ones he got to play on and he would have exactly 0 championships as well and would’ve performed worst as well - tends to happen when the defense can just focus on you the entire time cause you’re on the floor with 4 guys like Gordon, Ariza, Tucker and Cappela. Literally only Gordon is an offensive threat in that group lol, the others you can just leave absolutely wide open without a care in the world. Kawhi would’ve done dick all with a group like that in the regular season and even less so in the playoffs. Add Chris Paul to that roster for one more half of basketball, and that roster wouldve beat the Durant Warriors, aka the best team of all time, and Harden would have one of the best rings of all time. Hell, just don’t Scott Foster game 7 and he still wins that without his second best player lol.

The next year in 2019, without Chris Paul for 2 and half months at the start of the season and for most of the middle of the season and without Clint for a month and a half, Kawhi doesn’t even make the playoffs with guys like Gordon, House, Tucker, Macklemore and rookie Hartenstein. That team probably finishes in like 10th or 11th in the West, and Im imagining a world where Leonard actually plays 78 of 82 games like Harden, which we know what a joke that is lol. Meanwhile, Harden had 36, 7.5 and 6 and led that team to 4th place in a stacked west.

This whole “oh but he elevates his game in the playoffs” thing is so dumb and the most casual take ever, completely lacks any understanding of how the game of basketball is played. TEAMS win rings, not any single players and Harden is raising floors, ceilings and skies as much as one man can.

Players win rings, not teams. Otherwise we wouldn't see superstars winning championships every season instead of teams like the 60 win Atlanta hawks, or the Kings or Magic. Let's just do this thought experiment - assume the Rockets make the playoffs at the same seed every year, but you replace Harden with Kawhii. The Rockets win a minimum 1 ring. They definitely get by the Warriors in 18 (even with the CP3 injury) because Kawhii wouldn't have bombed threes to throw away game 7. They'd also have a great shot in 19 which was Leonards peak.

Luka hasn’t won crap. He Extactly like Harden. Harden 2.0. Kawhi clears both. Luka shouldn’t be mentioned

Luka made the finals on an injured knee. Luka has one of the highest scoring averages in playoff history. Luka and Harden are a different breed.,

[JM00n69]

No one said he's better the question is who's higher all-time. Bill Walton was certainly a better player than Paul Pierce, but I don't think any legitimate all-time list has Walton over Pierce. You have to be on the court.

Walton was an MVP, Finals MVP, 2X All Star, 2X All NBA, 2X All Defensive, 1X Block Champ, 1X Rebound Champ, 1X Sixth Man of the Year. Yeah, I think you could make a pretty credible case for him over Pierce all time.

Kawhi is higher all time. Harden's accolades aren't that much better so that it negates Kawhi's clearly superior peak.

Walton played 123 games (plus 21 in the playoffs) at his prime level. Pierce was possibly at least all-star level from 1999-2013. This isn't a debate. It's like saying Derrick Rose had a better career than Gary Payton.

You've nailed it with the Drose/Glove example. Rose a better single season and would've 100% been better career wise than Payton if he didn't get injured (crazy to think how good Rose would've been if he didn't blow his knee out) but he did and while he made a very good comeback all things considered, you can't compare that to someone who's a first ballot HoFer that had a long career playing top level basketball while rarely missing games.

Kahwi showed everyone he was a top all time defensive wing for years and that he can also be the 1A on a Championship Team but injuries before and especially after make it a very short career. He's in the Grant Hill/Brandon Roy/DRose what if- could've been top AT tier.

[Reeko]

Walton was an MVP, Finals MVP, 2X All Star, 2X All NBA, 2X All Defensive, 1X Block Champ, 1X Rebound Champ, 1X Sixth Man of the Year. Yeah, I think you could make a pretty credible case for him over Pierce all time.

Kawhi is higher all time. Harden's accolades aren't that much better so that it negates Kawhi's clearly superior peak.

Walton played 123 games (plus 21 in the playoffs) at his prime level. Pierce was possibly at least all-star level from 1999-2013. This isn't a debate. It's like saying Derrick Rose had a better career than Gary Payton.

You've nailed it with the Drose/Glove example. Rose a better single season and would've 100% been better career wise than Payton if he didn't get injured (crazy to think how good Rose would've been if he didn't blow his knee out) but he did and while he made a very good comeback all things considered, you can't compare that to someone who's a first ballot HoFer that had a long career playing top level basketball while rarely missing games.

Kahwi showed everyone he was a top all time defensive wing for years and that he can also be the 1A on a Championship Team but injuries before and especially after make it a very short career. He's in the Grant Hill/Brandon Roy/DRose what if- could've been top AT tier.

No, Kawhi isn't in that tier. He won 2 championships, he has two Finals MVPs, he's a 2X DPOY, he's a 6X All Star, 7X All Defensive Team. He's just way more accomplished than any of the guys you mentioned.

[_NoMas]

Thats funny considering the actual best player in the NBA that very year, is the guy he’s compared to in this very thread lol.

Harden averaged 36, 7.5 and 6.6 on elite efficiency absolutely carrying a squad that was trying to fit the leftovers of Carmelo which caused them to start something like 10-14 record with no Chris Paul. After that Chris Paul AND Clint both missed another 2 months each in the middle of the year and Harden was out there with Tucker, House, Macklemore, Gordon and rookie Hartenstein averaging 40 pts triple doubles for what seemed like 2 months. Most of these guys aren’t even real NBA players anymore, and no, its not because of age, except maybe Tucker.

Harden took that rockets team to 53-29 and 4th place in a much stronger west conference and the only reason he wasn’t back to back mvp was cause the Bucks had a measly 7 more wins despite playing against much weaker opponents in the east most of the time - and in those days, ‘muh team record’ was still sadly one of the top arguments in mvp voting, something we finally saw come to an end recently with jokic winning as a 6th seed and such (which I have zero problem with, always should be like that, team record should matter but context should matter more).

Harden has BOTH a better peak and much better career than Kawhi. Unless you’re the type to overvalue team rings as individual accomplishments (hint: they’re not), then it should be pretty clear. And that’s not to take anything away from Kawhi, he was a beast too, but he’s also benefited from playing on much better structured teams than Harden, and THATS what matters for rings, not how great one individual guy is.

Harden is a great player to have in games that don't matter. He'll put up numbers in the regular season and fall off in the playoffs. He's like the anti Luka. Guys like Leonard, Lebron, Luka get better in the playoffs. Harden goes from a top 3 player to a Demar Derozan. Kawhii has had multiple playoff runs more impressive individually (even if we remove the rings argument, which we shouldn't) than Hardens best. Harden is like that kid in class that get straight A's throughout high-school but never amounts to anything after he graduates. Kawhii is the kid that drops out and then goes and builds Microsoft.

Put Kawhi on any of Hardens teams instead of the ones he got to play on and he would have exactly 0 championships as well and would’ve performed worst as well - tends to happen when the defense can just focus on you the entire time cause you’re on the floor with 4 guys like Gordon, Ariza, Tucker and Cappela. Literally only Gordon is an offensive threat in that group lol, the others you can just leave absolutely wide open without a care in the world. Kawhi would’ve done dick all with a group like that in the regular season and even less so in the playoffs. Add Chris Paul to that roster for one more half of basketball, and that roster wouldve beat the Durant Warriors, aka the best team of all time, and Harden would have one of the best rings of all time. Hell, just don’t Scott Foster game 7 and he still wins that without his second best player lol.

The next year in 2019, without Chris Paul for 2 and half months at the start of the season and for most of the middle of the season and without Clint for a month and a half, Kawhi doesn’t even make the playoffs with guys like Gordon, House, Tucker, Macklemore and rookie Hartenstein. That team probably finishes in like 10th or 11th in the West, and Im imagining a world where Leonard actually plays 78 of 82 games like Harden, which we know what a joke that is lol. Meanwhile, Harden had 36, 7.5 and 6 and led that team to 4th place in a stacked west.

This whole “oh but he elevates his game in the playoffs” thing is so dumb and the most casual take ever, completely lacks any understanding of how the game of basketball is played. TEAMS win rings, not any single players and Harden is raising floors, ceilings and skies as much as one man can.

Put harden on the raptors. Do they beat Philly or Milwaukee?

[RRR3]

Walton played 123 games (plus 21 in the playoffs) at his prime level. Pierce was possibly at least all-star level from 1999-2013. This isn't a debate. It's like saying Derrick Rose had a better career than Gary Payton.

You've nailed it with the Drose/Glove example. Rose a better single season and would've 100% been better career wise than Payton if he didn't get injured (crazy to think how good Rose would've been if he didn't blow his knee out) but he did and while he made a very good comeback all things considered, you can't compare that to someone who's a first ballot HoFer that had a long career playing top level basketball while rarely missing games.

Kahwi showed everyone he was a top all time defensive wing for years and that he can also be the 1A on a Championship Team but injuries before and especially after make it a very short career. He's in the Grant Hill/Brandon Roy/DRose what if- could've been top AT tier.

No, Kawhi isn't in that tier. He won 2 championships, he has two Finals MVPs, he's a 2X DPOY, he's a 6X All Star, 7X All Defensive Team. He's just way more accomplished than any of the guys you mentioned.

Rose might have a ring if LeBron got injured in the 2011 playoffs. Would he be better than Gary Payton then?