Who's higher all-time: Kawhi or Harden?

[The Servant]

Kawhi imo.

His all time peak is KDesque efficiency with top 20 league defense. Two FMVPS > one regular season imo.

[ryguy613]

Hard to say. I mean Kawhi certainly looks higher most of the time, and his laugh definitely makes him sound pretty high. Then again, youd probably have to be high to keep the beard Harden's had for as long as hes had it. Plus Harden is known to love the cheese burgers. Thats classic high food. Ill go Kawhi but its probably close

[Reeko]

Rose might have a ring if LeBron got injured in the 2011 playoffs. Would he be better than Gary Payton then?

I don't know why you think that comparing Rose to Payton is the same as comparing Kawhi to Harden.

Payton an all time great PG that never missed games due to injures and Rose, a potential best ever PG if he never got injured. Like KL, he came back and had a few years in him still but will never be considered to have had a better career than Payton.

It’s not even close to the same. But at this stage let’s just agree to disagree, cuz we’re not going to change each others minds.

[Quattro]

It boggles my mind how some of you can't figure out how circumstances do not dictate talent.

I will never understand this. If you replace all of Jordans teams with girls from a high school basketball team and he never wins a single championship, is he all of a sudden a worse basketball player and not a winner and therefore a loser. This is how much people on this forum know how to analyze players lol. I guarantee some will even come at me and be like, Jordan would at least win one lol. Some brain dead stuff around here

Take Kawhi off the 2019 Raptors and replace him with Harden. Now convince me that the Raptors somehow still win that series against the 76ers.

[Haldi]

It boggles my mind how some of you can't figure out how circumstances do not dictate talent.

I will never understand this. If you replace all of Jordans teams with girls from a high school basketball team and he never wins a single championship, is he all of a sudden a worse basketball player and not a winner and therefore a loser. This is how much people on this forum know how to analyze players lol. I guarantee some will even come at me and be like, Jordan would at least win one lol. Some brain dead stuff around here

Take Kawhi off the 2019 Raptors and replace him with Harden. Now convince me that the Raptors somehow still win that series against the 76ers.

That team was miles better than what Harden had to work with, so yea, with how close he was in 18 and how disfunctional the 19 team was, pretty sure he wins with a much better team in 2019. Already wrote this exact thing on the previous page but ill copy paste here for you:

“Prime Harden with Kyle, Powell, Siakim, Gasol, Fred and Ibaka… I’d say that Philly series doesn’t go anywhere near a game 7 buzzer prayer to win it. And the Bucks were a very strong regular season team that year but very much lacked playoff experience so although Leonard was very useful for the wall defense they set up against Giannis, Nurse can do the same damn thing with that roster as well. Team defense >>> than individual defense.

The 6 guys listed there are levels and levels above the 2018 or 2019 rockets team that Harden had to work with. Again, Mbah Moute I don’t think ever played NBA basketball again lol. Ariza got a fat 2 year contract the next year which the team realized was a huge mistake and traded him and after never played NBA basketball again. Gordon hasn’t exactly shined in Houston after Harden left and is he still even in the NBA?? Clint seems to be playing less and less minutes every year, cause he has Trae instead of Harden now. Tucker was a decent 20 ish minute role player on that championship Bucks run, but he was playing 40 minutes a game with Harden lol. As for Danual House and Macklemore… yea. And Hartenstein is a solid backup in the NBA but was a rookie at the time. Im never gonna say anything bad about Paul’s play obviously, dude was amazing but missed the most important game and a half in 2018 and most of 2019, and was not himself that playoff run.”

[JM00n69]

I don't know why you think that comparing Rose to Payton is the same as comparing Kawhi to Harden.

Payton an all time great PG that never missed games due to injures and Rose, a potential best ever PG if he never got injured. Like KL, he came back and had a few years in him still but will never be considered to have had a better career than Payton.

It’s not even close to the same. But at this stage let’s just agree to disagree, cuz we’re not going to change each others minds.

It's pretty spot on as you can get between them and Harden/Khawi except Harden not on the level of Payton but the point is the games played by one and the other who would've been better if injuries didn't happen.

[ryguy613]

I guess I just have a hard time following NBA fan logic. like, do rings count or not? Why is it that "6 rings! 6 rings!" is the first line of an MJ goat argument, but somehow isnt the definitive separator between Kawhi and Harden?

[ryguy613]

It boggles my mind how some of you can't figure out how circumstances do not dictate talent.

sure, but circumstances cut both ways. which circumstances are we talking about? Harden's inability to break through in the post season or Kawhi's inability to stay on the court consistently?

[JM00n69]

I guess I just have a hard time following NBA fan logic. like, do rings count or not? Why is it that "6 rings! 6 rings!" is the first line of an MJ goat argument, but somehow isnt the definitive separator between Kawhi and Harden?

Comparing the best of the best to ever play the game with all the counting stats we have, it's probably best to use all of them. (also MJ went 6-6 with two three peats, 10 time scoring leader, won MVP, DPOY, Scoring title, FMPV all in one season)

Hypothetically, would you have a young Harden or a young Kawhi as the next man in LAL? Both stay til end of their career but also miss as many games as they have.

[floppymoose]

I go Kawhi. Higher peak. More rings. I can see the argument for Harden based on more total impact due to availability. But if I had to pick one to spend his whole career in GS, I'd pick Kawhi.

[ryguy613]

I guess I just have a hard time following NBA fan logic. like, do rings count or not? Why is it that "6 rings! 6 rings!" is the first line of an MJ goat argument, but somehow isnt the definitive separator between Kawhi and Harden?

Comparing the best of the best to ever play the game with all the counting stats we have, it's probably best to use all of them. (also MJ went 6-6 with two three peats, 10 time scoring leader, won MVP, DPOY, Scoring title, FMPV all in one season)

Hypothetically, would you have a young Harden or a young Kawhi as the next man in LAL? Both stay til end of their career but also miss as many games as they have.

Kawhi. I really dont feel like I need to think about that one. They both come with their own set of problems, but one of their problems didnt stop him from being a 2 time FMVP, and best 2 way player in the game when healthy. I dont think either of them is a good leader, but we have tangible proof you can build a title team around Kawhi. Harden has been in the league longer and accomplished less... without injuries....

[SaveTheHens]

Is this really a debate? Isn't one guy a star at both offence & defence and the other guy a star at one position? Hasn't one guy won two fmvps with different surrounding casts while the other has only made the Finals once as the 3rd best guy on the team?

[JM00n69]

I guess I just have a hard time following NBA fan logic. like, do rings count or not? Why is it that "6 rings! 6 rings!" is the first line of an MJ goat argument, but somehow isnt the definitive separator between Kawhi and Harden?

Comparing the best of the best to ever play the game with all the counting stats we have, it's probably best to use all of them. (also MJ went 6-6 with two three peats, 10 time scoring leader, won MVP, DPOY, Scoring title, FMPV all in one season)

Hypothetically, would you have a young Harden or a young Kawhi as the next man in LAL? Both stay til end of their career but also miss as many games as they have.

Kawhi. I really dont feel like I need to think about that one. They both come with their own set of problems, but one of their problems didnt stop him from being a 2 time FMVP, and best 2 way player in the game when healthy. I dont think either of them is a good leader, but we have tangible proof you can build a title team around Kawhi. Harden has been in the league longer and accomplished less... without injuries....

Kawhi definitely is a better leader and a defender by miles but if both give you 13 years from 20y/o and one gives you 1000 games to the other's 700 are you telling me that doesn't move the needle? A total of 12 649 minutes over those games.

[JM00n69]

Comparing the best of the best to ever play the game with all the counting stats we have, it's probably best to use all of them. (also MJ went 6-6 with two three peats, 10 time scoring leader, won MVP, DPOY, Scoring title, FMPV all in one season)

Hypothetically, would you have a young Harden or a young Kawhi as the next man in LAL? Both stay til end of their career but also miss as many games as they have.

Kawhi. I really dont feel like I need to think about that one. They both come with their own set of problems, but one of their problems didnt stop him from being a 2 time FMVP, and best 2 way player in the game when healthy. I dont think either of them is a good leader, but we have tangible proof you can build a title team around Kawhi. Harden has been in the league longer and accomplished less... without injuries....

Kawhi definitely is a better leader and a defender by miles but if both give you 13 years from 20y/o and one gives you 1000 games to the other's 700 are you telling me that doesn't move the needle? A total of 12 649 minutes over those games. And that's the actual nr of minutes Harden played more during the RS than KL in their first 13 seasons

[ryguy613]

Comparing the best of the best to ever play the game with all the counting stats we have, it's probably best to use all of them. (also MJ went 6-6 with two three peats, 10 time scoring leader, won MVP, DPOY, Scoring title, FMPV all in one season)

Hypothetically, would you have a young Harden or a young Kawhi as the next man in LAL? Both stay til end of their career but also miss as many games as they have.

Kawhi. I really dont feel like I need to think about that one. They both come with their own set of problems, but one of their problems didnt stop him from being a 2 time FMVP, and best 2 way player in the game when healthy. I dont think either of them is a good leader, but we have tangible proof you can build a title team around Kawhi. Harden has been in the league longer and accomplished less... without injuries....

Kawhi definitely is a better leader and a defender by miles but if both give you 13 years from 20y/o and one gives you 1000 games to the other's 700 are you telling me that doesn't move the needle? A total of 12 649 minutes over those games.

i want the player who, at his best, gives my team the best chance of winning titles. those extra games dont mean much to me as a fan if im watching early playoff exits year after year. Give me two titles i can fondly look back on while my player is sitting out games later in his career over looking back at an era where my player was available nightly, and fun to watch, but didnt give my city a sinle parade.

[JM00n69]

Kawhi. I really dont feel like I need to think about that one. They both come with their own set of problems, but one of their problems didnt stop him from being a 2 time FMVP, and best 2 way player in the game when healthy. I dont think either of them is a good leader, but we have tangible proof you can build a title team around Kawhi. Harden has been in the league longer and accomplished less... without injuries....

Kawhi definitely is a better leader and a defender by miles but if both give you 13 years from 20y/o and one gives you 1000 games to the other's 700 are you telling me that doesn't move the needle? A total of 12 649 minutes over those games.

i want the player who, at his best, gives my team the best chance of winning titles. those extra games dont mean much to me as a fan if im watching early playoff exits year after year. Give me two titles i can fondly look back on while my player is sitting out games later in his career over looking back at an era where my player was available nightly, and fun to watch, but didnt give my city a sinle parade.

That's fair enough, I though maybe you didn't know how big the gap is for games missed between the two. Kahwhi was an AT wing defender for years and the best in the league for a few short seasons. His first ring was with the Duncan/Parker/Manu & Pop SAS team though so not that impressive but the '19 TOR one, he was the 1A and he definitely showed his greatness.

[ryguy613]

Kawhi definitely is a better leader and a defender by miles but if both give you 13 years from 20y/o and one gives you 1000 games to the other's 700 are you telling me that doesn't move the needle? A total of 12 649 minutes over those games.

i want the player who, at his best, gives my team the best chance of winning titles. those extra games dont mean much to me as a fan if im watching early playoff exits year after year. Give me two titles i can fondly look back on while my player is sitting out games later in his career over looking back at an era where my player was available nightly, and fun to watch, but didnt give my city a sinle parade.

That's fair enough, I though maybe you didn't know how big the gap is for games missed between the two. Kahwhi was an AT wing defender for years and the best in the league for a few short seasons. His first ring was with the Duncan/Parker/Manu & Pop SAS team though so not that impressive but the '19 TOR one, he was the 1A and he definitely showed his greatness.

Well, lets be fair about the SAS title. The OG trio were all past their prime. Duncan and Ginobli were at the very tail ends of their careers. Kawhi was pretty undoubtably the best player on that squad, even if the squad was very stacked. I think in both 14 and 19 the teams was absolutely stacked. The 19 team also had the distinct advantage of facing a Warriors team that was DOA. But hard to hold that against them. That Warriors team at full strength would beat any team they faced.

Either way, both Harden and Kawhi have played on very good rosters. Kawhi made the most of it twice. Harden has yet to, and its getting pretty late in his career to turn that around.

[RRR3]

Kawhi getting first option credit for the 14 ring is very weird. He was essentially Anunoby back then.

[tribulations]

For peak, it's Kawhi. For prime, it's Kawhi. For career, it's Harden. Kawhi has just missed too much time.

Come on man, because counting stats?

Even James Harden himself is taking Kawhi's career over his.

[pr0wler]

Kawhi would not have won if KD or Klay didn't get hurt

Now imagine if Hardens rockets didn't have cp3 get hurt, or KD/Klay were out when they played them in 2018. It would have been a different series.

Kawhis other ring came as a supporting player on the Spurs.

It would've definitely been a much tougher series, but it's not a given that we would have lost in 2019 even with KD and Klay fully healthy(Klay only missed 1 full game and actually played 32 mins in G6). Also may I remind you that the 2019 Rocket team actually lost to Golden State without KD for the entire series.

Likewise in 2018, obviously losing CP3 was massive but that doesn't guarantee a win either. Now I would concede that having Paul would have have probably prevented the team from missing 27 straight 3's but Harden also played like **** in the two closing games. He went a combined 22/53 FG (6/25 from deep) and had 15 assists to 14 turnovers as an combined -34 for both games.

No, they didn't. KD missed like one game vs the Rockets in 2019 (g6 I believe) but played the rest of the series.

And in the finals that one comeback game where Durant played 11 minutes was one of the games GSW won lol. Imagine if he and he and Klay were actually healthy for the the majority of the series.

Kawhi was great, but the circumstances aren't even remotely close to what the Rockets went up against.