Patrick Williams is having his worst year

[coldfish]

Good timing on this thread.

:pats self on back:

[Muzbar]

Good timing on this thread.

:pats self on back:

Pun intended?

[GoBlue72391]

I just went back and watched the highlights from his first NBA game. Most of this has been discussed recently, but I'll just re-iterate it: his jump shot was smoother and more fluid back then. It was one clean motion as opposed to what it is now. He was noticeably leaner and more athletic and his game was more versatile. He still had the catch and shoot 3, but he had a few pull-up mids, he had a few tough drives, and he had a nice lob assist.

If he hadn't developed the hitch in his shot, hadn't gained weight and lost his athleticism, and made incremental improvements over the years I think he would have had a reasonable chance of hitting what I viewed as his best-case scenario ceiling: something like 13 and 6 with efficient 3-point shooting on medium volume and solid defense. Even if he never fixed the mental issues. that player, while far from a star player, would be well worth his current contract.

The problem is that up until recently people thought that would be his FLOOR. They were thinking Kawhi/superstar or at the very least all-star when they should have been thinking, best case scenario, a solid 4th or 5th starter in the 3&D role. It took years for the star talk to fade when from my perspective it should have never been considered in the first place.

Even when he was a 9-10 points and 4-5 rebounds, 40% from 3 on low volume with solid D guy he was at least a decent 7th/8th man and was at basically the most likely outcome for him. Now we're at the worst-case scenario floor if he never gets back to his previous level, which was already very pedestrian.

[erlim]

Who is going to want Patrick Williams? He’s a China league level player.

[rosenthall]

One thing I haven't heard mentioned in the various Pat threads that might explain some of his slide:

Demar was babysitting him behind the scenes.

And now that he doesn't have his midwife beside him all the time he's having a hard time carrying himself through the NBA grind.

I doubt this is the sole or primary reason for his slide, but Pat never seemed like he had the mindset to carry himself through hard times. He certainly doesn't seem like he has an innate love of the game. This offseason he had a tough rehab ahead of him, and a new, fat contract that will set him up for life.

May have been too much to overcame for a complacent guy like him.

[rosenthall]

I just went back and watched the highlights from his first NBA game. Most of this has been discussed recently, but I'll just re-iterate it: his jump shot was smoother and more fluid back then. It was one clean motion as opposed to what it is now. He was noticeably leaner and more athletic and his game was more versatile. He still had the catch and shoot 3, but he had a few pull-up mids, he had a few tough drives, and he had a nice lob assist.

If he hadn't developed the hitch in his shot, hadn't gained weight and lost his athleticism, and made incremental improvements over the years I think he would have had a reasonable chance of hitting what I viewed as his best-case scenario ceiling: something like 13 and 6 with efficient 3-point shooting on medium volume and solid defense. Even if he never fixed the mental issues. that player, while far from a star player, would be well worth his current contract.

The problem is that up until recently people thought that would be his FLOOR. They were thinking Kawhi/superstar or at the very least all-star when they should have been thinking, best case scenario, a solid 4th or 5th starter in the 3&D role. It took years for the star talk to fade when from my perspective it should have never been considered in the first place.

Even when he was a 9-10 points and 4-5 rebounds, 40% from 3 on low volume with solid D guy he was at least a decent 7th/8th man and was at basically the most likely outcome for him. Now we're at the worst-case scenario floor if he never gets back to his previous level, which was already very pedestrian.

Not sure if this is the video you were looking at, but it's pretty eye-opening:

Watch on YouTube

Honestly Pat flashed more in that highlight than he has all of this season.

It's easy to look at that player and see him as a 13/6/2/1/1 3&D guy eventually.

It's just crazy how much has withered away from his game. There are a number of interesting flashes in that video, and zero of it has developed into a noticeable NBA skill 5 years later.

It's like his game has been stripped down to its absolute husk, with absolutely no additional peripheral skills making their way to the surface.

[Red8911]

Question is are the Bulls stuck with him right now if they try to trade him ? I’m sure a few bad teams would want to give him a chance , a change of scenery could help him but now with that contract I think it’s going to be tough to get something done.

Thats ofcourse if the Bulls are even over Pat. AK could very well give him another 10 years to see if he ever develops.

[2weekswithpay]

Question is are the Bulls stuck with him right now if they try to trade him ? I’m sure a few bad teams would want to give him a chance , a change of scenery could help him but now with that contract I think it’s going to be tough to get something done.

Thats ofcourse if the Bulls are even over Pat. AK could very well give him another 10 years to see if he ever develops.

If the Bulls are willing to attach an asset to dump him, they can trade him. Either that or take a similarly bad contract in return.

[Indomitable]

He is supposed to be a 2-way player, but I don't see our team locking opponents down when he's out there. Should show up on +/- by now, like it does with Caruso or Lonzo.

Defensive ratings this year:
Vuc/Smith: 114/113 (centers are always impactful)
Josh Giddey: 114
Buzelis: 114
Patrick: 117
Coby: 118
Zach: 118
Ayo: 118

I assume Billy has him start for defense, but all the Patrick-is-a-great-defender narrative seems more a theory or assumption, I'm having a hard time finding us actually stopping opponents when he plays.

Buzelis having the better D rating matches the eye test. Patrick really sucks off ball whereas Matas isn't bad at it. On ball, Patrick is stronger and its impact is noticeable but Matas has quicker feet.

Blocks aren't the end all be all of defense, but it does speak to hustle, movement and just plain hops
Patrick 2.1% block rate
Matas 5.6% (leads team)

Mateas at least stops the layups line.
https://clutchpoints.com/bulls-news-patrick-williams-gets-honest-continuous-struggles

[MrSparkle]

I just went back and watched the highlights from his first NBA game. Most of this has been discussed recently, but I'll just re-iterate it: his jump shot was smoother and more fluid back then. It was one clean motion as opposed to what it is now. He was noticeably leaner and more athletic and his game was more versatile. He still had the catch and shoot 3, but he had a few pull-up mids, he had a few tough drives, and he had a nice lob assist.

If he hadn't developed the hitch in his shot, hadn't gained weight and lost his athleticism, and made incremental improvements over the years I think he would have had a reasonable chance of hitting what I viewed as his best-case scenario ceiling: something like 13 and 6 with efficient 3-point shooting on medium volume and solid defense. Even if he never fixed the mental issues. that player, while far from a star player, would be well worth his current contract.

The problem is that up until recently people thought that would be his FLOOR. They were thinking Kawhi/superstar or at the very least all-star when they should have been thinking, best case scenario, a solid 4th or 5th starter in the 3&D role. It took years for the star talk to fade when from my perspective it should have never been considered in the first place.

Even when he was a 9-10 points and 4-5 rebounds, 40% from 3 on low volume with solid D guy he was at least a decent 7th/8th man and was at basically the most likely outcome for him. Now we're at the worst-case scenario floor if he never gets back to his previous level, which was already very pedestrian.

Not sure if this is the video you were looking at, but it's pretty eye-opening:

Watch on YouTube

Honestly Pat flashed more in that highlight than he has all of this season.

It's easy to look at that player and see him as a 13/6/2/1/1 3&D guy eventually.

It's just crazy how much has withered away from his game. There are a number of interesting flashes in that video, and zero of it has developed into a noticeable NBA skill 5 years later.

It's like his game has been stripped down to its absolute husk, with absolutely no additional peripheral skills making their way to the surface.

In general, his rookie season was very promising.

I can't figure it out either. Injuries happen to everybody, and it's not like he's tore an ACL or heel. And even then, most guys who did came back and still improved (cough: Zach). This has nothing to do with injuries. He looks completely zapped of any confidence and joy.

He looks way slower, bulkier, his hands turned into concrete and his shot mechanics look way worse.

The Bulls have been doing this with young guys as long as I can remember. Even Tyrus had an exciting as hell pre-season, opening game. Straight down-hill from there.

Khryapa. Niko (until the brief stint after returning from the broken jaw). Thabo. JJ. Lauri. Wendell. Coby - I mean, look, he had a decent MIP-candidate season, but still... for year 5 and coming into 6, he's regressed and just looks like he's struggling most the time. Then there's Vuc too, who immediately regressed.

Chicago clearly makes newcomers miserable!

[Guru]

I got a board warning for being too positive and optimistic about this team. This is where this fan base is right now. Something needs to change.

PWill had a fine December and November. He is just 23 and has a skillset. That translates well. The head is the easiest thing to change.

[panthermark]

I got a board warning for being too positive and optimistic about this team. This is where this fan base is right now. Something needs to change.

PWill had a fine December and November. He is just 23 and has a skillset. That translates well. The head is the easiest thing to change.

Not about the team......about the one specific player that is looking really bad. Objectively speaking is having his worst year.
The two months of exceptional play for him that you are touting were nothing outstanding for most starting PF's.

Also, the head/heart is the absolute hardest thing to change. If it were that easy, Eddy Curry would be on his way to the HOF. Very few people are able to change to base personality and "fire in their belly".

The best possible chance for Pat to have made an internal change (if possible) would required trading him (before being re-signed) and then his new team not opting to re-sign him. Maybe if he is starting at being out of the league (or bouncing around for near minimum), he might decide to get it together......maybe.

[League Circles]

Just curious, do people have a bigger problem with how he's playing offensively for a 5th option or more of a problem that he is (and has been) a 5th option for us (on his contract)?

If the latter, what should a 5th option make?

If the former, what should a 5th option produce?

[fleet]

Who is going to want Patrick Williams? He’s a China league level player.

Maybe he’s better than Yi Jianlian. Not sure.

[Indomitable]

The problem is that up until recently people thought that would be his FLOOR. They were thinking Kawhi/superstar.

Most of your post is solid but no one has believed that Kawhi talk since his 2nd year. He is 5 years into it

[Indomitable]

Just curious, do people have a bigger problem with how he's playing offensively for a 5th option or more of a problem that he is (and has been) a 5th option for us (on his contract)?

If the latter, what should a 5th option make?

If the former, what should a 5th option produce?

He is a net negative. Watching him play is like watching a three stooges skit every game.

Everytime Pat touches the ball you wonder how he will screw it up.

[Indomitable]

Who is going to want Patrick Williams? He’s a China league level player.

Maybe he’s better than Yi Jianlian. Not sure.

Yi was guilty of being old.

[Ice Man]

Just curious, do people have a bigger problem with how he's playing offensively for a 5th option

The main offensive problem isn't that he's a 5th option or that he's paid $18 million. It's that he hasn't been of NBA quality, for any level of option or at any salary. He averages 12.5 points and 3 assists per 36 minutes, with a terrible true shooting percentage. To name just one example, Jevon Carter is at 18/4 per 36 with much higher efficiency. And who the eff is Jevon Carter?

[League Circles]

Just curious, do people have a bigger problem with how he's playing offensively for a 5th option

The main offensive problem isn't that he's a 5th option or that he's paid $18 million. It's that he hasn't been of NBA quality, for any level of option or at any salary. He averages 12.5 points and 3 assists per 36 minutes, with a terrible true shooting percentage. To name just one example, Jevon Carter is at 18/4 per 36 with much higher efficiency. And who the eff is Jevon Carter?

Funny you should mention Carter, because as it turns out, 2 seasons ago he actually was a 5th option starter for a 1st place team....... And in that role he averaged 12.9 pts and 3.9 assists /36, but he wasn't the best defender in the unit like Patrick is.

My point is basically that the problem with Patrick this season is primarily his shooting efficiency. If people think it's volume, IMO they should rethink either what they expect out of a 5th option scorer and/or who they think our 5th option scorer should be instead of Patrick. The optins are basically Lonzo, Matas (both of whom aren't shooting any better than Patrick) and Ayo (who IIRC doesn't beat Patrick by much if at all in career shooting efficiency).

[Guru]

I got a board warning for being too positive and optimistic about this team. This is where this fan base is right now. Something needs to change.

PWill had a fine December and November. He is just 23 and has a skillset. That translates well. The head is the easiest thing to change.

Not about the team......about the one specific player that is looking really bad. Objectively speaking is having his worst year.
The two months of exceptional play for him that you are touting were nothing outstanding for most starting PF's.

Also, the head/heart is the absolute hardest thing to change. If it were that easy, Eddy Curry would be on his way to the HOF. Very few people are able to change to base personality and "fire in their belly".

The best possible chance for Pat to have made an internal change (if possible) would required trading him (before being re-signed) and then his new team not opting to re-sign him. Maybe if he is starting at being out of the league (or bouncing around for near minimum), he might decide to get it together......maybe.

How is the head/heart harder to change than athleticism? Quickness? Size? Length?

I didn't say it was exceptional play.....I said it was "FINE". ITs clearly not exceptional, but his January isn't his season and his season isn't his past or future career.