RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[ScrantonBulls]

MJ actually played 9 seasons and got 6 first team defense. Then rested for almost 2yrs and got 3 more. You can't count anything after 1993 and compare it to LeBron since he didn't go the MJ route of taking 2yrs off in his prime.

What I find funny is that they legitimately don't understand how much more effort goes into being a wing defender now a days. It was much easier back when zone was banned and you just defended man to man. Defending in the modern NBA requires far more intelligence, and there is much more switching and much more movement. It is much more taxing. It's not close quite frankly. MJ fans generally don't want to apply any context or deep thinking into the subject. Imagine thinking MJ with the mileage that LeBron had (even 5 years ago) would be able to consistently play HARD defense In the modern NBA. Just lol. When MJ was old the pace of the game was so damn slow. Made it easier to defend without getting gassed.

It's also hilarious how they legitimately believe he (or any other guards) deserved DPOY. It takes some strong mental gymnastics to think a guard in the 80s would have the impact of a Hakeem or Mark Eaton.

If it’s harder to defend, than it’s easier to offend and put up bigger stats.

You can’t have both so choose your poison.

But yeah, this is an excuse as even Kobe, KG and old Duncan had no problem defending until retirement.

Lmao at this logic. Imagine thinking the game hasn't changed since those players retired. Imagine thinking Kobe was still defending towards the end of his career. The more you post the more I question how much NBA basketball you've ever watched.

[michaelm]

Funny how guys put down LeBron’s defensive efforts for whatever time frame they want to use but MJ gets praise for not even playing. Hard to be bad at D when you decide not to play even though you're very capable of doing so. Wonder what MJ 's defense would have looked like if he actually played 19 consecutive seasons instead of choosing to take 19yrs to play 15 seasons?

Jordan played 8 seasons less and still has 9 1st team defense to Lebron having only 5.

I'm sorry but in terms of defensive longevity, ability and consistency, Jordan wipes the floor with Lebron.
Lebron has had about 33% of his career where he's been lazy or even completely sucked on that end.

MJ actually played 9 seasons and got 6 first team defense. Then rested for almost 2yrs and got 3 more. You can't count anything after 1993 and compare it to LeBron since he didn't go the MJ route of taking 2yrs off in his prime.

What nonsense and how convenient for you. I take it you agree with those (among whom I don’t number as it happens) who dismiss LeBron’s 4th title win in the bubble when the shortened season may have helped him at his then current age and allowed the injury prone AD to last a whole season.

You and Scranton Bulls have oddly similar prose styles as well as arguments btw.

[Jamaaliver]

[MrPainfulTruth]

Michael Jordan was unmatched:

Better scorer:
Highest career scoring averages in regular season (30.1 PPG) and playoffs (33.4 PPG)
Record 10 scoring titles
Most game-winning shots (9) despite playing 400+ fewer games than LeBron James.

Better defender:
9x All-Defensive First Team
Defensive Player of the Year
3x steals champ
2nd most career blocks by a guard and 3rd highest steals per game in NBA history

More athletic:
Highest recorded vertical jump: 48"
Longest hangtime: 0.92 seconds
Ran the 40-yard dash in 4.3 seconds

More clutch:
119-60 playoff record
6-0 in NBA Finals (with 6 Finals MVPs)
Never lost a title game/series in college, the NBA, or international competition

More efficient:
Retired with a 27.91 PER (3rd highest in NBA history)
The only guard in the Top 10 PER rankings

Better leader:
Never demanded trades, fired coaches, or formed super teams

Played 9 full seasons without missing a game, even at age 40

Bulls were the only team to win two three-peats, and they never lost three games in a row from 1990-1998

Longevity can’t beat unrivaled excellence.

There’s only one GOAT, and his name is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

I laughed at "better defender". If you have watched both play, LeBron is clearly the better defender of the two. It's not Jordan's fault - LeBron is simply much better than him. He can do everything MJ could, a long with defending bigger players and getting his infamous chase down blocks. Remember "The Block"? MJ doesn't get that block. Remember when the Heat has him guard and **** down prime Derrick Rose in the playoffs?

Simply put, he's the better defender. I don't see how it's debatable.

Watch on YouTube

[Homer38]

THe fact that LBJ did not make the all-defense team back in 2016 even if the cavs were 10th in defensive rating with several bad defender in his team was a complete joke.....At least he had one of the best defensive finals in NBA History in 2016 and he had such a huge load on offense too.It was super human what he did

2009 and 2013 was also a true DPOY caliber season for LeBron but in 2009,LBJ was second behind Howard who was in his peak years and in 2013,LeBron finish second behind Marc Gasol who was not even in the first team all-defense!...During the peak of LBJ,this awards was to the center vs for the guard in the 1980s,the big reason why Jordan has won once vs 0 for LeBron

And LeBron was a good defender for very long,since the moment Soloman HIll jump on his ankle back in 2021...Of course he had some down years back in 2018 when the cavs defense were very poor and LBJ had such a huge load on offense and in 2019 after his groin injury but it was a exception not the norm

And this is true this is much harder to defend now for a old player that it was in the late 1990s because of the high pace and pacing,this is not even close

[MrPainfulTruth]

I wonder when you say,

Simply put, he's the better defender. I don't see how it's debatable.

do you count 2020-2025 into this? Are you seriously saying that LeBron who hasnt been playing any defense for five years is a better defender thoughout his career than Michael Jordan? I mean i get you are his #1 fan but at some point reality has to come in, right? LeBron is literally standing around on D like a pole, hands on his hips, not providing help, not even attempting to stay in front of "his guy" (thats why he hangs around in fake help position all the time). Are you seriously claiming that is better defense than Michael Jordan? Please confirm i got this right. Look at this video...i mean the brainwash was at full power back then adn ESPN kept telling us about his defense even though this pattern was there in plain sight, and it got only worse since then...there a reason he is among the worst 10% of players in +/-

Watch on YouTube

[MrPainfulTruth]

THe fact that LBJ did not make the all-defense team back in 2016 even if the cavs were 10th in defensive rating with several bad defender in his team was a complete joke.....At least he had one of the best defensive finals in NBA History in 2016 and he had such a huge load on offense too.It was super human what he did

2009 and 2013 was also a true DPOY caliber season for LeBron but in 2009,LBJ was second behind Howard who was in his peak years and in 2013,LeBron finish second behind Marc Gasol who was not even in the first team all-defense!...During the peak of LBJ,this awards was to the center vs for the guard in the 1980s,the big reason why Jordan has won once vs 0 for LeBron

And LeBron was a good defender for very long,since the moment Soloman HIll jump on his ankle back in 2021...Of course he had some down years back in 2018 when the cavs defense were very poor and LBJ had such a huge load on offense and in 2019 after his groin injury but it was a exception not the norm

And this is true this is much harder to defend now for a old player that it was in the late 1990s because of the high pace and pacing,this is not even close

LeBron has stopped playing defense five years ago. Miraculously he can expend a lot of energy on offense, so your argument seems only to be true for defense. Other "older" players however manage to play both ends...be it CP3, Westbrook, DeAndre Jordan, Kevin Durant, you name it. How come?

[The High Cyde]

Deandre Jordan?!

[Homer38]

Westbrook

[Homer38]

LeBron was still a good defender until 2021 before Solomon Hill jump on his leg and none of those players have the offensive load of LeBron and are old like LeBron....LeBron is old and has big load on offense but if we compare LeBron at the same age that Jordan was in 1998,it was in 2020 and LeBron had a good years on defense but it was also the only year LeBron was the full time PG of his team....And the pace was faster,so harder for old players

[SlimShady83]

Deandre Jordan?!

Westbrook

I scrolled up to find out why these two names have been mentioned In the goat thread and LOL

[lessthanjake]

THe fact that LBJ did not make the all-defense team back in 2016 even if the cavs were 10th in defensive rating with several bad defender in his team was a complete joke.....At least he had one of the best defensive finals in NBA History in 2016 and he had such a huge load on offense too.It was super human what he did

2009 and 2013 was also a true DPOY caliber season for LeBron but in 2009,LBJ was second behind Howard who was in his peak years and in 2013,LeBron finish second behind Marc Gasol who was not even in the first team all-defense!...During the peak of LBJ,this awards was to the center vs for the guard in the 1980s,the big reason why Jordan has won once vs 0 for LeBron

And LeBron was a good defender for very long,since the moment Soloman HIll jump on his ankle back in 2021...Of course he had some down years back in 2018 when the cavs defense were very poor and LBJ had such a huge load on offense and in 2019 after his groin injury but it was a exception not the norm

And this is true this is much harder to defend now for a old player that it was in the late 1990s because of the high pace and pacing,this is not even close

In 2016, LeBron was ranked 41st in the NBA in DRAPM (using TheBasketballDatabase’s RAPM). So I definitely wouldn’t say the data backs up the idea that the Cavaliers being 10th in defensive rating indicates LeBron should’ve been all-defense. Of course, single-year RAPM is a bit noisy, but if we instead take three-year RAPM including the years surrounding 2016 (i.e. 2015 through 2017), then LeBron was 51st in DRAPM. And if we took five-year RAPM centered around 2016 (i.e. 2014 through 2018), LeBron was an awful 477th in DRAPM. There’s not actually a data-based case for LeBron deserving all-defense at that point.

It’s also worth noting that there’s not a data-based case for LeBron being a good defender in the first several years of his career, nor did he have a reputation as a good defender at the time. Overall, according to the TheBasketballDatabase’s RAPM, LeBron had three overlapping periods of five-year RAPM where he was 6th, 5th, and 7th in DRAPM. Those were 2007-2011, 2008-2012, and 2009-2013. Other than that, he was never in the top 25 in five-year DRAPM, though he was mostly found somewhere in the top 100. This is what people mean when they say LeBron didn’t have a lot of longevity as a great defender. He was a great defender for a handful of years in the middle of his career, and that was really it. In some of the later years, he was capable of turning it on at times, but it was not consistent.

[michaelm]

THe fact that LBJ did not make the all-defense team back in 2016 even if the cavs were 10th in defensive rating with several bad defender in his team was a complete joke.....At least he had one of the best defensive finals in NBA History in 2016 and he had such a huge load on offense too.It was super human what he did

2009 and 2013 was also a true DPOY caliber season for LeBron but in 2009,LBJ was second behind Howard who was in his peak years and in 2013,LeBron finish second behind Marc Gasol who was not even in the first team all-defense!...During the peak of LBJ,this awards was to the center vs for the guard in the 1980s,the big reason why Jordan has won once vs 0 for LeBron

And LeBron was a good defender for very long,since the moment Soloman HIll jump on his ankle back in 2021...Of course he had some down years back in 2018 when the cavs defense were very poor and LBJ had such a huge load on offense and in 2019 after his groin injury but it was a exception not the norm

And this is true this is much harder to defend now for a old player that it was in the late 1990s because of the high pace and pacing,this is not even close

In 2016, LeBron was ranked 41st in the NBA in DRAPM (using TheBasketballDatabase’s RAPM). So I definitely wouldn’t say the data backs up the idea that the Cavaliers being 10th in defensive rating indicates LeBron should’ve been all-defense. Of course, single-year RAPM is a bit noisy, but if we instead take three-year RAPM including the years surrounding 2016 (i.e. 2015 through 2017), then LeBron was 51st in DRAPM. And if we took five-year RAPM centered around 2016 (i.e. 2014 through 2018), LeBron was an awful 477th in DRAPM. There’s not actually a data-based case for LeBron deserving all-defense at that point.

It’s also worth noting that there’s not a data-based case for LeBron being a good defender in the first several years of his career, nor did he have a reputation as a good defender at the time. Overall, according to the TheBasketballDatabase’s RAPM, LeBron had three overlapping periods of five-year RAPM where he was 6th, 5th, and 7th in DRAPM. Those were 2007-2011, 2008-2012, and 2009-2013. Other than that, he was never in the top 25 in five-year DRAPM, though he was mostly found somewhere in the top 100. This is what people mean when they say LeBron didn’t have a lot of longevity as a great defender. He was a great defender for a handful of years in the middle of his career, and that was really it. In some of the later years, he was capable of turning it on at times, but it was not consistent.

I am fine with comparing peak LeBron with peak Jordan, and have no problem acknowledging his quality as a defender at his peak, and as you say he could turn it on at other stages in his career if he wanted/needed to do so.

Using longevity as an argument selectively to favor LeBron, and individual vs team achievements and statistics similarly selectively was my issue.

[canada_dry]

If we are being serious this is a 3 person race. Jordan, Lebron and Kareem. No one else belongs anywhere close.

This is pretty unanimous on most all time lists. I'd agree.

inconvenient truth...we're too good! -Phil Blackson

[AEnigma]

Amazing how any long-term RAPM sample identifies Lebron as one of the best non-big defenders ever, yet somehow we are supposed to believe that was all based on one little five-year stretch because that is what a couple of random online databases abstractly suggest.

[michaelm]

Amazing how any long-term RAPM sample identifies Lebron as one of the best non-big defenders ever, yet somehow we are supposed to believe that was all based on one little five-year stretch because that is what a couple of random online databases abstractly suggest.

Except no one was criticising LeBron’s defense de novo on recent posts on this thread, someone chose to question Jordan’s defense despite the 9 all defensive first team nods and His DPOY award. If people choose to do this some clap back should hardly be unexpected.

[lessthanjake]

Amazing how any long-term RAPM sample identifies Lebron as one of the best non-big defenders ever, yet somehow we are supposed to believe that was all based on one little five-year stretch because that is what a couple of random online databases abstractly suggest.

Not sure why you simultaneously use a RAPM measure as evidence, while RAPM you don’t like is derisively referred to as the “abstract[] suggest[ions]” of a “random online database[].” In any event, the DRAPM data that you refer to that way actually tells us something that is very consistent with LeBron’s all-defense selections. In other words, contemporaneous perception and five-year DRAPM basically both tell us the same thing about the history of LeBron’s defense. Which should give us more confidence that it’s right.

[AEnigma]

Amazing how any long-term RAPM sample identifies Lebron as one of the best non-big defenders ever, yet somehow we are supposed to believe that was all based on one little five-year stretch because that is what a couple of random online databases abstractly suggest.

Not sure why you simultaneously use a RAPM measure as evidence, while RAPM you don’t like is derisively referred to as the “abstract[] suggest[ions]” of a “random online database[].”

Because as you are fully aware, different sources give different outputs over small samples.

In any event, the DRAPM data that you refer to that way actually tells us something that is very consistent with LeBron’s all-defense selections. In other words, contemporaneous perception and five-year DRAPM basically both tell us the same thing about the history of LeBron’s defense. Which should give us more confidence that it’s right.

Or we could use a different collection of RAPM data which marks him as a consistently elite non-big and which in turn reflects the reality of his career long measures, but nope, much easier to spam what you found seems least favourable.

[MrPainfulTruth]

Amazing how any long-term RAPM sample identifies Lebron as one of the best non-big defenders ever, yet somehow we are supposed to believe that was all based on one little five-year stretch because that is what a couple of random online databases abstractly suggest.

Did you watch any games within the last five years or are you clinging to numbers in "random online databases" that happen to suit your case?

Are you saying he is even an average defender those last few years that are supposedly so meaningful because they cement his longevity GOAT argument (which is the only one he has)?

[AEnigma]

Amazing how any long-term RAPM sample identifies Lebron as one of the best non-big defenders ever, yet somehow we are supposed to believe that was all based on one little five-year stretch because that is what a couple of random online databases abstractly suggest.

Did you watch any games within the last five years or are you clinging to numbers in "random online databases" that happen to suit your case?

Are you saying he is even an average defender those last few years that are supposedly so meaningful because they cement his longevity GOAT argument (which is the only one he has)?

One of the most entertaining aspects of Jordan worship is how it seems to go hand in hand with functional illiteracy.

Strike: Baiting/Trolling