Who's higher all-time: Kawhi or Harden?

[KG Leonard]

Kawhi won a championship as the best player.

Harden had a more healthy career, but Kawhi was the better overall player.

Yeah the question isn't who is the more healthy, had more RS games.

If it wasn't about Peak but long good careers, Karl Malone would be top 3-4 in GOAT discussion for his RS stats but he isn't....

[JustBuzzin]

Kawhi won a championship as the best player.

Harden had a more healthy career, but Kawhi was the better overall player.

Yeah the question isn't who is the more healthy, had more RS games.

If it wasn't about Peak but long good careers, Karl Malone would be top 3-4 in GOAT discussion for his RS stats but he isn't....

Better question KG or Kawhi?

[NZB2323]

I have Kawhi ranked higher but I find it silly that ESPN’s top 75 list had Kawhi 33rd and Harden 50th.

Kawhi has an argument over Harden. Dominique Wilkins and Jerry Lucas don’t.

I think both have an argument for top 30 all time.

[tribulations]

Harden, way more career value, MVP, FIBA World Cup gold medal, Olympic gold medal, Kawhi two NBA titles and one Finals MVP doesn't put him over Harden.

Which FMVP didn't happen - Spurs or Raptors?

[KG Leonard]

Kawhi won a championship as the best player.

Harden had a more healthy career, but Kawhi was the better overall player.

Yeah the question isn't who is the more healthy, had more RS games.

If it wasn't about Peak but long good careers, Karl Malone would be top 3-4 in GOAT discussion for his RS stats but he isn't....

Better question KG or Kawhi?

Hehe tough question
I love both for the same reason, smart and hungry all-time defenders. I started watching NBA around 2006-2007 because of KG and his unselfish, gritty style so he is emotionally more important to me. The perfect player would be KG skilled offensive game with prime Kawhi playoffs scoring, midrange assassin.

[Castle Black]

Kawhi won a championship as the best player.

Harden had a more healthy career, but Kawhi wash the better overall player.

My problem with this logic is that:

A.) Kawhi doesn’t win that ring if KD and Klay don’t go down in that series. It was pretty evident GS was the better team when they were healthy.

B.) Harden almost certainly rings as the best player in 2018 (his MVP season) if CP3 doesn’t miss Game 7 of the WCF with that hamstring injury. Rockets were hands down the best team in the league all season by a wide margin based on record.

Some players are just luckier than others. Kawhi’s been very fortunate for his 2 championship runs while Harden’s been rather unlucky for his. That’s why I don’t think that logic applies in this specific instance, because of the specific circumstances surrounding these two players. My two cents anyways.

[SmashMouthRod]

Kawhi was a better all around player when you factor in his elite defense. Harden was a better offensive player. In fact Harden is an all time great offensive player. Harden was literally an offensive system in Houston. I believe both players are hall of famers. If youre judging peaks its Kawhi. If your judging overall impact or consistency its Harden. Houstons Harden could probably take a bottom feeder early lottery level team to the playoffs. Kawhi needs good players around him; but can shut down his man and close games in clutch high leverage moments. A tough comparison because they both bring different value to a roster.

[KG Leonard]

Kawhi won a championship as the best player.

Harden had a more healthy career, but Kawhi wash the better overall player.

My problem with this logic is that:

A.) Kawhi doesn’t win that ring if KD and Klay don’t go down in that series. It was pretty evident GS was the better team when they were healthy.

B.) Harden almost certainly rings as the best player in 2018 (his MVP season) if CP3 doesn’t miss Game 7 of the WCF with that hamstring injury. Rockets were hands down the best in the league all season by a wide margin based on record.

Some players are just luckier than others. Kawhi’s been very fortunate for his 2 championship runs while Harden’s been rather unlucky for his. That’s why I don’t think that logic applies in this specific instance, because of the specific circumstances surrounding these two players. My two cents anyways.

You can't be unlucky for 16 seasons, Harden isn't best player on championship team level and that is proven in two decades.

Making alternate reality about KD magically help beating a team that was dominating warriors is like saying Cavs didn't win 2016 finals because Warriors won 73 regular season games. It doesn't work that way at all. Injuries happened to Bird, Magic in their peak playoffs years and LeBron lost two all-stars in 2015 finals. Does that mean you can take away Pistons late 1980s NBA titles and Warriors shouldn't be 2015 champions because Lebron team had injuries?

Kawhi had the best scoring, best player playoffs run since MJ and matched only by peak Lebron 2018 playoffs. Those are historical facts. You can't take away his FMVP and give it some dude in Houston. Injuries is the only reason Kawhi can be compared to someone like Harden.

[KG Leonard]

Kawhi was a better all around player when you factor in his elite defense. Harden was a better offensive player. In fact Harden is an all time great offensive player. Harden was literally an offensive system in Houston. I believe both players are hall of famers. If youre judging peaks its Kawhi. If your judging overall impact or consistency its Harden. Houstons Harden could probably take a bottom feeder early lottery level team to the playoffs. Kawhi needs good players around him; but can shut down his man and close games in clutch high leverage moments. A tough comparison because they both bring different value to a roster.

Kawhi didn't take Spurs to 60 plus wins, playoffs 2014-2017? He carried 40 year old TD and Manu. You make it sound like Spurs was Charlotte when Kawhi was MVP runner up etc. Harden just didn't share the ball with two other Finals MVP. Although he did play with Russ(MVP), CP3 in their prime. He still couldn't go to finals, proto Luka with crazy usage rate never even reached the finals like Dallas did last season. RS scoring is not everything....

[SmashMouthRod]

Kawhi was a better all around player when you factor in his elite defense. Harden was a better offensive player. In fact Harden is an all time great offensive player. Harden was literally an offensive system in Houston. I believe both players are hall of famers. If youre judging peaks its Kawhi. If your judging overall impact or consistency its Harden. Houstons Harden could probably take a bottom feeder early lottery level team to the playoffs. Kawhi needs good players around him; but can shut down his man and close games in clutch high leverage moments. A tough comparison because they both bring different value to a roster.

Kawhi didn't take Spurs to 60 plus wins, playoffs 2014-2017? He carried 40 year old TD and Manu. You make it sound like Spurs was Charlotte when Kawhi was MVP runner up etc. Harden just didn't share the ball with two other Finals MVP. Although he did play with Russ(MVP), CP3 in their prime. He still couldn't go to finals, proto Luka with crazy usage rate never even reached the finals like Dallas did last season. RS scoring is not everything....

Did Kawhi? Wasnt that spurs core consistently a playoff team/contender before Kawhi rose to superstardom? Didnt people consider Pop to be an all-time coach at the time? Didnt the spurs consistently roster/acquire former all - star player vets trying to get an easy ring before retirement (McGrady, Finley, Aldridge, D. West, DIaw etc..)? Tim Duncan is still considered widely as a top 5-10 player ever. Not taking anything away from Kawhi but lets not act like he drug mediocre rosters to chips. His Toronto team rostered Marc Gasol, Ibaka, Siakam, Lowry, VanVleet, Norm Powell, Anunoby, Danny Green. There were times Harden was scoring 50 plus points and still producing 10+ assists to get his team wins. Dude was literally accounting for more than half of the teams scoring. He only played with CP3 or Westbrook 1 season each in Houston. Most of the time he had guys like Beverly, Capela/Dwight, Ariza and Terrence Jones around him. Lets be real here; Kawhi probably doesnt drag that roster to the playoffs.

[KG Leonard]

Kawhi was a better all around player when you factor in his elite defense. Harden was a better offensive player. In fact Harden is an all time great offensive player. Harden was literally an offensive system in Houston. I believe both players are hall of famers. If youre judging peaks its Kawhi. If your judging overall impact or consistency its Harden. Houstons Harden could probably take a bottom feeder early lottery level team to the playoffs. Kawhi needs good players around him; but can shut down his man and close games in clutch high leverage moments. A tough comparison because they both bring different value to a roster.

Kawhi didn't take Spurs to 60 plus wins, playoffs 2014-2017? He carried 40 year old TD and Manu. You make it sound like Spurs was Charlotte when Kawhi was MVP runner up etc. Harden just didn't share the ball with two other Finals MVP. Although he did play with Russ(MVP), CP3 in their prime. He still couldn't go to finals, proto Luka with crazy usage rate never even reached the finals like Dallas did last season. RS scoring is not everything....

Did Kawhi? Wasnt that spurs core consistently a playoff team/contender before Kawhi rose to superstardom? Didnt people consider Pop to be an all-time coach at the time? Didnt the spurs consistently roster/acquire former all - star player vets trying to get an easy ring before retirement (McGrady, Finley, Aldridge, D. West, DIaw etc..)? Tim Duncan is still considered widely as a top 5-10 player ever. Not taking anything away from Kawhi but lets not act like he drug mediocre rosters to chips. His Toronto team rostered Marc Gasol, Ibaka, Siakam, Lowry, VanVleet, Norm Powell, Anunoby, Danny Green. There were times Harden was scoring 50 plus points and still producing 10+ assists to get his team wins. Dude was literally accounting for more than half of the teams scoring. He only played with CP3 or Westbrook 1 season each in Houston. Most of the time he had guys like Beverly, Capela/Dwight, Ariza and Terrence Jones around him. Lets be real here; Kawhi probably doesnt drag that roster to the playoffs.

Tim Duncan was 38 years old, he was gone by 2016 like he said himself he wasn't TD then, the guy who he is top 10 all-time. The 2014 Spurs didn't last for that reason, Manu was 40 by Kawhi runner MVP years. Yeah it was only him, "the superstar" Aldridge and roleplayers. McGrady?? We are not talking about 2005 T Mac but some old guy that couldn't bench rotation player 12 on Spurs.
Marc Gasol left the NBA after 2019 team, he wasn't all NBA, DPOY Gasol of 2013, still good defensive big roleplayer then. Second best player in 2019 run was clearly Lowry, Siakam wasn't all NBA then. Roleplayers in Houston and Spurs was similar level. Bellinelli isn't better for than Ariza, Beverley and co. Lowry would barely make top 10 teammates list Harden has had.
Are we forgetting he didn't help KD, Kyrie, CP3, Russ, Maxey and Embiid?The years he didn't help other great players outside his system in Houston count too.

[Jamaaliver]

James Harden is easily one of the Top-10 Greatest Offensive Players in NBA History.

Read on Twitter

[bledredwine]

Kawhi, easy.

He’s better both ways, and one by a long shot.

[KG Leonard]

James Harden is easily one of the Top-10 Greatest Offensive Players in NBA History.

Read on Twitter

Thats a given, he is an offensive machine and no one is saying he isn't?
Just compared to other all-time great superstars he ranks lower in the list because his history is made mostly in regular season. Others are acclaimed for playoffs dominance.

[NZB2323]

Kawhi won a championship as the best player.

Harden had a more healthy career, but Kawhi was the better overall player.

Yeah the question isn't who is the more healthy, had more RS games.

If it wasn't about Peak but long good careers, Karl Malone would be top 3-4 in GOAT discussion for his RS stats but he isn't....

Better question KG or Kawhi?

From 1996-2008 KG played in between 71-82 games every season except for the lockout shortened season in 1999.

For the first 13 years of Kawhi’s career, he played in between 0-74 games. He’s only had 4 seasons in his career where he played in 65 or more games. He’s missed playoff games because of injury in 2017, 2018, 2021, 2023, and 2024. Unless I’m mistaken, 2009 was the only year KG missed a playoff game.

You could also easily argue that Kawhi had better teammates throughout his career. Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Lowry, Siakam, Gasol, Paul George…compare that to KG’s Minnesota teammates.

[NZB2323]

James Harden is easily one of the Top-10 Greatest Offensive Players in NBA History.

Read on Twitter

In the regular season, just like Karl Malone. Some playoff shooting logs for Harden:

0-3
0-2
4-10
1-3
1-5
2-7
4-11
2-9
2-7
3-10
4-11
4-13
2-11
4-13
2-10
2-10
4-12
7-22
8-28
6-19
5-15
4-11
5-17
5-20
7-20
3-16
2-11
7-19
7-19
4-13
5-16
8-25
3-17
2-11
2-18
8-21
8-22
7-22
9-24
5-21
3-20
10-26
9-28
5-16
4-15
2-11
5-13
1-10
5-17
6-17
3-9
5-17
4-11
5-14
4-11
8-21
3-13
4-18
2-14
3-14
4-16
3-11
2-12
5-16

If you like TS% better, this is his TS% in some games his team got eliminated:

33%
48.4%
41.9%
36.7%
49.2%
51.4%
37.9%
41.9%

With all that being said, I think it’s ridiculous that ESPN had him ranked 50th. I have him as top 30, just like Karl Malone.

[bovice]

how many playoff series did harden lose than he should have won and how does that compare to other stars in the 2010s

[NZB2323]

how many playoff series did harden lose than he should have won and how does that compare to other stars in the 2010s

2012 against the Heat.
2014 against the Trailblazers.
2021 against the Bucks.
2022 against the Heat.

2017 he wasn’t supposed to win, but got outplayed by Kawhi.

That’s kind of a lot. That’s more than Lebron, Durant, Curry, or Kawhi, who are players from the 2010s ranked ahead of Harden.

[Homer38]

2017 was awful.The end of game 5 and the entire game 6,it can't happen.And it was not the only time in the James Harden career he don't show up in big moment....It happened way too often

[phanman]

Kawhi won a championship as the best player.

Harden had a more healthy career, but Kawhi wash the better overall player.

My problem with this logic is that:

A.) Kawhi doesn’t win that ring if KD and Klay don’t go down in that series. It was pretty evident GS was the better team when they were healthy.

B.) Harden almost certainly rings as the best player in 2018 (his MVP season) if CP3 doesn’t miss Game 7 of the WCF with that hamstring injury. Rockets were hands down the best team in the league all season by a wide margin based on record.

Some players are just luckier than others. Kawhi’s been very fortunate for his 2 championship runs while Harden’s been rather unlucky for his. That’s why I don’t think that logic applies in this specific instance, because of the specific circumstances surrounding these two players. My two cents anyways.

You can make up alternate realities to make any player seem better/fortunate:
- What if we had OG for the playoffs? - We weren't healthy either.
- It's not a given that the 2018 Rockets beat the 2018 Cavs.

Something else to ponder:
- What if Zaza doesn't step under Kawhi in 2017? As you know, they had 23pt lead in G1 on the road before everything went sour. Kawhi was looking like the terminator that year. Also looking back, Harden got eliminated to a Kawhi-less Spurs team in G6 that year with him finishing the game on a whopping 10pts, 3reb, 7ast, 6to, 6fouls in 36mins on 2/11 fg (9 3pA)

- What if Harden does **** the bed in 2012? - They probably win over Miami with him playing at his usual standards.