Cooper Flagg

[Ice Man]

Cooper gives me Jimmy Butler vibes. Not in attitude, not at all. But rather his game -

1) Mostly plays off the ball, gives his teammates a lot of breathing space to do their own thing. He ain't Melo.
2) Tends to score inside, not on post-ups, but on bully ball drives
3) Gets fouled a lot.
4) Unselfish and effective distributor, with simple passes. Nothing flashy.
5) Good rebounder.
6) Excellent defender.
7) Takes over a game when his team needs the points, otherwise happy enough to play within the system.

He's bigger than Jimmy, of course, but a similar playing style. Only it took Butler until his late 20s to reach that level of game understanding, and Coop has it just after his 18th birthday.

He is obviously a Can't Miss prospect. Whether he becomes an all-time NBA great or just a really good player, that I do not know.

[The Master]

Updated stats:

- 19.2 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 4.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 1.2 bpg, 2.6 topg
- 48.8% FG, 34.8% 3PT, 54.0% 2PT, 53.5% eFG, 80.9% FT, 59.2% TS
- 15.8 BPM

Inching closer to Anthony Davis' 17.24 BPM. Worth mentioning that AD was 19.27 years old when drafted; Cooper will be 18.5, so what he's doing for his age is remarkable. He'll be like one week older than LeBron when he was drafted.

Yeah, he will be younger than several prominent players who went to NBA straight from high school like Dwight, KG, Chandler, and so on - and everyone found it normal that almost all players from HS needed more time to grow in the NBA.



Once again - it doesn't mean Flagg will be a better offensive player than these guys, but the expectation that wing players on collegiate level have already NBA-ready skillset offensively in terms of playmaking and 3-level scoring is just unrealistic. Maybe ball-dominant point guards like Young had already specified NBA role and skillset, but again - Trae was over a year older than Flagg, so was Cade or Banchero. It's actually insane how productive Flagg is considering he could've been easily 2026 draftee.

[nate33]

He still reminds me more of Banchero than anyone else. He has a similar build, he's a willing passer and a good slasher, but only an okay outside shot. Only Flagg is a little better as a playmaker than Banchero and a significantly better defender. And also younger.

[HotRocks34]

I'm a lot higher on him now than I was a month ago.

His offense is looking better and it seems like he's starting to develop a real chip on his shoulder, in a good way.

I've played with guys who had good tools but they didn't have the mindset to go out and dominate. Flagg looks like he's starting to bring that mentality to his college game.

[zero rings]

His scoring ability is much, much better than I expected. That was my only real concern with him about a month ago, and now I’m wondering if he isn’t the best scorer in the draft. He’s been showing the complete arsenal lately.

I still think he’ll struggle with his efficiency as an 18 year old rookie, but once this guy adds 15 pounds of muscle to that big frame of his, watch out.

[RookieStar]

He still reminds me more of Banchero than anyone else. He has a similar build, he's a willing passer and a good slasher, but only an okay outside shot. Only Flagg is a little better as a playmaker than Banchero and a significantly better defender. And also younger.

I kinda agree with you in everything excepy that similar build.

I mean i admit i dunno if Flagg will buff up when he is in the league but Duke career wise, PB was already a freight train monster. 6'10 and probably 240lbs and it took similar giants like Bacot to stop him.

Flagg looks to be the scrawny kid. An uber athletic.. jalen johnson(????)

*talking about Duke career*

[sikma42]

Im just becoming more and more impressed with him as an athlete. Hes in a different class than Bailey athletically and imo is better than Dybabtsa athletically as well.

He also has really good spatial awareness and instincts. He looks the part of a potential franchise guy. Has to fix some things mechanically but he’s gonna be a favorite, I miss that mentality he brings (he really tries to dunk on people).


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[HotRocks34]

Im just becoming more and more impressed with him as an athlete.

One of his dunks yesterday against Boston College I thought he had no shot to dunk it from the spot and angle he was coming from.

He's gifted.

[JustBuzzin]

Im just becoming more and more impressed with him as an athlete.

One of his dunks yesterday against Boston College I thought he had no shot to dunk it from the spot and angle he was coming from.

He's gifted.

Yeah, but is he the Chosen 1?

[HotRocks34]

Im just becoming more and more impressed with him as an athlete.

One of his dunks yesterday against Boston College I thought he had no shot to dunk it from the spot and angle he was coming from.

He's gifted.

Yeah, but is he the Chosen 1?

Lol. I don't think so. But he's talented.

[FrodoBaggins]

Cooper absolutely isn't scrawny. He's a guy with a big frame who hasn't filled it out yet. There's a particular look for that and he's got it. It's a bony, wide-from-the-front-and-back-but-skinny-from-the-side look. Anthony Davis had it too.

His bi-acromial, bi-trochanteric, and bi-iliac widths are noticeable and stand out despite his current body composition. His sitting height, head circumference, wrist circumference, ankle circumference, and epicondylar breadth of the femur and humerus all look good.

[Wayne Wu]

the term generational is overused because it seems every other year someone is called that and then also more than 5 players in the NBA are called that when it should be something reserved for a player who comes around once every 20-25 years.

And then next year the kid from Utah is also going to be 'generational'. Maybe everyone should just call them great prospects.

In general usage, the word "generation" means about 20 years. Few players are actually productive for 20 years, though, so in basketball terms in makes sense to think of a basketball generation as 10-15 years. Still, you're right that the term is overused. With that definition, if you aren't clearly the best player for ~10 year era, you aren't a generational talent. That gives us... Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, LeBron. I can't think of any others based on that definition.

Magic/Larry cancel each other out. As do Duncan/Shaq/Kobe. You could even argue that Russell/Wilt cancel each other out, too.

Another, less restrictive, use of the term 'generational' could mean best at a given position for the generation. This is a much looser usage of the term, and it would allow you to use the term for Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Durant, Curry, and a host of others. It would open up the term for up to 5 players at a time in the NBA. Probably less than that, though, because often, for a given position there isn't just one player who dominates that position for ~10 years. For example, Duncan/Shaq/Kobe were generational talents based on this usage, but what point guard was a "generational" talent from that era. Certainly some great players (Kidd/Nash), but none that stand out from their peers enough for the label.

Generational is indeed a arbitrary term, my personal definition for it also includes style of play, not only ability of basketball.

I see generation as about 20 years.

And even if Magic and Curry were drafted on the same year, I considered both of them generational.

They are both PG, but you only see each of them every 20 years or maybe even 50 years. Doesn't matter who you think is better. They are both generational to me even if they are same age.

So, even if I think Kobe is better than Curry, Curry is more of a generational talent than Kobe is to me. Because we already saw a better version of Kobe just 15 years older than him.

That's how I view the term Generational.

[benson13]

I see generational players as guys whose teams are always in contention when in their primes. LeBron, Shaq, and Duncan come to mind in recent history. They needed help to win a title, but they would have their team in the mix every season regardless of who they're playing with.

I see Flagg as a multiple time all-star. With the right point guard he would remind me a lot of Stoudemire and/or Marion in Phoenix with Nash, but he's got better skills in isolation that both of them.

[MMyhre]

Cooper absolutely isn't scrawny. He's a guy with a big frame who hasn't filled it out yet. There's a particular look for that and he's got it. It's a bony, wide-from-the-front-and-back-but-skinny-from-the-side look. Anthony Davis had it too.

His bi-acromial, bi-trochanteric, and bi-iliac widths are noticeable and stand out despite his current body composition. His sitting height, head circumference, wrist circumference, ankle circumference, and epicondylar breadth of the femur and humerus all look good.

TLDR - man has wide shoulders and proportionally long arms and legs which take more time to fill out, he still looks strong already.

[johannking]

I think another thing that separates Flagg is his incredible stamina that allows him to be aggressive on both ends for entire games. There were so many instances where I just don't expect Flagg to cut to the rim that hard after say bringing the ball up after a strong rebound, or after a busting out a bunch of dribbles.

[12footrim]

Spoiler:

Flagg has only been 18 for a few weeks and hes currently #2 in defensive rating (Flagg = 81.3 / AD = 80.7), #1 in defensive win shares, 9th in win shares, #3 in box plus minus (Flagg = +14.3 / AD = +17.2), and #3 in defensive box plus minus (Flagg = +7.7 / AD = +8.1).

Averaging 17.5 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.6 spg, 1.3 bpg on 46%/31%/78% shooting.

Defensive rating and stats like this are more of a product of your team. If he was on Rutgers it wouldn't be that. He benifiets from playing a lot of the game with Maliq Brown at center where the defense is anchored who has a basically identical Defensive Rating and until 2 games ago was the best on the team. In reality he is not even the one driving it like AD was at Center with his 4.8 blocks a game. You could see why that defense was so good with him as the head of the snake. There was no one else like Brown anywhere close to that defensive rating. Next closest on that team was 8 points lower. Clearly, he was the guy holding it up. Duke's is clearly ensemble of a lot of good defensive talent Flagg is a cog in.

Infact Flagg's defensive steals and Blocks have been disappointing and far under the projections on this board and my own. That's the one area I thought he'd be far more disruptive than he has been. He's barely top 10 block or steal percentage in either in the worst power conference.

The reality is he has a below average True shooting and at 54% true shooting and a 26 PER which isn't elite either when you play 97% of your minutes at PF. The average national player of the year the last 6 years since Zion has averaged a 37 PER 65% true shooting while averaging well over 20 and 10. and most of them played vs top 5 to 10 SOS's. He plays in a **** ACC. The level people were talking him up as, best player in college basketball best he's not there. Even in metrics like Torviks player PRPG he's 34th.

Every stat I cited in my post was brought up by you in the post I was responding to. You specifically brought them up because you obviously didn't think he was going to do as well as in them as he has, which you wanted to use as evidence that he was overhyped and couldn't possibly be a top 5 player in the NCAA as a 17/18 year old. Now that he is grading out as a top 5 player according to the stats you yourself brought up you are making arguments to undermine the validity of those stats... Good stuff. I'm sure continuing to double down is going to work out well.

Which stats are these? His true shooting that was .505% at the time? Cool. It's still not at the level of many of the top players and the thing you completely miss is that his stats are coming vs basically a mid major league compared to the other power leagues. His current defensive SOS played against is 70th. It's like he's playing in a mid major league. Meanwhile he has a 29 PER. You guys guys like Broome with a 36 PER vs the #1 defensive SOS that he's not even in the same galaxy as. Dickinson, Kam Jones, Kalbrenner, Omier are just a few others that have as good or better stats vs top 12 defensive SOS's to name a few. So no he's not doing this vs the same level of competition. He's running up the stat padding in garbage time vs shity 215th ranked Boston College and teams like that. These other league don't have teams like that and overall metrics that look like a mid major league like the MWC. That has to be acknowledged too and most of these stats you'll acknowledge don't acknowledge he's played the 70th best defenses which make those utterly useless IMO or at best missing a equally massive layer of context. I mean like why has his TS improved 9% as his Defensive SOS went from 8th to 70th since ACC play started? Isn't it obvious the correlation? Do a conference split and it's obvious. These other players haven't got that easy ride. If he was playing in the SEC or B12 you likely would have seen the same stats he was putting up vs the top 10 def SOS he was playing a month ago and struggling vs.

[brackdan70]

I'm a lot higher on him now than I was a month ago.

His offense is looking better and it seems like he's starting to develop a real chip on his shoulder, in a good way.

I've played with guys who had good tools but they didn't have the mindset to go out and dominate. Flagg looks like he's starting to bring that mentality to his college game.

Same for me. He has always had a high floor (solid NBA starter) in my mind, but he is bringing that up as we are half way through the season and he is excelling in all aspects of the game. He looks ahead of other Duke freshmen of the past like Tatum and Banchero and is one of the better prospects of the past several years. Not Wemby, but top of the next tier.

[BigGargamel]

People ranking Dylan Harper over Cooper Flagg (cough cough the guy who won't shut up about Flagg's hype) were always silly to me. Flagg IS the prize of this draft, easily, and always was. He's a special talent. I had no doubt he would figure out his offense as the season went along. He was so young coming into college.

[Braggins]

Spoiler:

Defensive rating and stats like this are more of a product of your team. If he was on Rutgers it wouldn't be that. He benifiets from playing a lot of the game with Maliq Brown at center where the defense is anchored who has a basically identical Defensive Rating and until 2 games ago was the best on the team. In reality he is not even the one driving it like AD was at Center with his 4.8 blocks a game. You could see why that defense was so good with him as the head of the snake. There was no one else like Brown anywhere close to that defensive rating. Next closest on that team was 8 points lower. Clearly, he was the guy holding it up. Duke's is clearly ensemble of a lot of good defensive talent Flagg is a cog in.

Infact Flagg's defensive steals and Blocks have been disappointing and far under the projections on this board and my own. That's the one area I thought he'd be far more disruptive than he has been. He's barely top 10 block or steal percentage in either in the worst power conference.

The reality is he has a below average True shooting and at 54% true shooting and a 26 PER which isn't elite either when you play 97% of your minutes at PF. The average national player of the year the last 6 years since Zion has averaged a 37 PER 65% true shooting while averaging well over 20 and 10. and most of them played vs top 5 to 10 SOS's. He plays in a **** ACC. The level people were talking him up as, best player in college basketball best he's not there. Even in metrics like Torviks player PRPG he's 34th.

Every stat I cited in my post was brought up by you in the post I was responding to. You specifically brought them up because you obviously didn't think he was going to do as well as in them as he has, which you wanted to use as evidence that he was overhyped and couldn't possibly be a top 5 player in the NCAA as a 17/18 year old. Now that he is grading out as a top 5 player according to the stats you yourself brought up you are making arguments to undermine the validity of those stats... Good stuff. I'm sure continuing to double down is going to work out well.

Which stats are these? His true shooting that was .505% at the time? Cool. It's still not at the level of many of the top players and the thing you completely miss is that his stats are coming vs basically a mid major league compared to the other power leagues. His current defensive SOS played against is 70th. It's like he's playing in a mid major league. Meanwhile he has a 29 PER. You guys guys like Broome with a 36 PER vs the #1 defensive SOS that he's not even in the same galaxy as. Dickinson, Kam Jones, Kalbrenner, Omier are just a few others that have as good or better stats vs top 12 defensive SOS's to name a few. So no he's not doing this vs the same level of competition. He's running up the stat padding in garbage time vs shity 215th ranked Boston College and teams like that. These other league don't have teams like that and overall metrics that look like a mid major league like the MWC. That has to be acknowledged too and most of these stats you'll acknowledge don't acknowledge he's played the 70th best defenses which make those utterly useless IMO or at best missing a equally massive layer of context. I mean like why has his TS improved 9% as his Defensive SOS went from 8th to 70th since ACC play started? Isn't it obvious the correlation? Do a conference split and it's obvious. These other players haven't got that easy ride. If he was playing in the SEC or B12 you likely would have seen the same stats he was putting up vs the top 10 def SOS he was playing a month ago and struggling vs.

good luck lol

[SNPA]

Do we need a thread on Cooper about our concerns?