Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[HumbleRen]

Y'all got to be patient. We've seen Scottie dominate at different points in the games, throughout the first first 3.5 years.

Right now, it's about helping develop the younger guys, and showcasing the trade the trade chips.

Y'all want him to dominate from the start, but he knows it's better to get others going first. Especially when you're developing

This would have merit if he was some offensive genius like Harden, CP3 or Luka.

He’s not, he’s just simply overwhelmed with the new usage he has and he isn’t equipped to deal with it.

[Scizzup]

It's pretty subjective I guess but I think J Dub's motor on that end is just way more consistent and he guards on ball better. They're pretty equal in defensive versatility and can guard all 5 positions but I think J Dub just does it better.

I can at least see an argument for "better," but "much better" seems hyperbolic.

Scottie should be the much better help defender because of his size

Mmm, dunno about that. He's 6'7, he appears to be doing fine to me. Yeah, he isn't going for 1.5 a game, but he's contesting well, getting deflections... He's second on the team in deflections at 2.5, behind Poeltl's 2.7. Leads the team in offensive loose balls recovered, tied for second in defensive loose balls recovered, second on the team in contested twos, third in contested threes...

Like, he's all over the map for us defensively. Looking just at his raw BPG is probably not the best way to evaluate his utility to us on that end.

I think J Dub certainly has more potential than Scottie as a 3 level scorer.

Possible. If he gets the three back he showed in his first two seasons, then he's got something to work with, yes. Really nice middie. Otherwise not really that stunning, but he has some tools. He's certainly a guy who looks like he can be a quality 2nd or 3rd scorer without too much extra development needed. He's certainly an intriguing prospect. Hasn't shown a HUGE upswing in his development arc. Still only in his third season, and he's the same age as Barnes, so we'll see. His burst doesn't impress me that much but he has a pretty sound handle, takes contact pretty well, and he has a RUDE pull-up. Bunch to be excited about and keeo one interested watching him, for sure.

As someone that watched OKC last couple season you are wrong in some of your assertion. He does not take contact. This is one of his biggest issue, he was a tough shot maker (not this season ). This season he is bad at his floater range shots that he was great at previous 2 season and ofc the 3 ball.

I don’t think it has any to do with usage/volume cause last year he was great scoring without SGA on the floor. Also he averaged 19ppg last year. But he had a very good first step and is a great ball handler in traffic. This year he is heavier and he is slower of dribble but he still gets to his spots and rim ok for a big wing.

Defensively he is much better than Barnes. He is very good on ball defender, quicker and can fight through screens on guards. His number has regressed since Ihart got healthy but at one point he was contesting shots at the rim like Jarett Allen holding them to lower DFG% when he was their “center”. He is a tier 1 wing defender and only 3-4 wing defenders I would take over him and one of them his his teamate Caruso.

[tsherkin]

As someone that watched OKC last couple season you are wrong in some of your assertion. He does not take contact. This is one of his biggest issue, he was a tough shot maker (not this season ). This season he is bad at his floater range shots that he was great at previous 2 season and ofc the 3 ball.

Every time I've watched him, he's been capable of taking a hit and altering his shot to get the bucket or get off the jumper.

[Scizzup]

As someone that watched OKC last couple season you are wrong in some of your assertion. He does not take contact. This is one of his biggest issue, he was a tough shot maker (not this season ). This season he is bad at his floater range shots that he was great at previous 2 season and ofc the 3 ball.

Every time I've watched him, he's been capable of taking a hit and altering his shot to get the bucket or get off the jumper.

Not at the rim, he goes for tough layups (which he was elite at) and OKC fans would tell you the same. It's also why he barely gets to the line. Even last game for example, he had Kyrie on him for 2 poss and he turned his back away from the basket instead of just going through him. He plays a lot more physical on defense

[Indeed]

Huh, Lowry has a FTR 31% at age 24, while Barnes is current 26%. Because Barnes has more possessions that results in higher raw stats, that means he is providing rim pressure

This is a bit misleading.

Lowry's year-by-year FTr through 2020:

Code: Select all

2007: .737
2008: .588
2009: .521
2010: .560
2011: .310
2012: .386
2013: .384
2014: .356
2015: .299
2016: .410
2017: .398
2018: .276
2019: .263
2020: .427


So in essence, you're seeing on the first bad year he had. He was very, very clearly quite adept at drawing fouls pretty much from the word go. He was a .566 FTr guy in college, too. A trend. Scottie was at .338 in his college season and has been quite tepid even on lower volume. Notably below average his first two seasons, but above average last year and this season.

They aren't really the same sort of situation at all.

Indeed, claiming Barnes would shoot like Lowry next year and worth the near-max aren't the same sort of situation as well, for sure right now Barnes isn't worth the near-max, which the expectation (like Siakam) is to carry the team, while he did not impact enough on neither end.

[Indeed]

Y'all got to be patient. We've seen Scottie dominate at different points in the games, throughout the first first 3.5 years.

This has been a byline for a while. To be frank, when guys don't make "The Leap" in their second or third seasons, it becomes increasingly unlikely that they ever will, particularly when it's rooted in certain types of skills and what have you, and when they lack elite tools.

And that's fine. A 2nd or 3rd guy who has strong versatility is also a very valuable player. And Scottie may be improving, but we're not broadly actually seeing results from that to any meaningful extent. His best month so far is incomplete January at 54.8% TS, which is straight-up AWFUL (2.6% below league average). So he hasn't figured out how to put anything together to a meaningful extent for supporting volume yet, and that's a problem at this point.

So patience is in short supply. We all try to retain perspective, of course: he rebounds well, he hustles on D and does a good job there. He's developed as a playmaker. We're seeing any kind of progress in his mid-range game. His 4th quarters are looking decent. His second halves in general, for that matter. But there are still major barriers to him being worthwhile in any sort of volume role, and impatience is inevitable, after all.

His playmaking is overrated, watching Poeltl and Olynyk passing to cutters, Barnes seems to be a tier below. His mid-range also requires everyone to shoot 3 (including our C), but I am unsure our defense would sustain in this path (feel like building around Bosh with less defensive potential, or DeRozan with better defense, with less drawing free throw).

[tsherkin]

Not at the rim, he goes for tough layups (which he was elite at) and OKC fans would tell you the same. It's also why he barely gets to the line. Even last game for example, he had Kyrie on him for 2 poss and he turned his back away from the basket instead of just going through him. He plays a lot more physical on defense

Maybe I"ve just watched his good games, then, but that has not been my takeaway from him. My opinion is heavily informed by my anecdotal experience, though, that is certainly true.

Indeed, claiming Barnes would shoot like Lowry next year and worth the near-max aren't the same sort of situation as well, for sure right now Barnes isn't worth the near-max, which the expectation (like Siakam) is to carry the team, while he did not impact enough on neither end.

None of that is at all relevant to my point. You cherry-picked a single down year from Lowry as if it bore relevance to his development as a player. He was consistently a high-quality foul producer from college forward, while Barnes has not been. It was always in Lowry's skillset. I wasn't speaking to contracts at all, so I'm not sure why you would quote me and say anything on that front.

His playmaking is overrated, watching Poeltl and Olynyk passing to cutters, Barnes seems to be a tier below. His mid-range also requires everyone to shoot 3 (including our C), but I am unsure our defense would sustain in this path (feel like building around Bosh with less defensive potential, or DeRozan with better defense, with less drawing free throw).

Nah, I can't agree with that. His passing has been pretty good. In transition, out of the PnR, from the post, etc. He's a quality passer. He isn't Magic, sure, but he's good at it.

Meantime, his mid-range requiring others to shoot the three isn't a bad thing. That's the point of having a primary initiator and then supporting cast around him, so I"m not sure that's a salient criticism. Poeltl spaces reasonably well for Barnes with his roll action and short jumpers. He doesn't NEED to shoot the 3. It would be nice, but it isn't critical.

Barnes has issues. He needs to get all the way to the rim more, he needs to draw fouls better and he needs to recover his FT% some at the least, no doubt. He doesn't project as a high-end scorer, nor has he at any point. It would be ideal if we had better options than him, though we do not at the moment.

[HumbleRen]

I know Scottie got his issues but saying he’s a tier below Kelly and Poeltl as passers is insane. Type of **** that should get you banned from this thread.

That’s not even a critique at that point, you just a hater. or worse, someone who doesn’t understand basketball at all.

[Indeed]

Indeed, claiming Barnes would shoot like Lowry next year and worth the near-max aren't the same sort of situation as well, for sure right now Barnes isn't worth the near-max, which the expectation (like Siakam) is to carry the team, while he did not impact enough on neither end.

None of that is at all relevant to my point. You cherry-picked a single down year from Lowry as if it bore relevance to his development as a player. He was consistently a high-quality foul producer from college forward, while Barnes has not been. It was always in Lowry's skillset. I wasn't speaking to contracts at all, so I'm not sure why you would quote me and say anything on that front.

Huh, I cherry-picked a single down year? You may want to re-read those posts, it was Tripod who picked the down year and claimed Barnes is reaching his free throw numbers.

...Oh, and as for FT....Lowry in year 4 was getting to the line less than Barnes.

His playmaking is overrated, watching Poeltl and Olynyk passing to cutters, Barnes seems to be a tier below. His mid-range also requires everyone to shoot 3 (including our C), but I am unsure our defense would sustain in this path (feel like building around Bosh with less defensive potential, or DeRozan with better defense, with less drawing free throw).

Nah, I can't agree with that. His passing has been pretty good. In transition, out of the PnR, from the post, etc. He's a quality passer. He isn't Magic, sure, but he's good at it.

Meantime, his mid-range requiring others to shoot the three isn't a bad thing. That's the point of having a primary initiator and then supporting cast around him, so I"m not sure that's a salient criticism. Poeltl spaces reasonably well for Barnes with his roll action and short jumpers. He doesn't NEED to shoot the 3. It would be nice, but it isn't critical.

Barnes has issues. He needs to get all the way to the rim more, he needs to draw fouls better and he needs to recover his FT% some at the least, no doubt. He doesn't project as a high-end scorer, nor has he at any point. It would be ideal if we had better options than him, though we do not at the moment.

You also forgot he got a tons of turnovers. Sure he isn't bad as passing, but again, he is not at the Poeltl and Olynyk level, where they find cutters that can get you a layup.

As for mid-range shooting over smaller players, I think it will require our C to stretch the floor, and it has been with Boucher and Olynyk to make up on the defense as well.

[Scase]

I know Scottie got his issues but saying he’s a tier below Kelly and Poeltl as passers is insane. Type of **** that should get you banned from this thread.

That’s not even a critique at that point, you just a hater. or worse, someone who doesn’t understand basketball at all.

Yeah, that's absolutely insane. You can have your opinions on him, and no one would fault you for saying he's like a 2nd/3rd option guy, but saying either of those two are better passers is just pure haterade.

[tsherkin]

Huh, I cherry-picked a single down year? You may want to re-read those posts, it was Tripod who picked the down year and claimed Barnes is reaching his free throw numbers.

...Oh, and as for FT....Lowry in year 4 was getting to the line less than Barnes.

I might have screwed up the nested quote, then

You also forgot he got a tons of turnovers. Sure he isn't bad as passing, but again, he is not at the Poeltl and Olynyk level, where they find cutters that can get you a layup.

"Tons of turnovers" is hyperbole. He certainly does commit turnovers, but his actual TOV% isn't problematic at the moment given his responsibilities. It could, certainly, be better but that isn't the same thing.

As for mid-range shooting over smaller players, I think it will require our C to stretch the floor, and it has been with Boucher and Olynyk to make up on the defense as well.

I don't see it. I mean, again, it wouldn't hurt, but he's getting to spots and running plays and looking fine right now with Poeltl on the floor. If he had a competent second scorer drawing attention instead of just Barrett, it might be a little different, but he isn't presently being inhibited by Poeltl not being out at the 3pt line, that isn't really happening.

[Indeed]

Huh, I cherry-picked a single down year? You may want to re-read those posts, it was Tripod who picked the down year and claimed Barnes is reaching his free throw numbers.

...Oh, and as for FT....Lowry in year 4 was getting to the line less than Barnes.

I might have screwed up the nested quote, then

You also forgot he got a tons of turnovers. Sure he isn't bad as passing, but again, he is not at the Poeltl and Olynyk level, where they find cutters that can get you a layup.

"Tons of turnovers" is hyperbole. He certainly does commit turnovers, but his actual TOV% isn't problematic at the moment given his responsibilities. It could, certainly, be better but that isn't the same thing.

As for mid-range shooting over smaller players, I think it will require our C to stretch the floor, and it has been with Boucher and Olynyk to make up on the defense as well.

I don't see it. I mean, again, it wouldn't hurt, but he's getting to spots and running plays and looking fine right now with Poeltl on the floor. If he had a competent second scorer drawing attention instead of just Barrett, it might be a little different, but he isn't presently being inhibited by Poeltl not being out at the 3pt line, that isn't really happening.

I don't re-call him having those mid-range opportunities with Poeltl that often, but it is more based on the matchup in smaller player, which is rather inconsistent (closing moment, you are unlikely to get those). I mean it is a good thing to have a mid-range, but I am unsure the focus of making it great mainly against smaller player and with a very specific lineup that might give up on defense (eg. playing Olynyk for that stretch 5 or Dick for more spacing).

I think his 3 point shooting and not have teams going under on screen would get him better down hill opportunities as a playmaker.

As for passing, he was passing so hard, for example, against the Celtics, where he was passing to a open cutting Agbaji, and Agbaji just can't handle it. Others I see a mix of bounce pass and other techniques, while might just be straight line and transition lob, and those end up with turnovers.

[tsherkin]

I don't re-call him having those mid-range opportunities with Poeltl that often, but it is more based on the matchup in smaller player, which is rather inconsistent (closing moment, you are unlikely to get those). I mean it is a good thing to have a mid-range, but I am unsure the focus of making it great mainly against smaller player and with a very specific lineup that might give up on defense (eg. playing Olynyk for that stretch 5 or Dick for more spacing).

The mid-range is always available. Same as it was with worse spacing in the 90s. It isnt a concern.

I think his 3 point shooting and not have teams going under on screen would get him better down hill opportunities as a playmaker.

It would, on balance, be better if he was competent from 3, yes.

As for passing, he was passing so hard, for example, against the Celtics, where he was passing to a open cutting Agbaji, and Agbaji just can't handle it. Others I see a mix of bounce pass and other techniques, while might just be straight line and transition lob, and those end up with turnovers.

It happens. Guys have to get used to him in this role, and he to them. Happened to Magic, too, not that Barnes is at thst level.

[SFour]

Cade shot 7-26 yesterday, Banchero is 4-17 today.....goes to show that Barnes is allowed to have a 4-16 game. Obviously he needs to be better but it's not the end of the world.

[tsherkin]

Cade shot 7-26 yesterday, Banchero is 4-17 today.....goes to show that Barnes is allowed to have a 4-16 game. Obviously he needs to be better but it's not the end of the world.

Cade's main issue is that he struggles as a volume scorer. He didn't just have a bad game, he continues to be almost 3% below league average efficiency, drawing poorly, and blowing chunk at the rim... when he gets there. The main difference is that he has a more effective handle and is a superior playmaker. He's got all the mid-range chops in the world, but he can't do the things which support efficiency.

I don't think anyone outside of Detroit is expecting him to turn the corner as a scorer, but he's got the mobility and the tools to be a pretty good playmaker, so they're dealing with it in the absence of anyone else who can support the scoring volume at the moment.

[Raps in 4]

Cade shot 7-26 yesterday, Banchero is 4-17 today.....goes to show that Barnes is allowed to have a 4-16 game. Obviously he needs to be better but it's not the end of the world.

Cade's main issue is that he struggles as a volume scorer. He didn't just have a bad game, he continues to be almost 3% below league average efficiency, drawing poorly, and blowing chunk at the rim... when he gets there. The main difference is that he has a more effective handle and is a superior playmaker. He's got all the mid-range chops in the world, but he can't do the things which support efficiency.

I don't think anyone outside of Detroit is expecting him to turn the corner as a scorer, but he's got the mobility and the tools to be a pretty good playmaker, so they're dealing with it in the absence of anyone else who can support the scoring volume at the moment.

A bunch of Raptors fans think he's turned the corner as a 1A scorer lol. He's hardly better than Scottie on that side of the ball right now. He hits 3s at a higher clip, but still manages to be just as inefficient of an overall scorer.

[Scase]

Cade shot 7-26 yesterday, Banchero is 4-17 today.....goes to show that Barnes is allowed to have a 4-16 game. Obviously he needs to be better but it's not the end of the world.

Cade's main issue is that he struggles as a volume scorer. He didn't just have a bad game, he continues to be almost 3% below league average efficiency, drawing poorly, and blowing chunk at the rim... when he gets there. The main difference is that he has a more effective handle and is a superior playmaker. He's got all the mid-range chops in the world, but he can't do the things which support efficiency.

I don't think anyone outside of Detroit is expecting him to turn the corner as a scorer, but he's got the mobility and the tools to be a pretty good playmaker, so they're dealing with it in the absence of anyone else who can support the scoring volume at the moment.

A bunch of Raptors fans think he's turned the corner as a 1A scorer lol. He's hardly better than Scottie on that side of the ball right now. He hits 3s at a higher clip, but still manages to be just as inefficient of an overall scorer.

So this is kinda correct and not, he struggles with efficiency on volume, but oddly enough this year his volume has increased but his efficiency is identical to last year. It's still bad at 54.6% TS% lol, but interesting to note that it didn't get worse with more volume.

[tsherkin]

A bunch of Raptors fans think he's turned the corner as a 1A scorer lol.

No one presenting a sane opinion thinks that.

So this is kinda correct and not, he struggles with efficiency on volume, but oddly enough this year his volume has increased but his efficiency is identical to last year. It's still bad at 54.6% TS% lol, but interesting to note that it didn't get worse with more volume.

Because his core skillset as a scorer is about middies, and he's quite good with those. So he maintains similar efficiency on similar shots. He's also setting a career-high in 3PA/g and 3P% at the same time, which is helping match things off

[Vampirate]

Cade shot 7-26 yesterday, Banchero is 4-17 today.....goes to show that Barnes is allowed to have a 4-16 game. Obviously he needs to be better but it's not the end of the world.

Cade's main issue is that he struggles as a volume scorer. He didn't just have a bad game, he continues to be almost 3% below league average efficiency, drawing poorly, and blowing chunk at the rim... when he gets there. The main difference is that he has a more effective handle and is a superior playmaker. He's got all the mid-range chops in the world, but he can't do the things which support efficiency.

I don't think anyone outside of Detroit is expecting him to turn the corner as a scorer, but he's got the mobility and the tools to be a pretty good playmaker, so they're dealing with it in the absence of anyone else who can support the scoring volume at the moment.

Imo Cade should really concentrate on getting more of his shots from 3. It's his best shot imo.

He takes way too many shots from 3-10ft 33.8% and is good at them but not great.

I'll be honest, I never thought Mobley would be the better 3 point shooter on percentage than Barnes is but here we are.

Mobley is at 42.1% on 2.8 attempts, he's come far.

Barnes is (sigh) 27.2% on 5.2 attempts.

One could say 'he should shoot less threes' the issue with that is it will be much harder to build a winning team with him if he can't both shoot enough 3s and be adequate with them. Even as a support player he needs to be decent at shooting the 3.

[tsherkin]

Imo Cade should really concentrate on getting more of his shots from 3. It's his best shot imo.

He takes way too many shots from 3-10ft 33.8% and is good at them but not great.

He's 48.5% from 3-10 feet, though, so that's actually a fairly good shot for him. He's already taking almost 7 3PA/g; he's got to take shots in and around the paint sometimes when he's slashing to create for others.

I don't think it's really as simple as "take more threes."

I think it's more, very much as with Barnes, "learn how to get to the rim and draw fouls." Stuff from the earlier days of the league. 3pt shooting is only so useful. It has its flaws as well.