2024-2025 Regular Season Game 44: Denver Nuggets (25-16) at Orlando Magic (23-20) 6:00PM

[three3d]

In all honesty because of salary cap and second aprons it makes it feel like the only path to adding a difference maker on this team now is by the NBA Draft.

This will take a LOT of heat but if somehow you wound up being able to tank into a top 10 pick in this draft you’d have an extremely valuable asset. Everyone keeps talking about salary cap, you tank a season for a pick and hopefully don’t miss on it.

The draft is more valuable than it has ever been, but that also means there could be a way to exploit an undervalued trade market. I just don't see the guys available right now at the deadline.

Call around in the offseason they could find their Avdija trade. A really good player under contract for multiple years.

Also there may be a point where Paolo and Franz are looking really good and we are on the cusp of a title and you make a big trade for a 3rd star or near star and go into the 2nd apron for a year or 2.

Also maybe a player becomes available that is too good to pass up on and you go into the 2nd apron for. Ant Edwards could ask out one day? Who knows.

Everything is mostly predicated on Paolo and Franz continual improvment though. I just don't love trading future assets for temp help in their 3rd and 4th seasons. That's all. I could be wrong, but that's how I feel. And again there are some players I would be OK with. I am very for some form of a trade.

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2024/10/22/nbas-second-apron-changes-team-building-for-owners/#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20if%20Phoenix%20finished,to%20have%20to%20get%20lucky.

So I found a pretty decent explanation of what these new guidelines are and what it means to have your draft picks frozen due to being over the second apron.

OKC definitely set themselves up nicely to work around this and remain a contender.

[Skybox]

Re-signing a player is not guaranteed and especially for us when we are going to be somewhat limited by 3 huge contracts. We benefit more from acquiring players on good contracts. Not even to mention the new CBA, this isn't the same NBA as it has been.

If you can't see how trading future assets for a short-term fix for a young team that probably isn't ready to compete could possibly hurt us then IDK what to say. I get you want to trade for help, I'm not saying that is wrong, but there is absolutely a world where trading assets for help in non-title years could lower our chances in the future in some capacity. That's all I'm saying.

Nothing is guaranteed, of course...I'd take my chances on keeping guys that are doing well and fitting in over banking everything on "organic internal development" of skills that are not apparent in players that people are very hopefully projecting. Renting contributors, even if they walk, isn't the end of the world either...replace them with a similar option when the time comes-if you must. Be able to let fails walk is kind of a plus too. Good orgs don't manage their roster from fear or insecurity.

I mean there are players I would be OK acquiring. It's a case by case situation.

It has nothing to do with fear. It's about trying to win a title and using the assets in the best manner possible. Trading 1sts now in unlikely contention years will likely lower our title odds. It might make for a temporarily more fun season, but the ultimate goal is title. Again there are still going to be players for whom it makes sense. This isn't a blanket statement. But one does have to understand this is not our likely timeline so any rash decisions could lower our chances when the likely timeline arrives.

Obviously, there are players I wouldn't want too...of course it's case by case-that's not even worth stating...what does "contention years" have to do to explain NOT wanting to improve your roster? Where does this idea that you can decide "we're ready now, flip a switch and make all the right moves to go from so-so to contender"? Steady, incremental progress and constant course corrections- with the understandable missteps (our fault or not) is what FO's are supposed to do - not just show up at the draft.

If we traded for Sexton, for example, and he delivered as hoped, it might make re-upping KCP an issue (for him if he hasn't held up his end of the $66m bargain). Tired of being scared (it IS fear) of talent having all of the leverage...the new CBA requires forethought and an emphasis on fit and prioritizing rather than the willy-nilly talent acquisition and overpays we have comfortably enjoyed as a rebuilding team. We're still acting like we're lucky and content to be here instead of trying to keep the progress moving.

It keeps coming back to "Trades don't have to be bad or rash or panicky"

[eyriq]

In all honesty because of salary cap and second aprons it makes it feel like the only path to adding a difference maker on this team now is by the NBA Draft.

This will take a LOT of heat but if somehow you wound up being able to tank into a top 10 pick in this draft you’d have an extremely valuable asset. Everyone keeps talking about salary cap, you tank a season for a pick and hopefully don’t miss on it.

Stop

[Idiosyncratic]

Nothing is guaranteed, of course...I'd take my chances on keeping guys that are doing well and fitting in over banking everything on "organic internal development" of skills that are not apparent in players that people are very hopefully projecting. Renting contributors, even if they walk, isn't the end of the world either...replace them with a similar option when the time comes-if you must. Be able to let fails walk is kind of a plus too. Good orgs don't manage their roster from fear or insecurity.

I mean there are players I would be OK acquiring. It's a case by case situation.

It has nothing to do with fear. It's about trying to win a title and using the assets in the best manner possible. Trading 1sts now in unlikely contention years will likely lower our title odds. It might make for a temporarily more fun season, but the ultimate goal is title. Again there are still going to be players for whom it makes sense. This isn't a blanket statement. But one does have to understand this is not our likely timeline so any rash decisions could lower our chances when the likely timeline arrives.

Obviously, there are players I wouldn't want too...of course it's case by case-that's not even worth stating...what does "contention years" have to do to explain NOT wanting to improve your roster? Where does this idea that you can decide "we're ready now, flip a switch and make all the right moves to go from so-so to contender"? Steady, incremental progress and constant course corrections- with the understandable missteps (our fault or not) is what FO's are supposed to do - not just show up at the draft.

If we traded for Sexton, for example, and he delivered as hoped, it might make re-upping KCP an issue (for him if he hasn't held up his end of the $66m bargain). Tired of being scared (it IS fear) of talent having all of the leverage...the new CBA requires forethought and an emphasis on fit and prioritizing rather than the willy-nilly talent acquisition and overpays we have comfortably enjoyed as a rebuilding team. We're still acting like we're lucky and content to be here instead of trying to keep the progress moving.

It keeps coming back to "Trades don't have to be bad or rash or panicky"

I wouldn't call a Sexton trade a bad move, I would understand it. I'm just trying to explain why I think standing pat again this deadline would not be the disaster some think it is, that's all. I hope you can at least see what I'm getting at in my logic that assets spent now could have a decent chance at lowering our futue chances of winning or acquiring someone better than what is available now.

Because I do understand your sentiment of wanting to make a move, and I agree with a lot of your proposals.

[three3d]

My understanding from the second apron now is if you’re in the second apron this season ( 2024-2025 ) your 1st round draft pick in 2032 becomes frozen and you can’t use that as trade bait.

[three3d]

The NBA by far has the most ridiculous salary cap rules and penalties. The fact that you can do your job to well and draft to well and eventually be penalized by resigning your own players makes is absurd.

[Skybox]

My understanding from the second apron now is if you’re in the second apron this season ( 2024-2025 ) your 1st round draft pick in 2032 becomes frozen and you can’t use that as trade bait.

We're okay for now and next year...this is also why you see teams acknowledge bad deals when they bite the bullet and offload a decent, but overpaid player. We may be in that position with WCJ, Moe, or Cole, if we don't move them. The hope is that you move those kind of guys out, even if you have to give a little extra, at the same time you bring the better (fitting) guys in. Might also be a reason to trade for a "rental"...so you have options.

At the same time, now IS a time where we have some breathing room to capitalize on some other team's vulnerability...rather than drift into our "tight times" with players that don't really contribute. Some of those guys might just be fit issues.

[eyriq]

I mean there are players I would be OK acquiring. It's a case by case situation.

It has nothing to do with fear. It's about trying to win a title and using the assets in the best manner possible. Trading 1sts now in unlikely contention years will likely lower our title odds. It might make for a temporarily more fun season, but the ultimate goal is title. Again there are still going to be players for whom it makes sense. This isn't a blanket statement. But one does have to understand this is not our likely timeline so any rash decisions could lower our chances when the likely timeline arrives.

Obviously, there are players I wouldn't want too...of course it's case by case-that's not even worth stating...what does "contention years" have to do to explain NOT wanting to improve your roster? Where does this idea that you can decide "we're ready now, flip a switch and make all the right moves to go from so-so to contender"? Steady, incremental progress and constant course corrections- with the understandable missteps (our fault or not) is what FO's are supposed to do - not just show up at the draft.

If we traded for Sexton, for example, and he delivered as hoped, it might make re-upping KCP an issue (for him if he hasn't held up his end of the $66m bargain). Tired of being scared (it IS fear) of talent having all of the leverage...the new CBA requires forethought and an emphasis on fit and prioritizing rather than the willy-nilly talent acquisition and overpays we have comfortably enjoyed as a rebuilding team. We're still acting like we're lucky and content to be here instead of trying to keep the progress moving.

It keeps coming back to "Trades don't have to be bad or rash or panicky"

I wouldn't call a Sexton trade a bad move, I would understand it. I'm just trying to explain why I think standing pat again this deadline would not be the disaster some think it is, that's all. I hope you can at least see what I'm getting at in my logic that assets spent now could have a decent chance at lowering our futue chances of winning or acquiring someone better than what is available now.

Because I do understand your sentiment of wanting to make a move, and I agree with a lot of your proposals.

Your logic is meticulous. It recognizes:

1. That tanking has yielded our franchise players
2. Where we are on their development timelines
3. When our championship window is likely to open
4. The implications of the new CBA for the value of draft equity


The only sort of reasonable debate is around whether:

1. Paolo and Franz are franchise players
2. Paolo, Franz, and Suggs have a lot or a little upside remaining
3. Paolo, Franz, and Suggs are already good enough to contend
4. Roleplayers are more valuable for us then draft picks

[Bergmaniac]

The NBA by far has the most ridiculous salary cap rules and penalties. The fact that you can do your job to well and draft to well and eventually be penalized by resigning your own players makes is absurd.

The NHL has an actual hard salary cap.

[Idiosyncratic]

Obviously, there are players I wouldn't want too...of course it's case by case-that's not even worth stating...what does "contention years" have to do to explain NOT wanting to improve your roster? Where does this idea that you can decide "we're ready now, flip a switch and make all the right moves to go from so-so to contender"? Steady, incremental progress and constant course corrections- with the understandable missteps (our fault or not) is what FO's are supposed to do - not just show up at the draft.

If we traded for Sexton, for example, and he delivered as hoped, it might make re-upping KCP an issue (for him if he hasn't held up his end of the $66m bargain). Tired of being scared (it IS fear) of talent having all of the leverage...the new CBA requires forethought and an emphasis on fit and prioritizing rather than the willy-nilly talent acquisition and overpays we have comfortably enjoyed as a rebuilding team. We're still acting like we're lucky and content to be here instead of trying to keep the progress moving.

It keeps coming back to "Trades don't have to be bad or rash or panicky"

I wouldn't call a Sexton trade a bad move, I would understand it. I'm just trying to explain why I think standing pat again this deadline would not be the disaster some think it is, that's all. I hope you can at least see what I'm getting at in my logic that assets spent now could have a decent chance at lowering our futue chances of winning or acquiring someone better than what is available now.

Because I do understand your sentiment of wanting to make a move, and I agree with a lot of your proposals.

Your logic is meticulous. It recognizes:

1. That tanking has yielded our franchise players
2. Where we are on their development timelines
3. When our championship window is likely to open
4. The implications of the new CBA for the value of draft equity


The only sort of reasonable debate is around whether:

1. Paolo and Franz are franchise players
2. Paolo, Franz, and Suggs have a lot or a little upside remaining
3. Paolo, Franz, and Suggs are already good enough to contend
4. Roleplayers are more valuable for us then draft picks

Agree with your debate points completely.

And on the draft pick vs. role player one I say it is going to depend player to player. I know many here don't want to add more rookies, but still there's a point where 4 cheap years (pus ability to match in RFA) of a chance at a player is better than some role players. It will depend player to player and based on their contracts.

We can stay on Sexton for an example, but I don't think a 1st for Sexton would be bad value at all. I'm not sure it would be my optimal move, but I am not going to get on them if they do it. I will still however keep tabs on who is drafted after what our pick would have been though

[three3d]

There’s absolutely no structure to the offense right now making it really hard to gage Paolo for me. The question sounds absurd given what we’ve seen at times from him, but are we overrating or valuing Paolo.

When Franz comes back if there isn’t a system put in place that allows it to be Paolo AND Franz instead of Paolo OR Franz it’s a mismanagement. To me that’s been the problem and that problem is using these two gifted playmakers together instead of separate. This is a coaching issue and I’m not talking about Mosley. Give Mosley a offensive minded assistant coach, and let him develop the offense.

[three3d]

Not to get off topic here, but this is the most active chat right now , does anyone know how Goga got the concussion? Like seriously the last time we saw him, he was in the tunnel ripping off his jersey. Did he bang his head on the wall also lol? We’re just strange to not have him get a head injury in the game and see him act like that and the next thing we know he’s out in the concussion protocol.

[eyriq]

There’s absolutely no structure to the offense right now making it really hard to gage Paolo for me. The question sounds absurd given what we’ve seen at times from him, but are we overrating or valuing Paolo.

When Franz comes back if there isn’t a system put in place that allows it to be Paolo AND Franz instead of Paolo OR Franz it’s a mismanagement. To me that’s been the problem and that problem is using these two gifted playmakers together instead of separate. This is a coaching issue and I’m not talking about Mosley. Give Mosley a offensive minded assistant coach, and let him develop the offense.

You get tripped up by being reactionary over and over again but you just can't help yourself? I mean if I was the originator of the elephant meme I'd do some introspection. Focus on long-term trends!

[JoshuaPotter]

Not to get off topic here, but this is the most active chat right now , does anyone know how Goga got the concussion? Like seriously the last time we saw him, he was in the tunnel ripping off his jersey. Did he bang his head on the wall also lol? We’re just strange to not have him get a head injury in the game and see him act like that and the next thing we know he’s out in the concussion protocol.

Out of character irritability and or irrational behaviors can be a symptom of concussion that can last for days and even show up as a symptom days after the concussion.

[three3d]

There’s absolutely no structure to the offense right now making it really hard to gage Paolo for me. The question sounds absurd given what we’ve seen at times from him, but are we overrating or valuing Paolo.

When Franz comes back if there isn’t a system put in place that allows it to be Paolo AND Franz instead of Paolo OR Franz it’s a mismanagement. To me that’s been the problem and that problem is using these two gifted playmakers together instead of separate. This is a coaching issue and I’m not talking about Mosley. Give Mosley a offensive minded assistant coach, and let him develop the offense.

You get tripped up by being reactionary over and over again but you just can't help yourself? I mean if I was the originator of the elephant meme I'd do some introspection. Focus on long-term trends!

Long term trends ? lol come on there is no such thing as a long term trend around here, just waiting and evaluating.

[basketballRob]

There’s absolutely no structure to the offense right now making it really hard to gage Paolo for me. The question sounds absurd given what we’ve seen at times from him, but are we overrating or valuing Paolo.

When Franz comes back if there isn’t a system put in place that allows it to be Paolo AND Franz instead of Paolo OR Franz it’s a mismanagement. To me that’s been the problem and that problem is using these two gifted playmakers together instead of separate. This is a coaching issue and I’m not talking about Mosley. Give Mosley a offensive minded assistant coach, and let him develop the offense.

You get tripped up by being reactionary over and over again but you just can't help yourself? I mean if I was the originator of the elephant meme I'd do some introspection. Focus on long-term trends!

Long term trends ? lol come on there is no such thing as a long term trend around here, just waiting and evaluating.

No playoffs 2023, playoffs 1st round 2024, 2025?

Do you see the trend.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[three3d]

You get tripped up by being reactionary over and over again but you just can't help yourself? I mean if I was the originator of the elephant meme I'd do some introspection. Focus on long-term trends!

Long term trends ? lol come on there is no such thing as a long term trend around here, just waiting and evaluating.

No playoffs 2023, playoffs 1st round 2024, 2025?

Do you see the trend.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

Buddy I’ve seen a trend all the way back to the Penny and Shaq days. Wash rinse and repeat.

[Last Guardian]

Just a sucky season. The lack of talent we have to put out there was bound to catch up with us. Yes they are scrappy and got a few gritty wins...but there is no way they could keep it up especially against good teams when they simply cannot make shots consistently. And the few that can make shots are putting it lightly a bit inconsistent. Sometimes you just have to remember if this team was healthy that TDS, Caleb, Queen, Cole, Joseph, etc. wouldn't be playing AT all, and 3 of them are our current starters.

It would be nice if Paolo could keep the team afloat the way Franz did, but its a tough ask for someone who just came back and is minutes are restricted...and his teammates cannot make any open shot he or anyone else gets them. In this game though, Paolo was pretty trash himself.

Mentally, I consider this a lost season and have no expectations and I'm going to just try to enjoy the team getting healthy again. And damn Moe was a big loss...sometimes you don't know what you have until its gone. Dude was a consistent bucket for this team. Having every single player be a defensive player just doesn't work clearly. I think we all rather be 6th best defense if it meant our offense could be 10th, instead of being 2nd best defense and one of the worst offenses.

[eyriq]

Long term trends ? lol come on there is no such thing as a long term trend around here, just waiting and evaluating.

No playoffs 2023, playoffs 1st round 2024, 2025?

Do you see the trend.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

Buddy I’ve seen a trend all the way back to the Penny and Shaq days. Wash rinse and repeat.

You can follow a simple process to identify an appropriate window for a trend in team development. Finding a window is all about compartmentalizing seasons by reasonable markers. Here is the process:

1. Identify the executive
2. Identify the coach
3. (Optional) Identify the win shares leader

Doing this for Orlando would give you a window where the executive is Weltman and the coach is Mosley.

Then look at a metric of interest over that period to identify any trends.

[Skybox]

Long term trends ? lol come on there is no such thing as a long term trend around here, just waiting and evaluating.

No playoffs 2023, playoffs 1st round 2024, 2025?

Do you see the trend.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

Buddy I’ve seen a trend all the way back to the Penny and Shaq days. Wash rinse and repeat.

I don't support getting comfortable with mediocrity...why do we even have a FO? If it's ALL about "draft & develop" just let Mose do the picking

eyriq loves a good team-building "system" and I don't disagree with that, but we've moved out of that phase (which is awesome) ahead of Weltman's flow chart & timeline, so we better slow things down

We ARE at the point of filling in around the core...If you don't think we have a core, be decisive and trade one of the Big 3 quickly - before the better GM's recognizes they aren't as good as the general community thinks they are. I'm not advocating for this, I'm just saying either we have a core to build around or we don't. If you think we do, there's absolutely no reason to wait to support them...sadly, this has been the opposite of ORL's recent past, where we've held on to mediocre or just bad players way too long.

There's a pretty good amount of talent on this team...I think that we could, basically, have an equivalent amount of talent - just better fitting - and be a much better functioning TEAM.