Cowley: Bulls ready to add Patrick Williams to trade block

[League Circles]

You're taking me too literally. My point was simply that long term deals for non core players are very common.

You aren't taking me literally enough.

5 year deals with POs for players like Pat are not common. His deal is extremely uncommon, in fact, he's the only one in the past 3 years to sign one. We did so prior to even letting him hit FA or assessing the market, after the results came in, it looks like the likely outcome would have been something like 40M less guaranteed if we had simply waited.

But I'm not sure what your point really is because you seem to agree this was a horrendous practice while at the same time saying it doesn't mean we really liked Pat but we just had to do it. No, we didn't have to do it. We could have simply done nothing and it would have turned out much better.

Frankly that makes the deal almost that much worse - that they gave 5 years to a guy they're likewarm about.

Or, and hear me out, they aren't luke warm on Pat. AKME is really high on Pat. All evidence supports this, but in the end, it really doesn't matter, because...

I mean, I get it, everything has a price including number of years, but there's simply no defense for giving him 5 years at anything over the MLE and got plenty more than that. And he should have only been offered a 1+1 team option deal. I just think his agent was asking for like 25 mil a year over 3-4 years and AK conceded to 5 liability years for the "discount rate" of 18 mil flat, whereas he was clearly worth 11 or 12 at the most and is now playing like a 4 or 5 million dollar player so far this year.

Which gets back to the irrelevant part of this argument:
Is AKME stupid for misevaluating Pat and thinking he's way better than he is?
Is AKME stupid for misevaluating the FA market and pre-emptively vastly overpaying him?
Is AKME stupid for his holistic view of how to handle middling FAs?

I think the answer is yes to all 3, you think the answers is yes to the bottom two only. It really doesn't matter all that much why they consistently make bad decisions as long as they continue to do it.

Yeah, I don't know what else to say to clarify my point, which was simply that I don't think they've loved Patrick since his rookie year. Benching him in each of the last 3 seasons, giving him a flat contract that they're open to getting out of immediately when it became possible last week, and not scheming to get him a larger offensive role, etc is the evidence I see for this.

[Jcool0]

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[2weekswithpay]

A Pat for Nurkic swap works and makes sense for both teams. The Suns might be the only team willing to take Pat without an asset attached.

[HomoSapien]

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"Win."

[HomoSapien]

I guess Pat for Nurkic would be the base of any trade. We'd basically be trading Pat for a better contract. Pretty underwhelming.

[Muzbar]

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Lol, "sweepstakes".

The Suns don't have anyone to match his salary and can't aggregate salary to do so.

A Pat for Nurkic swap works and makes sense for both teams. The Suns might be the only team willing to take Pat without an asset attached.

Nurk makes less than Pat so it doesn't work as the Suns can't take back more than they send out.

Where do they keep getting the information of these "odds" from?

Edit: oops, I thought Nurk made 16m, my bad.

[panthermark]

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I would probably refer to as the "sleepstakes" instead of the "sweepstakes"

[HomoSapien]

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Potential outgong trades from these teams:

Suns: Nurkic (2 years remaining on contract)
Available Draft Capital: 2026 Nuggets 2nd, 2031 Suns 1st and 2nd, 2031 Nuggets 2nd.

Heat: Ducan Robinson (expiring)
Available Draft Capital: 2026 1st , 2026 Lakers 2nd, 2028-2031 1st, 2031 2nd

Wizards: Brogdan (Pat + Duarte) or Bagley and Johnny Davis
Available Draft Capital: 2025 2nds (Own, GS, PHX), 2026 1sts (Own, PHX), 2026 2nds (Was, Chi, Phx), tons of 2nds and 1sts beyond this

OKC: Wiggins + Fillers or Dort
Available Draft Capital: All of them.

Utah: Sexton (2 years remaining) or Clarkson + Eubanks or Collins for Pat and Duarte
Draft Capital: tons but unlikely Ainge will include them.

Cavaliers: Okoro (3 years remaining) and Nniang (2 years remaining)? Nothing really obvious here that would appeal to us
Draft Capital: Tons of 2nd round picks available from now until 2029.

Mavericks: Gafford + Grimes or Kleber and Marshall or Washington and PJ Washington and Exum
Draft Capital: 2025 1st, 2025 2nd (Den or PHI), 2026 1st, 2031 1st

NOP: No obvious trades unless Herb Jones is involved


These are some slim pickings. Collins is the best player and I'd be open to trading him, but it's against the rebuild type of move. I've always liked Gafford and Grimes seemed interesting early in his career but I'm not sure if those are the types of pieces we should be pursing now? Both are reasonably young though.

Of these, I'm sort of leaning towards a trade for Bagley, Davis, and a few seconds (ideally Washington's own 2nd as that's basically a late 1st). It gives us complete cap relief (which truthfully, I'm not sure is all that useful for us but it's at least some flexibility) and a chance to look at Bagley and Davis. Both are somewhat recent lottery picks that have been completely written off. It's unlikely that they succeed at this point, but Bagley at least puts up numbers when given minutes and is a skilled offensive player. That, honestly, is arguably already an upgrade over Pat.

[lostonbase]

Butler for Pat and White works in the trade checker

[kodo]

So Pat's value is a guy who is so bad on both ends they're starting Mason Plumlee over him and traded for a 2nd round center to replace him.

Bulls FO is special.

[MAQ]

A Pat for Nurkic swap works and makes sense for both teams. The Suns might be the only team willing to take Pat without an asset attached.

Always liked Nurkic. Would be happy with this.

[dougthonus]

If we traded Pat for Nukic with no other assets coming back (or something effectively which is no asset like Denver's 2026 2nd rounder) then just oof.

It'd be good to get out of the mistake earlier rather than later, but man, to take on a year of dead salary and not even fully get out of his deal shows what a bad miss it was. Same is true of Duncan Robinson if we go the Heat route and get nothing back.

[HomoSapien]

If we traded Pat for Nukic with no other assets coming back (or something effectively which is no asset like Denver's 2026 2nd rounder) then just oof.

It'd be good to get out of the mistake earlier rather than later, but man, to take on a year of dead salary and not even fully get out of his deal shows what a bad miss it was. Same is true of Duncan Robinson if we go the Heat route and get nothing back.

Yeah, it would be a massive whiff because it's admitting that within a few months you realized you were better off just letting Pat walk out the door for nothing than getting either of these returns.

[GoBlue72391]

You're taking me too literally. My point was simply that long term deals for non core players are very common.

You aren't taking me literally enough.

5 year deals with POs for players like Pat are not common. His deal is extremely uncommon, in fact, he's the only one in the past 3 years to sign one. We did so prior to even letting him hit FA or assessing the market, after the results came in, it looks like the likely outcome would have been something like 40M less guaranteed if we had simply waited.

But I'm not sure what your point really is because you seem to agree this was a horrendous practice while at the same time saying it doesn't mean we really liked Pat but we just had to do it. No, we didn't have to do it. We could have simply done nothing and it would have turned out much better.

Frankly that makes the deal almost that much worse - that they gave 5 years to a guy they're likewarm about.

Or, and hear me out, they aren't luke warm on Pat. AKME is really high on Pat. All evidence supports this, but in the end, it really doesn't matter, because...

I mean, I get it, everything has a price including number of years, but there's simply no defense for giving him 5 years at anything over the MLE and got plenty more than that. And he should have only been offered a 1+1 team option deal. I just think his agent was asking for like 25 mil a year over 3-4 years and AK conceded to 5 liability years for the "discount rate" of 18 mil flat, whereas he was clearly worth 11 or 12 at the most and is now playing like a 4 or 5 million dollar player so far this year.

Which gets back to the irrelevant part of this argument:
Is AKME stupid for misevaluating Pat and thinking he's way better than he is?
Is AKME stupid for misevaluating the FA market and pre-emptively vastly overpaying him?
Is AKME stupid for his holistic view of how to handle middling FAs?

I think the answer is yes to all 3, you think the answers is yes to the bottom two only. It really doesn't matter all that much why they consistently make bad decisions as long as they continue to do it.

Yeah, I don't know what else to say to clarify my point, which was simply that I don't think they've loved Patrick since his rookie year. Benching him in each of the last 3 seasons, giving him a flat contract that they're open to getting out of immediately when it became possible last week, and not scheming to get him a larger offensive role, etc is the evidence I see for this.

This is insanity. Truly, it is. You're the only person in the world with that opinion, so congrats on that.

[League Circles]

You aren't taking me literally enough.

5 year deals with POs for players like Pat are not common. His deal is extremely uncommon, in fact, he's the only one in the past 3 years to sign one. We did so prior to even letting him hit FA or assessing the market, after the results came in, it looks like the likely outcome would have been something like 40M less guaranteed if we had simply waited.

But I'm not sure what your point really is because you seem to agree this was a horrendous practice while at the same time saying it doesn't mean we really liked Pat but we just had to do it. No, we didn't have to do it. We could have simply done nothing and it would have turned out much better.



Or, and hear me out, they aren't luke warm on Pat. AKME is really high on Pat. All evidence supports this, but in the end, it really doesn't matter, because...



Which gets back to the irrelevant part of this argument:
Is AKME stupid for misevaluating Pat and thinking he's way better than he is?
Is AKME stupid for misevaluating the FA market and pre-emptively vastly overpaying him?
Is AKME stupid for his holistic view of how to handle middling FAs?

I think the answer is yes to all 3, you think the answers is yes to the bottom two only. It really doesn't matter all that much why they consistently make bad decisions as long as they continue to do it.

Yeah, I don't know what else to say to clarify my point, which was simply that I don't think they've loved Patrick since his rookie year. Benching him in each of the last 3 seasons, giving him a flat contract that they're open to getting out of immediately when it became possible last week, and not scheming to get him a larger offensive role, etc is the evidence I see for this.

This is insanity. Truly, it is. You're the only person in the world with that opinion, so congrats on that.

Either address the content of my point or be quiet. It's rude and childish.

Why would anyone think that a player is loved and thought of very highly by his team when instead of the max contract, consistent starting role and plenty of shot opportunities that comes with being valued in that way, he gets a contract for a small fraction of the max, has been benched in each of the last 3 seasons (every season of his career that we were trying to actually win), and 5th option status????

[dougthonus]

Why would anyone think that a player is loved and thought of very highly by his team when instead of the max contract, consistent starting role and plenty of shot opportunities that comes with being valued in that way, he gets a contract for a small fraction of the max, has been benched in each of the last 3 seasons (every season of his career that we were trying to actually win), and 5th option status????

Love is relative to worth:

1: They have given him more minutes than he deserves every year by merit, probably by 2x
2: They have never brought in anyone to compete with him and relied on him stepping up every year
3: They offered him a 5 year deal at peak market value without forcing him to negotiate, and even gave him a PO, and are the only team to do so for such a player of his caliber in the past 3 seasons.
4: They gave him that deal even though he was presently injured and likely would not have drawn much interest from other teams
5: Their words describing him have been overly positive relative to his merits for his entire career

In their dollars, playing time, and words, they have all shown they love Patrick Williams more than his ability deserves.

[League Circles]

Why would anyone think that a player is loved and thought of very highly by his team when instead of the max contract, consistent starting role and plenty of shot opportunities that comes with being valued in that way, he gets a contract for a small fraction of the max, has been benched in each of the last 3 seasons (every season of his career that we were trying to actually win), and 5th option status????

Love is relative to worth:

1: They have given him more minutes than he deserves every year by merit, probably by 2x
2: They have never brought in anyone to compete with him and relied on him stepping up every year
3: They offered him a 5 year deal at peak market value without forcing him to negotiate, and even gave him a PO, and are the only team to do so for such a player of his caliber in the past 3 seasons.
4: They gave him that deal even though he was presently injured and likely would not have drawn much interest from other teams
5: Their words describing him have been overly positive relative to his merits for his entire career

In their dollars, playing time, and words, they have all shown they love Patrick Williams more than his ability deserves.

1. Not sure I agree he's got double the minutes he deserves, but they also don't love Zach or Vuc despite in the past doing things that would suggest they did.
2. Hard to understand how Demar wasn't a direct competitor with Patrick. Yeah they ended up playing together, but they're both basically combo forwards with similar bodies. Patrick primarily played SF his rookie year I think, so the competition was that much more obvious at the most relevant time.
3. Not sure why you don't think he had to negotiate. I think it's highly likely his agent was asking for a better deal than he got.
4. Agreed - we agree Patrick's contract was a big mistake. Not sure how much more clear I can make that.
5. The overwhelming majority of nba players at all times for all teams are spoken of positively by their teams.

I agree they've loved him more than his ability deserves. But they still, obviously, don't love him. If they loved him, they wouldn't have benched him each of the last three years, the coach wouldn't be criticizing him when answering reporters questions, he'd have played as at least a 3rd or 4th option at some point instead of the 5th, and his contract would probably be even worse, and they wouldn't be trying to IMMEDIATELY trade him now that he's eligible for the first time in over a year effectively.

I guess this is just semantics. I don't think the Bulls love any of their players other than maybe Matas.

They obviously don't love ("think super highly of"):

Demar
Zach
Vuc
Caruso
Giddey


I suppose it's possible they "love" Smith, Coby or Ayo.

To be clear, I'm being critical of them here. They're way too attached to guys that they transparently aren't all that high on. Too fixated on "asset management" and "total talent resources".

[GoBlue72391]

Yeah, I don't know what else to say to clarify my point, which was simply that I don't think they've loved Patrick since his rookie year. Benching him in each of the last 3 seasons, giving him a flat contract that they're open to getting out of immediately when it became possible last week, and not scheming to get him a larger offensive role, etc is the evidence I see for this.

This is insanity. Truly, it is. You're the only person in the world with that opinion, so congrats on that.

Either address the content of my point or be quiet. It's rude and childish.

Why would anyone think that a player is loved and thought of very highly by his team when instead of the max contract, consistent starting role and plenty of shot opportunities that comes with being valued in that way, he gets a contract for a small fraction of the max, has been benched in each of the last 3 seasons (every season of his career that we were trying to actually win), and 5th option status????

I don't think it's necessary. Other people have already mentioned them and it's been discussed to death. You know what evidence suggests the FO loves him, or at least did until recently. Why do you want me to repeat something you've already read multiple times?

I'll humor you:
- overdrafted him at 4
- shipped off Lauri and others to open up the position for him
- gifted him a starting spot for 5 years in a row
- never brought in any competition for him aside from minimum-salary vets (who all thoroughly outplayed him)
- given him far more minutes than he's ever deserved, over more deserving players
- blathered on and on through the media, coaches, and veteran players that he's going to be a star
- multiple reports at the past few trade deadlines that the FO considered him "untouchable"
- signed him to a long and overpaid contract with a player option when they could have had him for less money and less length (though you bizarrely think this somehow suggests the opposite)

Probably even more evidence that I'm forgetting, too.

Do you think the only way that AKME could prove they love him is if they signed him to a MAX CONTRACT? That's crazy, even they're not that dumb. Teams can love players without giving them max contracts or 1st option touches.

GMs don't sign players they're lukewarm about to maximum length contracts with player options for far more money than they're worth, dude. Coby and Ayo got 3-year contracts and Pat should have as well.

Any GM who has been "lukewarm" on him since his rookie season would have given up and moved on from him a long time ago. A team that is lukewarm on a player doesn't give him 9 years worth of contracts. I don't care about your bizarre "Oh well a 3 and 4-year contract is basically the same thing as a 5-year contract." No. No it's not. Maybe to you it is, but that doesn't matter.

The benchings were an attempt to light a fire under him, and they still signed him to that contract after multiple benchings so obviously it didn't impact their view of him too much.

It makes zero sense how you can look at all this and be like "Oh no, see you guys are wrong! All this evidence actually means they don't like him! Duh!"

[dougthonus]

1. Not sure I agree he's got double the minutes he deserves, but they also don't love Zach or Vuc despite in the past doing things that would suggest they did.

They obviously love Vuc a ridiculous amount relative to his worth too. Zach hasn't ever gotten more playing time than his worth.

2. Hard to understand how Demar wasn't a direct competitor with Patrick. Yeah they ended up playing together, but they're both basically combo forwards with similar bodies. Patrick primarily played SF his rookie year I think, so the competition was that much more obvious at the most relevant time.

Why is it hard to understand that? Pat's minutes have never been impacted by DeMar, nor is his role impacted by DeMar.

3. Not sure why you don't think he had to negotiate. I think it's highly likely his agent was asking for a better deal than he got.

What his agent asks for is irrelevant. We paid him way more than his play warranted or comparable players were offered, and no one else was going to offer him that deal.

4. Agreed - we agree Patrick's contract was a big mistake. Not sure how much more clear I can make that.

I think maybe a disagreement here is in semantics. I think in basketball parlance, the term "love" can be substituted with "overvalued". We significantly overvalued Patrick Williams. I think that is what people mean when we say we love him. An that seems very true to me.

5. The overwhelming majority of nba players at all times for all teams are spoken of positively by their teams.

Probably fair.

I agree they've loved him more than his ability deserves. But they still, obviously, don't love him. If they loved him, they wouldn't have benched him each of the last three years, the coach wouldn't be criticizing him when answering reporters questions, he'd have played as at least a 3rd or 4th option at some point instead of the 5th, and his contract would probably be even worse, and they wouldn't be trying to IMMEDIATELY trade him now that he's eligible for the first time in over a year effectively.

I disagree with all those things except perhaps now their opinion is changed, and they finally realize, mid way through year 5 that their opinion was stupid the entire time. But they only ever benched him for short stretches and still played him over way better options and still continue to do so today, so that still shows they overvalue him. The coach has finally made some criticisms that should have been made long long ago, but even those are still couched in compliments and hope for the future (though that's also just the way Donovan speaks about everyone).

I guess this is just semantics. I don't think the Bulls love any of their players other than maybe Matas.

They obviously don't love ("think super highly of"):

Demar
Zach
Vuc
Caruso
Giddey


I suppose it's possible they "love" Smith, Coby or Ayo.

To be clear, I'm being critical of them here. They're way too attached to guys that they transparently aren't all that high on. Too fixated on "asset management" and "total talent resources".

I agree. I think your definition of "love" is different than how other people would use the term in this context.

[eierluke]

Horrible to waste draft a #4 pick on a college 6th man.
But still I don't want the gm get fired who drafted P.Williams, I want the gm to get fired who extended a minimum contract player to 5 years 90 mio.