Retro Player of the Year 2007-08 UPDATE — Lebron James

[lessthanjake]

Not a voter, but as more time passes by, I think Kobe peaked in 2008.

His run in the playoffs prior to Boston was actually incredible. Didn't appreciate it until a while ago.

Honestly, I think Kobe 2006-2010 was just a very impressive five-year span. He was not very good in any of the three Finals he played in those years, but was very impressive otherwise in the playoffs IMO. Meanwhile, I thought that even making the playoffs with those 2006 and 2007 teams was impressive, while obviously in the subsequent three years he led the Lakers to some great regular seasons (particularly in 2008 and 2009). It’s this span that really cements him having a relatively high ranking for me in terms of all-time ranking (I have him just outside my top 10). I was someone who always thought he was overrated, but he changed my mind a good bit during this time period.

I'm a little perplexed why that 5 yr period did much to change your opinion on Kobe tbh. 06-07 really did nothing to change my opinion of him. It was just Kobe turning up his shot volume as much as he could(at the expense of defense which would be expected) on weak teams, not really doing much in the playoffs outside of nearly upsetting the Suns before the infamous game 7 where he refused to shoot. 08 showed he could actually lead a contender without Shaq so that was something though the 40 pt loss in game 6 to lose the finals again made me still question his leadership to some degree. Keeping in mind that the Lakers were sort of favored going into those finals. The MVP was more of a career achievement award than anything else I think. Which leads to 09/10 which is where he proved he could get it done as the best player and have a couple of very good to great finals.
So for that I give him credit but if anything changed my opinion on him it would just be those last two years.

I found it impressive that he was able to make the playoffs at all on those 2006 and 2007 teams. Those rosters were really bad. Not very many players in history could’ve made the playoffs with them IMO. And obviously they lost in the first round both years, but they were able to scare a much better team.

And then 2008 to 2010 showed he could lead extremely good teams and win titles with them. That was actually not at all obvious before that. And while he had a very well-constructed team and Gasol was a very good player, I didn’t regard those Lakers teams as being particularly talented as championship teams go. Prior to it actually happening, if you’d told me the team Kobe would have and asked me what I thought would happen, I would not have guessed they’d win a title, and certainly not two titles and a finals appearance. Those Lakers definitely over-performed compared to what I thought Kobe was capable of.

[lessthanjake]

The lakers were in the first seed before the Gasol trade...Bynum was a good young player at this time but he was not a all-star too.Kwayne Brown was just a dumpster fire before the Gasol trade.....Maybe Kobe was not the best player but not in the top 5?...Are you kidding me!

And if they'd kept playing at that pace by the end of the year they'd have been the 7th seed in the West.

This is actually not true. You’re getting them at 7th by having them behind themselves, which is obviously impossible. If they’d kept winning at their non-Gasol pace, then they’d have been 6th seed in the West. And even that is a pretty misleading point, because they’d also have been just 2 to 3 games behind 1st place. In other words, if they had not gotten Gasol, we have every reason to think they’d have still been in the hunt for the 1st seed.

[One_and_Done]

They'd be 6th then. Obviously if they get Pau that changes everything.

[lessthanjake]

They'd be 6th then. Obviously if they get Pau that changes everything.

I think winning at a 52-54 win pace (and a +5.3 net rating) with that team without Gasol is really impressive. And that’s especially true given that they weren’t all that healthy (Bynum missed a lot of time, for instance).

[One_and_Done]

They'd be 6th then. Obviously if they get Pau that changes everything.

I think winning at a 52-54 win pace (and a +5.3 net rating) with that team without Gasol is really impressive. And that’s especially true given that they weren’t all that healthy (Bynum missed a lot of time, for instance).

Not really, because they only win that much if Bynum stays healthy. They were 6-5 without him before Pau arrived. Bynum's impact is very underrated, though not surprisingly.

It's not unimpressive, it's just not impressive compared to the other guys in consideration here. Even Dwight at 22 led the Magic to a 52 win season this year, and 59 the following year, with Hedo, Shard, Jameer, and [insert random starter here].

[ceoofkobefans]

They'd be 6th then. Obviously if they get Pau that changes everything.

I think winning at a 52-54 win pace (and a +5.3 net rating) with that team without Gasol is really impressive. And that’s especially true given that they weren’t all that healthy (Bynum missed a lot of time, for instance).

Not really, because they only win that much if Bynum stays healthy. They were 6-5 without him before Pau arrived. Bynum's impact is very underrated, though not surprisingly.

It's not unimpressive, it's just not impressive compared to the other guys in consideration here. Even Dwight at 22 led the Magic to a 52 win season this year, and 59 the following year, with Hedo, Shard, Jameer, and [insert random starter here].

the lakers went 11-9 without bynum and pau which is only a 45 Win Pace but they had a +3.6 NRTG which is equivalent to a 52-30 record and a +4 SRS which is equivalent to 53-29 record. what makes this more impressive is that in these games kwame missed 12 of them (played in 8 of the 9 games before the trade) and the lakers actually performed better in the 12 games without all 3 going 8-4 (55 win pace) a +5.7 NRTG (57 win pace) and a +5.5 SRS which is the same win pace and that is primarily with a starting lineup of Derek Fisher Lamar Odom Vladimir Radmanovic and Rony Turiaf

Maybe that Bean guy was pretty good idk

[Doug_12]

They'd be 6th then. Obviously if they get Pau that changes everything.

I think winning at a 52-54 win pace (and a +5.3 net rating) with that team without Gasol is really impressive. And that’s especially true given that they weren’t all that healthy (Bynum missed a lot of time, for instance).

Not really, because they only win that much if Bynum stays healthy. They were 6-5 without him before Pau arrived. Bynum's impact is very underrated, though not surprisingly.

It's not unimpressive, it's just not impressive compared to the other guys in consideration here. Even Dwight at 22 led the Magic to a 52 win season this year, and 59 the following year, with Hedo, Shard, Jameer, and [insert random starter here].

To be fair, we also have to acknowledge, that when Bynum injured, there was actually no competent center on that team. Bynum's impact look huge, mostly because his backups were really bad. I recall picking up DJ Mbenga (who was then waived by the Warriors), and he looked amazing vs Kwame. And Mbenga was really just a big, tough guy without any skill. Compared to them, Bynum was like peak Shaq, but in reality, he was just a productive center, which was available for every playoff team in the league.

[Djoker]

People sometimes act like the 2008 Lakers were some super stacked team. They started Fisher who was average and Radmanovic who was below average. Odom is also just an above average starter/sub all-star and the Lakers' depth was very weak down the stretch with Bynum/Ariza injured. They greatly overachieved to me. This roster doesn't scream like a 66-win team which is how they played after the Gasol trade. Before the trade, the team was slightly better than 2006 and 2007 because of the growth of Bynum but still miraculous Kobe had them playing like a 53-win team.

[Paulluxx9000]

Lebron
KG
Kobe
CP3
Dirk
And this is the year he reaches his own planet. In a year he’ll go somewhere historically only towering giants have reached.

Spoiler:

Finally the kid from Akron. Chasing Jordan, but in Magic’s mold:

Over the previous years the offense goes from Kareem-centric to Magic-centric. A lot of people lament Magic not being given the reigns earlier but it’s not so easy. Prime Kareem completely invalidates high-level defense if you use him right.(and who was using him correctly…) Even now he is a huge headache for opposing teams but, you know who also invalidates high-level defense entirely? Magic.
It’s easy to just look at the assists but if you go by the assists Isiah isn’t that far off. Here’s what Magic has that Isiah doesn’t. You have 5 guys there to make sure Magic or one of his teammates doesn’t score. But if there’s just a sliver of daylight. Just a few guys ever so slightly overextended…Magic might just render all 5 of those defenders moot in a flash. He has unbelievable ball control, he’s big and powerful at the basket, he uses his eyes better than anyone, and has a cannon for an arm. He can defeat your defense basically himself. He might not end the possession with a tough contested fadeaway, but he’ll do it his way. And there’s only one other guy you could ever say that about. And he isn’t going to be on anyone’s ballot until 2004.(unless you’re really into him and are a “High school LeBron was the level of an NBA All-Star” (real people that exist))
Finally, his brain. His advanced stats are ridiculous But that doesn’t tell you how someone makes his teammates better. Magic’s impact is ridiculous. Magic is the smartest player on the court every time he steps on it(yes, smarter than Bird). He knows where he needs to go and where you need to go and he’ll make sure you and him both go where you need to go at the time and place you both need to be there. And he does that better than anyone else and everyone who comes after, probably even including that 2004 guy(who’s better at a couple other things).
Is his team good? Yes. Is Kareem amazing? Definitely. But we seem him still doing all this with explicitly fine and not Kareem teammates when he crosses 30

Great stats. Great tape. Undeniable impact. You play to win and no one ever makes you win like him (Russell yes). But what’s been lost to time is the pressure. Not from just being so incredibly good, but because there was a type of good many wanted him to be:
https://youtu.be/mZE4NuH_uuA?t=271
One of the things that always rubbed me wrong is how people covered and still cover Lebron pre-miami. I think it's obvious for anyone who paid attention he was already one of the smartest players ever.
Yet many say things like "he didn't know how to win" (Lebron himself caved in to this one unfortunately), "he didn't know how to close", "he wasn't a game manager yet", while lambsting his almost always correct decision-making as soft, weak, or not "alpha"
And then I came across this; one of the most absurd collection of interview questions in history aimed at any basketball player from one of the most respected and, at least by reputation, class personified, Bob Costas.
We talk about what Russell and Kareem faced, but I don't know I've seen this seriously discussed with Lebron: How much did race factor into how Lebron was and still is covered. Times 100 when we speak of the part of his career before his first ring.
Many hate how he took control of his own future. How he took control of his teams. How he took control of offensive possessions. How he’s trying to take control of endless ridiculous narratives written up exclusively for him and him alone. I applaud it. Invalidating opponent defense. Controlling opponent offense. That’s on film. But entering the most negative environment almost any player has ever entered with teammates and anchors alike chomping at Hummers and Tatoos to see him fail; and forcing all of them to shut up? Chosen one indeed.
20 years old and he already has Cleveland winning despite it all. And he’s just getting started. 20 years later and he’s not even finished.[/quote]
The playmaking was mostly there already but now the other shoe drops. Ontop of making like Magic, he’s defending like Pippen even with a shaky jumper that type of combination that can make you the best player in the league. You need to think of him inside. He’s not AK47 but he will spend stretches of games on the backline and makes would be dunkers and slashers second-guess themselves and try a different path. He’s an active and disciplined man defender running 1 through 4 and occasionally even 5s. He’s a bit gambly to start the year but as the season progresses you see all the components for the two way monster he’s about to become. Poised but powerful. Disciplined but dynamic His shooting isn’t there for the final hurdle but he finds other ways to keep his team in. Tripled and quadrupled and still more often than not he finds the right man at the right spot at breakneck speed. Add in the fear he’s putting in manu and parker at his basket and you get a massively overmatched cleveland team lottery-level cast staying right there every game. They probably win a couple if Mike Brown isn’t trying to use Lebron like Jordan. Waiting and cutting in the corner where the Spurs can afford to leave one man instead of three or four while Gibson brings it up with his broken foot again and again for dinosaur offense. Or putting Gibson on Parker or tanking their offense with Snow when they have someone who can handle him nearly on his lonesome. It wasn’t an all powerful performance and there are plenty of things to work on. But for anyone who really watched there was lots to praise. And don’t get me started how he got there 27 straight vs Detroit. But that’s not the point. The Cavs got where they got on great defense and under the noses of alot of people who make it all about deflections and steals. A really great attacker became a really great defender.

The lazy will look at his scoring and say he was bad against Boston. They’ll ignore injuries and hapless support (not one win when he didn’t grace the court) and say he didn’t win enough. But those watching really watching will see a forward making chances out of nothing in bunches and patrolling his basket from the rim and from the key and from the paint and at the elbow making everyone from 1 to 5 on Boston think a little different about what they were going to do in possession after possession after possession. And then in the last 3 games the offense comes alive. Lebron becomes Atlas and if not for Paul pierce becoming saiyan and one of the best defenses in modernity Lebron might have went and won a title then and there with little more than a few defenders he helped make look much better than they really were. He was an all-time great already but now you see the outline of something even better, much better. With respect to Kobe and KG and the many fine players who shared the league it’s just not close. He scores with anyone and others better like anyone and can defend like anyone who isn’t pushing 7 feet inside out and in between. Just the best.
Garnett wins. Later is better than never and with his one and only real ticket to a title the Garnett didn’t blink.

Spoiler:

He’s mostly there now. Kevin Garnett. Where Duncan is strong, he’s nimble. Duncan waits, he traverses. A versatile offensive piece, hitting jumpers, can handle the ball, can post, and of the bigs can pass it the best. A foreshadowing of the Giannis/AD types. He’s not quite there, no one is, but at this point in league history he was a unicorn. Maybe a little more power would have done him better in the playoffs, but he mostly delivered anyway. I will not fault someone for the failures of others.

Garnett is the best clear and should be uncontested on a champion the one time he has a good team. Will this shut everyone up? No. But it should. The league’s best defender and a leading scorer and playmaker on the leading team. Outplayed peak Kobe in the finals too while not anything close to what he was as Minnesota wasted him. Anything is possible with a big ticket. If his legs could have just lasted two more years.
Bryant’s back

Spoiler:

Kobe’s a superstar though he doesn’t play as super as last time. He can roam, he can drive, he can dunk (not like MJ). He doesn’t have the size to get by or through traffic like a Lebron, or even just get by like Jordan. But he’s smart, precise with his moves, and is a truly versatile piece able to do everything well and, if he has to face the traffic, he can shoot over it as well as nearly anyone. He would have been incredible with illegal defense, but he’s good enough now. There is no three-peat without Mamba.

He was well and truly poor in a finals facing Boston and Garnett’s awesome defense but it’s silly to me to let one series make three other series and a regular-season meaningless. Kobe was phenomenal for three rounds including the total domination of Duncan and his Spurs. He was great in a regular season full of turnover. Kobe is not unstoppable like Boston showed in this finals and another but he’s great all the same.
Chris Paul comes good. He doesn’t push and press a defense’s buttons like Nash and he’s not yet the small quarterback proving brain can beat brawn on defense. But he score efficiently from anywhere from the basket to the top of the key and he can spot and hit gaps with accuracy and precision near unmatched. He gets slower but he also gets smarter. Injury prone but an incredible talent already puting on shows.
Dirk has a great year. His team was hot ass and he brought them to 51 wins.

Spoiler:

Dallas has it’s man. Dirk Nowitski is tall and strong and can shoot incredibly well. Monstrous in the post efficient at the hole unrivalled in-between and accurate from deep. Dirk was a do-it-all at delivering baskets. His passing is just okay but just okay was enough with how scary defenses and centers found Dirk’s arsenal. You can’t confuse him with some incredible defender but he’s okay there too. He’s still figuring things out now but the full package is fantastic and it’s approaching fast.

[capfan33]

1. Kobe- weird year where no one really stands out in particular. Giving an ever so slight edge to Kobe because of how perilously close he came to winning, how good the Lakers were despite injuries, and an excellent postseason run up until the finals.
2. Lebron- in a vacuum I think he’s already prob better than Kobe and I think played as well if not a bit better against Boston. Ultimately however Kobe making it farther and having the better postseason series of the two gives him the edge.
3. KG- transformed Boston into a powerhouse and anchored an innovative defense that would change how defense was played. Putting him 3rd largely because of postseason underperformance, and a relatively lower impact due to minutes and all the help he had.
4. CP3- comes into his own with an excellent regular season effort carrying the Pelicans m culminating in a heroic effort against the Spurs.
5. Duncan- close between him and Dirk but ultimately he made it much further. dirk this year was in sort of a transition phase as he reeled from the previous years upset and retooled his offense to be more resilient and even on the decline Duncan still to me seems to be the most deserving of 5.

[One_and_Done]

1. Kobe- weird year where no one really stands out in particular. Giving an ever so slight edge to Kobe because of how perilously close he came to winning, how good the Lakers were despite injuries, and an excellent postseason run up until the finals.
2. Lebron- in a vacuum I think he’s already prob better than Kobe and I think played as well if not a bit better against Boston. Ultimately however Kobe making it farther and having the better postseason series of the two gives him the edge.
3. KG- transformed Boston into a powerhouse and anchored an innovative defense that would change how defense was played. Putting him 3rd largely because of postseason underperformance, and a relatively lower impact due to minutes and all the help he had.
4. CP3- comes into his own with an excellent regular season effort carrying the Pelicans m culminating in a heroic effort against the Spurs.
5. Duncan- close between him and Dirk but ultimately he made it much further. dirk this year was in sort of a transition phase as he reeled from the previous years upset and retooled his offense to be more resilient and even on the decline Duncan still to me seems to be the most deserving of 5.

I've got to say, it feels like Lebron is being punished for having bad team mates here.

[Homer38]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Kobe Bryant - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. MVP. Lakers played like a 53-win team (+4.1 SRS) before the Gasol trade and then at a whopping 66-win pace (+9.7 SRS) after the trade. Kobe was the best player on the team who both carried a scoring load and facilitated and in turn led a dominant +5.5 rORtg. His PS run through the Western Conference was stuff of legend dominating in three consecutive series against good teams with LA posting a +6.8 rORtg. In the Finals he did struggle a bit which opens the door for others. Kobe shot inefficiently at -0.3 rTS against the Celtics but that isn't horrible. It's his supporting cast that struggled a lot more with Gasol playing far below his ability. The injuries to Bynum and Ariza especially hurt the Lakers given the Celtics' depth and physicality. Averaged 28.3/6.3/5.4 on +3.6 rTS in the RS then 30.1/5.7/5.6 on +4.9 rTS in the PS.

2. Kevin Garnett- 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. DPOY. Best player on the best team in the league. Boston had a monster 65-win pace (+9.31 SRS) season largely on the back of KG's dominant defense. Not only was he the principal paint protector but his horizontal defense game with crisp rotations and backline communication made them at times impregnable on that end posting a historic -8.6 rDRtg in the RS. All this while KG was also an all-star caliber player on offense. In the PS, Boston regressed quite a bit defensively with -5.7 rDRtg but they improved slightly offensively. They took a while to get going in the PS suffering a serious scare against the Cavs in the 2nd round before turning it on against the Pistons and Lakers where they needed to be at their best. Pierce took the Finals MVP and was the go-to isolation scorer especially late in games but to me, KG was clearly the best player for the Celtics because of his two-way impact. Averaged 18.8/9.2/3.4 on +4.8 rTS in the RS then 20.4/10.5/3.3 on +1.1 rTS in the PS.

3. Chris Paul - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. He carried a decent (wouldn't even say good) roster to 57-win pace (+5.46 SRS) in the RS so he has an MVP case. In the PS, he played really well even though they lost to the Spurs. +4.0 rORtg in the RS and +7.8 rORtg in the PS is fantastic with that cast. The little guard was also a disruptive defensive player. Honestly in a vacuum, I think he can be argued as the best player in the NBA this season. That's how good he was and this is his peak season for me. Averaged 21.1/4.0/11.6 on +3.6 rTS in the RS then 24.1/4.9/11.3 on +4.5 rTS in the PS.

4. Lebron James - 1st Team All-NBA. Though somewhat excusable due to various injuries, the Cavs had a rather poor RS playing at a 39-win pace (-0.53 SRS) with a -1.5 rORtg. LBJ himself had a strong season statistically but this felt like a disappointment compared to 2006 and 2007. His PS was also a mixed bag with a strong Wizards series and then a memorable Game 7 against Boston but he also had several really poor games in the Boston series. His series averages vs. the Celtics were 26.7/6.4/7.6 on -2.8 rTS with 5.3 topg. Thanks to defense (+0.8 rORtg, -7.8 rDRtg), the underdog Cavs thrived in the second season and pushed the C's to the brink and overcame those poor performances. At the end of the day, his RS wasn't as good as the three men in front of him and he didn't make up any ground in the PS. Averaged 30.0/7.9/7.2 on +2.8 rTS in the RS then 28.2/7.8/7.6 on -1.1 rTS in the PS.

5. Tim Duncan - 2nd Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Timmy was still a two-way force but starting to fade and not at his best any more. The Spurs were still a very good team until they ran into a better Lakers team that had their way. Duncan was poor in terms of scoring efficiency in the PS which limits him to barely making the ballot. Push comes to shove, I give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of impact over Dirk/Nash/Deron because of his defense. Averaged 19.3/11.3/2.8 on +0.6 rTS in the RS and 20.2/14.5/3.3 on +4.2 rTS in the RS.

OPOY

1. Kobe Bryant - Great scorer and solid facilitator.

2. Chris Paul - Excellent engine on offense with a combo of scoring and playmaking. Very conservative playmaker and composed which is rare for a young PG.

3. Lebron James - Good scorer and playmaker. Team offensive results subpar even for a weak roster.

DPOY

1. Kevin Garnett - 1st Team All-Defense. DPOY. Anchor on a historically great -8.6 rDRtg Boston defense. Superb D in the PS as well.

2. Tim Duncan - 1st Team All-Defense. Anchor on a great -5.7 rDRtg Spurs defense.

3. Dwight Howard - 2nd Team All-Defense. Still young but super athletic. Fantastic rim protector and rebounder but reads still not on the level of the veteran ahead of him. Magic had a -2.0 rDRtg defense.

I remember in 2008 when LeBron was out for 5 games in a row and the Cavs struggled big time to score 80 points in a game.It was brutal.I don't disagree much with putting LBJ 4th, but the 39 wins pace was hugely due to the stretch he was out for 5 games in november or early december

[One_and_Done]

Cavs played at a 49 win pace with Lebron, and a 0 win pace without. They were 0-7 without him, which included losses to the Raptors by 9, the Nets by 21, and the Wizards by 19. They had losses to the Bobcats and the 20 win Sonics. Those were not good teams.

[Djoker]

1. Kobe- weird year where no one really stands out in particular. Giving an ever so slight edge to Kobe because of how perilously close he came to winning, how good the Lakers were despite injuries, and an excellent postseason run up until the finals.
2. Lebron- in a vacuum I think he’s already prob better than Kobe and I think played as well if not a bit better against Boston. Ultimately however Kobe making it farther and having the better postseason series of the two gives him the edge.
3. KG- transformed Boston into a powerhouse and anchored an innovative defense that would change how defense was played. Putting him 3rd largely because of postseason underperformance, and a relatively lower impact due to minutes and all the help he had.
4. CP3- comes into his own with an excellent regular season effort carrying the Pelicans m culminating in a heroic effort against the Spurs.
5. Duncan- close between him and Dirk but ultimately he made it much further. dirk this year was in sort of a transition phase as he reeled from the previous years upset and retooled his offense to be more resilient and even on the decline Duncan still to me seems to be the most deserving of 5.

I've got to say, it feels like Lebron is being punished for having bad team mates here.

You're only looking at offensive help. Lebron had tremendous defensive help in 2008. Big Ben, Varejao, Big Z, Joe Smith, Delonte... Their playoff defense was an unreal -7.6 rDRtg and the primary reason they even pushed the Celtics.

[lessthanjake]

Cavs played at a 49 win pace with Lebron, and a 0 win pace without. They were 0-7 without him, which included losses to the Raptors by 9, the Nets by 21, and the Wizards by 19. They had losses to the Bobcats and the 20 win Sonics. Those were not good teams.

They were also 6-1 without LeBron the prior two years. These are just small samples (and one of those losses this year was an end-of-season game the team didn’t care about).

That said, I do think the 49-win pace with LeBron is relevant. It was still only a +0.75 net rating team in games with LeBron though, so the pace that they won overstates things. Is getting a +0.75 net rating, 49-win pace out of the 2008 Cavaliers more impressive than getting a +5.3 net rating, 53-win pace out of the 2008 Lakers without Pau? I suppose it’s not entirely obvious (especially where the gap in net rating and gap in win pace are meaningfully different), but given the huge net rating difference there and my view of the quality of the Lakers roster, I personally would say getting that out of the Lakers was more impressive. That said, even if someone thought getting that out of the Cavs was more impressive (which is a plausible conclusion, particularly given the win pace not being very different), Kobe showed out much more in these playoffs than LeBron did. Kobe was fantastic in his western conference run and LeBron just doesn’t have an analogue to that. The weakness in Kobe’s case is struggling against the Celtics, but LeBron definitely struggled against them too, so that basically cancels out.

And then we just get to the fact that POY does relate to a player’s significance in the given year, and getting your team to the Finals is simply more significant than going out in the second round—this sort of thing can sometimes operate in favor of players who have better teams, but I do think it’s part of the POY equation, though I know you disagree with that approach and that’s fine.

[Homer38]

1. Kobe- weird year where no one really stands out in particular. Giving an ever so slight edge to Kobe because of how perilously close he came to winning, how good the Lakers were despite injuries, and an excellent postseason run up until the finals.
2. Lebron- in a vacuum I think he’s already prob better than Kobe and I think played as well if not a bit better against Boston. Ultimately however Kobe making it farther and having the better postseason series of the two gives him the edge.
3. KG- transformed Boston into a powerhouse and anchored an innovative defense that would change how defense was played. Putting him 3rd largely because of postseason underperformance, and a relatively lower impact due to minutes and all the help he had.
4. CP3- comes into his own with an excellent regular season effort carrying the Pelicans m culminating in a heroic effort against the Spurs.
5. Duncan- close between him and Dirk but ultimately he made it much further. dirk this year was in sort of a transition phase as he reeled from the previous years upset and retooled his offense to be more resilient and even on the decline Duncan still to me seems to be the most deserving of 5.

I've got to say, it feels like Lebron is being punished for having bad team mates here.

You're only looking at offensive help. Lebron had tremendous defensive help in 2008. Big Ben, Varejao, Big Z, Joe Smith, Delonte... Their playoff defense was an unreal -7.6 rDRtg and the primary reason they even pushed the Celtics.

what about the supporting cast on offense during the season?

[ceoofkobefans]

POY

1. Kobe Bryant

Kobe has reached his apex in 2008 and is finally able to balance both ends of the floor better than he did the last 3 years (getting helped out by having a legitimate PG to take off some of the offensive load for him) and is one of the best offensive players this game has ever seen leading the lakers to a 53 win pace by record and 56 win pace by NRTG before they traded for Pau Gasol, and a 67 win pace by record and 70 win pace by NRTG after trading for Pau Gasol, and has an all time PO performance to lead the Lakers to the finals where they lose in 6 to one of the best teams in nba history, in boston.

2. Chris Paul

This was tight between LeBron and CP3, but theyre pretty similar in the RS, but I'm giving CP3 the edge for the PO. He does have a very good team *and better than LeBron does* but he also plays very well and lead the best PS Offense. Think this can go either way but I'm giving Cp3 a slight edge

3. LeBron James

4. Kevin Garnett

KG is getting a lot of love for being the best player on the best team but I don't really see what puts him over cp3 bron or especially Kobe, yes he is improved from the previous few years where he was rotting on terrible teams, but He's not improved enough to put him at that level. Yes the Celtics are an all time great team but they also had Paul Pierce and Ray Allen who are all nba + level players and Rajon Rondo who was an all star ish level point guard. KG missed 11 games in 2008 where the celtics had a 9-2 record (67 win pace), a +9.7 NRTG (66 win pace) and a +7 SRS (60 win pace) which is worse than with KG, but not very significantly (yes they have a very low SOS in these games but they went 2-2 against playoff teams beating the spurs 98-90, beating the mavs 96-90, and losing to the cavs 113-114 and to the Magic 93-96. KG also has a rather unimpressive PO where he again drops in post season play, and was arguably worse than pierce and allen in the finals (as well as Kobe). I think him being the best player on such an elite team is enough to get him into top tier consideration but the more you look into it the harder I think it is to argue him over the top 3 especially when LeBron and Kobe had been arguably (or just outright better) for the last couple years up to this point.

5. Dirk Nowitzki

Was very tough choosing a 5th between Dirk Duncan Nash Pierce and Wade. Wade's health is enough to keep him out, I question just how high Pierce's high end evaluation is to get over dirk or nash. Duncan is compelling but I'm just not confident enough in TD's O to put him over Dirk or Nash when they're so elite on that end (especially when Dirk isn't necessarily a negative on the defensive end). that leaves Nash and Dirk. They're fairly comparable in the RS both leading elite team's and Offenses with Dirk doing it through his scoring and off ball play, and Nash doing it through his playmaking and heliocentrism, and both are first round outs, with dirk losing in 5 to the hornets, and nash losing in 5 to the Spurs. Think what probably makes the difference for me is Dirk not only performing better in the PO, but Nash having a player perform pretty similarly to him in the PO on his own team (Amar'e Stoudemire who i considered for an HM spot but its a very strong year so tough to argue)

HMs: Steve Nash, Paul Pierce, Dwyane Wade

OPOY

1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBron James
3. Chris Paul
HMs: Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash

DPOY
1. Kevin Garnett
2. Tim Duncan
3. Ben Wallace
HMs: Shane Battier, Tyson Chandler

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1. Kobe- weird year where no one really stands out in particular. Giving an ever so slight edge to Kobe because of how perilously close he came to winning, how good the Lakers were despite injuries, and an excellent postseason run up until the finals.
2. Lebron- in a vacuum I think he’s already prob better than Kobe and I think played as well if not a bit better against Boston. Ultimately however Kobe making it farther and having the better postseason series of the two gives him the edge.
3. KG- transformed Boston into a powerhouse and anchored an innovative defense that would change how defense was played. Putting him 3rd largely because of postseason underperformance, and a relatively lower impact due to minutes and all the help he had.
4. CP3- comes into his own with an excellent regular season effort carrying the Pelicans m culminating in a heroic effort against the Spurs.
5. Duncan- close between him and Dirk but ultimately he made it much further. dirk this year was in sort of a transition phase as he reeled from the previous years upset and retooled his offense to be more resilient and even on the decline Duncan still to me seems to be the most deserving of 5.

I've got to say, it feels like Lebron is being punished for having bad team mates here.

I feel like losing to the Celtics in 7 is better than losing to them in 6. I don't want to get all tinfoil hat but it sorta seems like guys just want to make sure Kobe gets a POY.

[Narigo]

1.Kobe Bryant- The top 4 could go either way but I think Kobe has best case. He was Mostly responsible for the teams improvement as the Lakers were mostly the same team as last year sans Bynum improvement and Fisher addition pre Gasol trade

2. LeBron James- Almost there to best player in the league status.

3. Chris Paul- Might be his best statistical season and was probably best peak PG season since Magic Johnson in the NBA history at this point in time. Took the Spurs to seven games

4. Kevin Garnett- Best player on the Celtics. And was the best offensive option in the playoffs outscoring Paul Pierce and was the best defensive player in the league.

5. Dirk Nowitzki- Gets the nod over Duncan for me. Did better in the playoffs in a smaller sample. The Mavs did well in the first half of the season But the team somewhat tank their season mid season by trading for Jason Kidd as the team went 16-13 post Kidd trade. The trade will ultimately pay off in a couple of years

[One_and_Done]

1.Kobe Bryant- The top 4 could go either way but I think Kobe has best case. He was Mostly responsible for the teams improvement as the Lakers were mostly the same team as last year sans Bynum improvement and Fisher addition pre Gasol trade

2. LeBron James- Almost there to best player in the league status.

3. Chris Paul- Might be his best statistical season and was probably best peak PG season since Magic Johnson in the NBA history at this point in time. Took the Spurs to seven games

4. Kevin Garnett- Best player on the Celtics. And was the best offensive option in the playoffs outscoring Paul Pierce and was the best defensive player in the league.

5. Dirk Nowitzki- Gets the nod over Duncan for me. Did better in the playoffs in a smaller sample. Also the team somewhat collapsed mid season by trading for Jason Kidd as the team went 16-13 post Kidd trade.

How do you come to that conclusion? The Lakers were 11-9 without Bynum or Pau, which is in line with how Kobe did with the Lakers in 07. 06, and 05 (hovering just below or just above 500). It's also in line with Kobe's record in games without Shaq from 00-07, which is 135-137.

Evidence suggests without an all-star big or better next to him, he couldn't take the team much past 500. Then contrast that with the record of Lakers games with Shaq and without Kobe from 00-04 (they played at a 60+ win pace), with Pau in 08 (22-5), and with Bynum (24-11). Yet somehow your conclusion is their improvement was driven by Kobe. In games Kobe missed in 07, but Odom played, the Lakers were 2-2 and had a better offensive rating than in games with Kobe. Even in 05 the Lakers were little different with/without Kobe. 28-38 with, 6-10 without.

The empirical evidence all suggests Kobe is not much of a floor raiser... but his name is Kobe, so he gets votes anyway.