Sac/Spurs (Fox)

[Sactowndog]

It is unrealistic to think you are going to trade a guard, even as one as good as Fox, and receive an all-star forward. It just doesn’t happen.

Your options are likely Smith at Houston, Sochan at Spurs or you take a risk with Ingram at Pelicans. I don’t think it gets much better than that.

PG for SGA (not an all star at the time but definitely a high-level young prospect). Lots of picks here too, but SGA was defo the centerpiece.
Depending on whether you call him SG, Demar for Kawhi
Butler for Lavine (who was valued at that level at the time and played both PG and SG in Minny)
Porzingis to Dallas was a grab bag with DSJ and good picks (and Boston got him for Smart lol)

I mean, you can probably quibble about all of these, but the examples you chose are fairly cherry-picked (and I think Fox might command more than Murray or Holiday, but that's just me). It took me maybe 10 minutes to come up with those.

If you're married to the idea, fine, but it's weird to be like "this is the only way this can happen."

Really be best value was the Hali for Sabonis trade but that gets muddy because the Kings added Buddy. And Sabonis is an interesting player because half the league loves him and half the league hates him as an undersized 5 that can’t defend the rim.

[wemby]

I do think IF Fox requests a trade as already said it'll come down to Houston and the Spurs. Spurs I think would throw as already said NO Castle, but Sochan and Vassell, and 3 1st round picks for Fox and someone else. BUT that leaves Kings with only D.Carter at PG. So DeRozan would meec to be traded for a PG. What are some options?

Kings would play Monk at point guard. That is his true position in the NBA. He has incredible chemistry with Domas on the 2 man game.

Spurs here could offer to expand the trade to include Tre Jones for Lyles. Tre Jones is a young PG (just turned 25) who is a really good playmaker, with CP3 and Castle his role has diminished a lot and if you bring in Fox then there's no room for him which is a shame. It would really make sense for the Kings to take on his expiring 9 million contract for Lyles expiring 8 million, he can help them now and if they like him use his Bird rights to re-sign him for cheap without eating into their exceptions. Of course this would be in the case of a Fox trade, otherwise Spurs would have no interest in doing this as a standalone trade.

Overall I think the basic framework of Vassell + Sochan + Tre Jones + Zach Collins + pick/s (not 25 unprotected) for Fox + Lyles + Huerter really works all around, Unless the Rockets are willing to break the bank (they can) I think that's a really balanced offer for a player who is one year removed from free agency, doubtful to re-sign and looking for a max/super max.

[louc1970]

I would prefer SAS not put its leadership in the hands of Fox. He has had good teams and not produced anything.
Let the cake bake around Wemby and Castle.

[Andre Roberstan]

The three I posted were the three recent trades for a single point guard which is what Fox is. They were not cherry picked in the least. PG was a 6’8” wing which are much more rare and have a higher value.

Look up any actual trade for a point guard and they will all look the same. Kings fans are incorrect in thinking Fox as a point guard will draw the return of a wing. He simply will not. The league doesn’t function like that.

It’s also why I hate that Monte keeps stacking guards. They are harder to get value back in a trade.

"Cherry picked" is probably the wrong term, but it's a weird cutoff. It's not like the last 3 trades suddenly make everything that's come before invalid. And now you're saying "point" specifically.

Are big wings not considered forwards now? News to me.

I do think guards have less value than wings as a broad rule, but it's weird that you're being SO dogmatic about this.

[OGSactownballer]

It is unrealistic to think you are going to trade a guard, even as one as good as Fox, and receive an all-star forward. It just doesn’t happen.

Your options are likely Smith at Houston, Sochan at Spurs or you take a risk with Ingram at Pelicans. I don’t think it gets much better than that.

PG for SGA (not an all star at the time but definitely a high-level young prospect). Lots of picks here too, but SGA was defo the centerpiece.
Depending on whether you call him SG, Demar for Kawhi
Butler for Lavine (who was valued at that level at the time and played both PG and SG in Minny)
Porzingis to Dallas was a grab bag with DSJ and good picks (and Boston got him for Smart lol)

I mean, you can probably quibble about all of these, but the examples you chose are fairly cherry-picked (and I think Fox might command more than Murray or Holiday, but that's just me). It took me maybe 10 minutes to come up with those.

If you're married to the idea, fine, but it's weird to be like "this is the only way this can happen."

Really be best value was the Hali for Sabonis trade but that gets muddy because the Kings added Buddy. And Sabonis is an interesting player because half the league loves him and half the league hates him as an undersized 5 that can’t defend the rim.

So the inclusion of Buddy was a contract and attitude dump. Let’s not go for revisionist history here. That was the reason that the potential of Hali was being offered for an All NBA caliber center and one of the three best all around bigs in the game.

Let’s not get into the factor of Sabonis as a defender either. Not even going to try to claim “rim protector” because he isn’t particularly nor is his defensive game predicated upon that.

What he is is the league's best rebounder without question. He also is an excellent floor positional defender who consistently has top ten dfg% numbers. Keeping in mind that defensive possessions end when 1) the offensive team scores; 2) they turn the ball over; 3) the defensive team SECURES THE REBOUND. So the foolish misnomer that Sabonis is somehow inadequate or poor as a defender when he literally is THE BEST PLAYER IN THE NBA AT ENDING A DEFENSIVE POSSESSION is ludicrous and falls into the fantasy that shot blockers have that much impact in a game where teams now shoot fully fifty percent of their offensive possession shots from 23’+. It’s not reality. The defensive board ends the opponents possession and he is the best at doing that on top of being an excellent opponents fg% at the rim and in the paint defender. The numbers back it up.

[Ell Curry]

I could see this. Castle, Tre Jones, Zach Collins and #10 for Fox. Castle is good, but Fox's speed with Wemby's pick and pop game and general gravity might be near unstoppable. Vassell, the best shooter they can draft and their other passable shooters around them. CP3 running the 2nd unit. Someone like Portis or Nance Jr for the MLE to save Wemby some regular season pounding.

Wemby-MLE
Barnes-Sochan
Kelden-#10
Vassell-Champagnie
Fox-CP3

and the Kings have Huerter and Collins representing 36M or so in expiring money to move at some point next year with picks for a frontcourt guy.

Sabonis-Collins
Keegan-Lyles-
Demar-Huerter-#18
Ellis-Carter
Castle-Monk

for now and 2 of Collins/Lyles/Huerter + picks for a frontcourt guy of some kind if that's possible next year.

[Sactowndog]

The three I posted were the three recent trades for a single point guard which is what Fox is. They were not cherry picked in the least. PG was a 6’8” wing which are much more rare and have a higher value.

Look up any actual trade for a point guard and they will all look the same. Kings fans are incorrect in thinking Fox as a point guard will draw the return of a wing. He simply will not. The league doesn’t function like that.

It’s also why I hate that Monte keeps stacking guards. They are harder to get value back in a trade.

"Cherry picked" is probably the wrong term, but it's a weird cutoff. It's not like the last 3 trades suddenly make everything that's come before invalid. And now you're saying "point" specifically.

Are big wings not considered forwards now? News to me.

I do think guards have less value than wings as a broad rule, but it's weird that you're being SO dogmatic about this.

I picked 3 because 3 is the traditional standard for a comp.

How am I being dogmatic? I did a comp against 3 other point guards and you come back with a trade for a 6’8” forward as a counter example. Pick any other point guard who was traded and provide a comp.

Doing a forward comp for Fox like PG would be like a real estate guy give you a comp of a single family home with equivalent square footage to your Condo.

[Sactowndog]

PG for SGA (not an all star at the time but definitely a high-level young prospect). Lots of picks here too, but SGA was defo the centerpiece.
Depending on whether you call him SG, Demar for Kawhi
Butler for Lavine (who was valued at that level at the time and played both PG and SG in Minny)
Porzingis to Dallas was a grab bag with DSJ and good picks (and Boston got him for Smart lol)

I mean, you can probably quibble about all of these, but the examples you chose are fairly cherry-picked (and I think Fox might command more than Murray or Holiday, but that's just me). It took me maybe 10 minutes to come up with those.

If you're married to the idea, fine, but it's weird to be like "this is the only way this can happen."

Really be best value was the Hali for Sabonis trade but that gets muddy because the Kings added Buddy. And Sabonis is an interesting player because half the league loves him and half the league hates him as an undersized 5 that can’t defend the rim.

So the inclusion of Buddy was a contract and attitude dump. Let’s not go for revisionist history here. That was the reason that the potential of Hali was being offered for an All NBA caliber center and one of the three best all around bigs in the game.

Let’s not get into the factor of Sabonis as a defender either. Not even going to try to claim “rim protector” because he isn’t particularly nor is his defensive game predicated upon that.

What he is is the league's best rebounder without question. He also is an excellent floor positional defender who consistently has top ten dfg% numbers. Keeping in mind that defensive possessions end when 1) the offensive team scores; 2) they turn the ball over; 3) the defensive team SECURES THE REBOUND. So the foolish misnomer that Sabonis is somehow inadequate or poor as a defender when he literally is THE BEST PLAYER IN THE NBA AT ENDING A DEFENSIVE POSSESSION is ludicrous and falls into the fantasy that shot blockers have that much impact in a game where teams now shoot fully fifty percent of their offensive possession shots from 23’+. It’s not reality. The defensive board ends the opponents possession and he is the best at doing that on top of being an excellent opponents fg% at the rim and in the paint defender. The numbers back it up.

Let’s not derail this thread with a Sabonis discussion. My only point was he is one of the more controversial players in the NBA. That I think is pretty clear as some evaluators have him top 3 and others struggle to put him in the top 10.

[Andre Roberstan]

The three I posted were the three recent trades for a single point guard which is what Fox is. They were not cherry picked in the least. PG was a 6’8” wing which are much more rare and have a higher value.

Look up any actual trade for a point guard and they will all look the same. Kings fans are incorrect in thinking Fox as a point guard will draw the return of a wing. He simply will not. The league doesn’t function like that.

It’s also why I hate that Monte keeps stacking guards. They are harder to get value back in a trade.

"Cherry picked" is probably the wrong term, but it's a weird cutoff. It's not like the last 3 trades suddenly make everything that's come before invalid. And now you're saying "point" specifically.

Are big wings not considered forwards now? News to me.

I do think guards have less value than wings as a broad rule, but it's weird that you're being SO dogmatic about this.

I picked 3 because 3 is the traditional standard for a comp.

How am I being dogmatic? I did a comp against 3 other point guards and you come back with a trade for a 6’8” forward as a counter example. Pick any other point guard who was traded and provide a comp.

Doing a forward comp for Fox like PG would be like a real estate guy give you a comp of a single family home with equivalent square footage to your Condo.

"Kings fans are incorrect in thinking Fox as a point guard will draw the return of a wing. He simply will not. The league doesn’t function like that."

Is this not dogmatic?

Also, don't move the goalposts here. If I understand the original assertion correctly, you said all-star caliber guards do not return all-star caliber forwards in trade. I provided you with several examples. Many of which have other extenuating circumstances, true, but my point remains that this is not a hill you can die on. You could say it's not likely. You could say "unless these circumstances." But stating "these 3 things are examples, ergo it doesn't happen" is categorically untrue.

OKC doesn't sign big free agents. Until they did. That contract's not tradeable ... until it is. Precedent is helpful for establishing probabilities but looking at the last three big guard trades and using it to draw a concrete, inviolable, "this is what it is" conclusion is a fallacy.

THAT's all I'm saying. I don't even care about these teams. I'm going to go do work like I should.

TL;DR: probabilities not certainties

[Sactowndog]

"Cherry picked" is probably the wrong term, but it's a weird cutoff. It's not like the last 3 trades suddenly make everything that's come before invalid. And now you're saying "point" specifically.

Are big wings not considered forwards now? News to me.

I do think guards have less value than wings as a broad rule, but it's weird that you're being SO dogmatic about this.

I picked 3 because 3 is the traditional standard for a comp.

How am I being dogmatic? I did a comp against 3 other point guards and you come back with a trade for a 6’8” forward as a counter example. Pick any other point guard who was traded and provide a comp.

Doing a forward comp for Fox like PG would be like a real estate guy give you a comp of a single family home with equivalent square footage to your Condo.

"Kings fans are incorrect in thinking Fox as a point guard will draw the return of a wing. He simply will not. The league doesn’t function like that."

Is this not dogmatic?

Also, don't move the goalposts here. If I understand the original assertion correctly, you said all-star caliber guards do not return all-star caliber forwards in trade. I provided you with several examples. Many of which have other extenuating circumstances, true, but my point remains that this is not a hill you can die on. You could say it's not likely. You could say "unless these circumstances." But stating "these 3 things are examples, ergo it doesn't happen" is categorically untrue.

OKC doesn't sign big free agents. Until they did. That contract's not tradeable ... until it is. Precedent is helpful for establishing probabilities but looking at the last three big guard trades and using it to draw a concrete, inviolable, "this is what it is" conclusion is a fallacy.

THAT's all I'm saying. I don't even care about these teams. I'm going to go do work like I should.

TL;DR: probabilities not certainties

As for this statement, it is pretty much a statement of truth with few recent counter examples. …..

"Kings fans are incorrect in thinking Fox as a point guard will draw the return of a wing. He simply will not. The league doesn’t function like that."


Even using your SGA “counter example”, SGA was not an all-star at the time and they also put how many picks into the deal? It’s not like they traded SGA for PG-13 straight up. So I am struggling to see why you think it is.

As a Kings fan, I would happy to be proven wrong but absent a damaged good, rental, or force out I can’t find one. Could you trade Fox for Zion or BI? Sure probably but not sure you want to.

The closest I can think is Weber for Richmond and Otis Thorpe. And even then Weber was considered a pot head, you still had to include Thorpe and it was not this century.

[Andre Roberstan]

I picked 3 because 3 is the traditional standard for a comp.

How am I being dogmatic? I did a comp against 3 other point guards and you come back with a trade for a 6’8” forward as a counter example. Pick any other point guard who was traded and provide a comp.

Doing a forward comp for Fox like PG would be like a real estate guy give you a comp of a single family home with equivalent square footage to your Condo.

"Kings fans are incorrect in thinking Fox as a point guard will draw the return of a wing. He simply will not. The league doesn’t function like that."

Is this not dogmatic?

As for this statement, it is pretty much a statement of truth with few recent counter examples. …..

Eh. IDC enough to keep arguing this. I'm just saying: if it's true it's true. If it's false, it's false. If it's somewhere in between, it should be qualified. If it's "mostly true, but" it chaps my hide to see it stated as absolute truth.

Personal hangup.

[OGSactownballer]

Really be best value was the Hali for Sabonis trade but that gets muddy because the Kings added Buddy. And Sabonis is an interesting player because half the league loves him and half the league hates him as an undersized 5 that can’t defend the rim.

So the inclusion of Buddy was a contract and attitude dump. Let’s not go for revisionist history here. That was the reason that the potential of Hali was being offered for an All NBA caliber center and one of the three best all around bigs in the game.

Let’s not get into the factor of Sabonis as a defender either. Not even going to try to claim “rim protector” because he isn’t particularly nor is his defensive game predicated upon that.

What he is is the league's best rebounder without question. He also is an excellent floor positional defender who consistently has top ten dfg% numbers. Keeping in mind that defensive possessions end when 1) the offensive team scores; 2) they turn the ball over; 3) the defensive team SECURES THE REBOUND. So the foolish misnomer that Sabonis is somehow inadequate or poor as a defender when he literally is THE BEST PLAYER IN THE NBA AT ENDING A DEFENSIVE POSSESSION is ludicrous and falls into the fantasy that shot blockers have that much impact in a game where teams now shoot fully fifty percent of their offensive possession shots from 23’+. It’s not reality. The defensive board ends the opponents possession and he is the best at doing that on top of being an excellent opponents fg% at the rim and in the paint defender. The numbers back it up.

Let’s not derail this thread with a Sabonis discussion. My only point was he is one of the more controversial players in the NBA. That I think is pretty clear as some evaluators have him top 3 and others struggle to put him in the top 10.

No YOU struggle.

Nobody else does. Especially other Kings fans.

Nor does the national ratings who came out with him at #10 on the MVP ladder today. I’d say that isn’t exactly a whole lot of debate or controversy there.

And for the record, you brought him up with a revisionist view of the trade that brought him to SAC.

[Sactowndog]

So the inclusion of Buddy was a contract and attitude dump. Let’s not go for revisionist history here. That was the reason that the potential of Hali was being offered for an All NBA caliber center and one of the three best all around bigs in the game.

Let’s not get into the factor of Sabonis as a defender either. Not even going to try to claim “rim protector” because he isn’t particularly nor is his defensive game predicated upon that.

What he is is the league's best rebounder without question. He also is an excellent floor positional defender who consistently has top ten dfg% numbers. Keeping in mind that defensive possessions end when 1) the offensive team scores; 2) they turn the ball over; 3) the defensive team SECURES THE REBOUND. So the foolish misnomer that Sabonis is somehow inadequate or poor as a defender when he literally is THE BEST PLAYER IN THE NBA AT ENDING A DEFENSIVE POSSESSION is ludicrous and falls into the fantasy that shot blockers have that much impact in a game where teams now shoot fully fifty percent of their offensive possession shots from 23’+. It’s not reality. The defensive board ends the opponents possession and he is the best at doing that on top of being an excellent opponents fg% at the rim and in the paint defender. The numbers back it up.

Let’s not derail this thread with a Sabonis discussion. My only point was he is one of the more controversial players in the NBA. That I think is pretty clear as some evaluators have him top 3 and others struggle to put him in the top 10.

No YOU struggle.

Nobody else does. Especially other Kings fans.

Nor does the national ratings who came out with him at #10 on the MVP ladder today. I’d say that isn’t exactly a whole lot of debate or controversy there.

And for the record, you brought him up with a revisionist view of the trade that brought him to SAC.

Have you listened to Kevin OConner or Nate Duncan? They fairly represent a portion of the NBA. Now things may be changing as Sabonis starts to shoot better but a portion thinks you can’t win in the play-offs with him. Before his shooting people felt the drop played by GS in the play-offs could stop him. In the link below they rank Sabonis 9. About 47 min.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?PerMode=Per36&PlayerPosition=C&dir=A&sort=FG3A

[SNPA]

I do think IF Fox requests a trade as already said it'll come down to Houston and the Spurs. Spurs I think would throw as already said NO Castle, but Sochan and Vassell, and 3 1st round picks for Fox and someone else. BUT that leaves Kings with only D.Carter at PG. So DeRozan would meec to be traded for a PG. What are some options?

Kings would play Monk at point guard. That is his true position in the NBA. He has incredible chemistry with Domas on the 2 man game.

Spurs here could offer to expand the trade to include Tre Jones for Lyles. Tre Jones is a young PG (just turned 25) who is a really good playmaker, with CP3 and Castle his role has diminished a lot and if you bring in Fox then there's no room for him which is a shame. It would really make sense for the Kings to take on his expiring 9 million contract for Lyles expiring 8 million, he can help them now and if they like him use his Bird rights to re-sign him for cheap without eating into their exceptions. Of course this would be in the case of a Fox trade, otherwise Spurs would have no interest in doing this as a standalone trade.

Overall I think the basic framework of Vassell + Sochan + Tre Jones + Zach Collins + pick/s (not 25 unprotected) for Fox + Lyles + Huerter really works all around, Unless the Rockets are willing to break the bank (they can) I think that's a really balanced offer for a player who is one year removed from free agency, doubtful to re-sign and looking for a max/super max.

It’s not occurring in a vacuum. The trade you outline is a rebuilding trade. We can discuss how good of a rebuilding trade it is, but most Kings fans will tell you a rebuilding trade is likely not what Monte would want/need.

[wemby]

Kings would play Monk at point guard. That is his true position in the NBA. He has incredible chemistry with Domas on the 2 man game.

Spurs here could offer to expand the trade to include Tre Jones for Lyles. Tre Jones is a young PG (just turned 25) who is a really good playmaker, with CP3 and Castle his role has diminished a lot and if you bring in Fox then there's no room for him which is a shame. It would really make sense for the Kings to take on his expiring 9 million contract for Lyles expiring 8 million, he can help them now and if they like him use his Bird rights to re-sign him for cheap without eating into their exceptions. Of course this would be in the case of a Fox trade, otherwise Spurs would have no interest in doing this as a standalone trade.

Overall I think the basic framework of Vassell + Sochan + Tre Jones + Zach Collins + pick/s (not 25 unprotected) for Fox + Lyles + Huerter really works all around, Unless the Rockets are willing to break the bank (they can) I think that's a really balanced offer for a player who is one year removed from free agency, doubtful to re-sign and looking for a max/super max.

It’s not occurring in a vacuum. The trade you outline is a rebuilding trade. We can discuss how good of a rebuilding trade it is, but most Kings fans will tell you a rebuilding trade is likely not what Monte would want/need.

The Kings have a choice to make, they either trade Fox or they don't. But if they do, they're not getting a star in return. They might get a player with a better resume than those I mentioned (say, for instance, Ingram) but that's likely for the worse. Fact is, Kings are a play in team with Fox on board. I don't think getting back two young starters that fit with plenty of room to grow is tearing it down. Look at the Dejounte / Dyson Daniels trade, sometimes getting back younger pieces with upside yields much better immediate impact than you'd think. Personally, I feel they'd do better than you think, because I like the fit. Also, they should move DeRozan as well. It'd be a retool more than a rebuild.