Cowley: Bulls ready to add Patrick Williams to trade block

[GoBlue72391]

1. Not sure I agree he's got double the minutes he deserves, but they also don't love Zach or Vuc despite in the past doing things that would suggest they did.

They obviously love Vuc a ridiculous amount relative to his worth too. Zach hasn't ever gotten more playing time than his worth.

2. Hard to understand how Demar wasn't a direct competitor with Patrick. Yeah they ended up playing together, but they're both basically combo forwards with similar bodies. Patrick primarily played SF his rookie year I think, so the competition was that much more obvious at the most relevant time.

Why is it hard to understand that? Pat's minutes have never been impacted by DeMar, nor is his role impacted by DeMar.

3. Not sure why you don't think he had to negotiate. I think it's highly likely his agent was asking for a better deal than he got.

What his agent asks for is irrelevant. We paid him way more than his play warranted or comparable players were offered, and no one else was going to offer him that deal.

4. Agreed - we agree Patrick's contract was a big mistake. Not sure how much more clear I can make that.

I think maybe a disagreement here is in semantics. I think in basketball parlance, the term "love" can be substituted with "overvalued". We significantly overvalued Patrick Williams. I think that is what people mean when we say we love him. An that seems very true to me.

5. The overwhelming majority of nba players at all times for all teams are spoken of positively by their teams.

Probably fair.

I agree they've loved him more than his ability deserves. But they still, obviously, don't love him. If they loved him, they wouldn't have benched him each of the last three years, the coach wouldn't be criticizing him when answering reporters questions, he'd have played as at least a 3rd or 4th option at some point instead of the 5th, and his contract would probably be even worse, and they wouldn't be trying to IMMEDIATELY trade him now that he's eligible for the first time in over a year effectively.

I disagree with all those things except perhaps now their opinion is changed, and they finally realize, mid way through year 5 that their opinion was stupid the entire time. But they only ever benched him for short stretches and still played him over way better options and still continue to do so today, so that still shows they overvalue him. The coach has finally made some criticisms that should have been made long long ago, but even those are still couched in compliments and hope for the future (though that's also just the way Donovan speaks about everyone).

I guess this is just semantics. I don't think the Bulls love any of their players other than maybe Matas.

They obviously don't love ("think super highly of"):

Demar
Zach
Vuc
Caruso
Giddey


I suppose it's possible they "love" Smith, Coby or Ayo.

To be clear, I'm being critical of them here. They're way too attached to guys that they transparently aren't all that high on. Too fixated on "asset management" and "total talent resources".

I agree. I think your definition of "love" is different than how other people would use the term in this context.

Nearly all of his definitions are different than how other people would use them.

[League Circles]

1. Not sure I agree he's got double the minutes he deserves, but they also don't love Zach or Vuc despite in the past doing things that would suggest they did.

They obviously love Vuc a ridiculous amount relative to his worth too. Zach hasn't ever gotten more playing time than his worth.

2. Hard to understand how Demar wasn't a direct competitor with Patrick. Yeah they ended up playing together, but they're both basically combo forwards with similar bodies. Patrick primarily played SF his rookie year I think, so the competition was that much more obvious at the most relevant time.

Why is it hard to understand that? Pat's minutes have never been impacted by DeMar, nor is his role impacted by DeMar.

3. Not sure why you don't think he had to negotiate. I think it's highly likely his agent was asking for a better deal than he got.

What his agent asks for is irrelevant. We paid him way more than his play warranted or comparable players were offered, and no one else was going to offer him that deal.

4. Agreed - we agree Patrick's contract was a big mistake. Not sure how much more clear I can make that.

I think maybe a disagreement here is in semantics. I think in basketball parlance, the term "love" can be substituted with "overvalued". We significantly overvalued Patrick Williams. I think that is what people mean when we say we love him. An that seems very true to me.

5. The overwhelming majority of nba players at all times for all teams are spoken of positively by their teams.

Probably fair.

I agree they've loved him more than his ability deserves. But they still, obviously, don't love him. If they loved him, they wouldn't have benched him each of the last three years, the coach wouldn't be criticizing him when answering reporters questions, he'd have played as at least a 3rd or 4th option at some point instead of the 5th, and his contract would probably be even worse, and they wouldn't be trying to IMMEDIATELY trade him now that he's eligible for the first time in over a year effectively.

I disagree with all those things except perhaps now their opinion is changed, and they finally realize, mid way through year 5 that their opinion was stupid the entire time. But they only ever benched him for short stretches and still played him over way better options and still continue to do so today, so that still shows they overvalue him. The coach has finally made some criticisms that should have been made long long ago, but even those are still couched in compliments and hope for the future (though that's also just the way Donovan speaks about everyone).

I guess this is just semantics. I don't think the Bulls love any of their players other than maybe Matas.

They obviously don't love ("think super highly of"):

Demar
Zach
Vuc
Caruso
Giddey


I suppose it's possible they "love" Smith, Coby or Ayo.

To be clear, I'm being critical of them here. They're way too attached to guys that they transparently aren't all that high on. Too fixated on "asset management" and "total talent resources".

I agree. I think your definition of "love" is different than how other people would use the term in this context.

Nearly all of his definitions are different than how other people would use them.

Yeah, these days many people are only able to communicate in binaries. A player must be loved or hated, in this context, apparently.

[GoBlue72391]

They obviously love Vuc a ridiculous amount relative to his worth too. Zach hasn't ever gotten more playing time than his worth.



Why is it hard to understand that? Pat's minutes have never been impacted by DeMar, nor is his role impacted by DeMar.



What his agent asks for is irrelevant. We paid him way more than his play warranted or comparable players were offered, and no one else was going to offer him that deal.



I think maybe a disagreement here is in semantics. I think in basketball parlance, the term "love" can be substituted with "overvalued". We significantly overvalued Patrick Williams. I think that is what people mean when we say we love him. An that seems very true to me.



Probably fair.



I disagree with all those things except perhaps now their opinion is changed, and they finally realize, mid way through year 5 that their opinion was stupid the entire time. But they only ever benched him for short stretches and still played him over way better options and still continue to do so today, so that still shows they overvalue him. The coach has finally made some criticisms that should have been made long long ago, but even those are still couched in compliments and hope for the future (though that's also just the way Donovan speaks about everyone).



I agree. I think your definition of "love" is different than how other people would use the term in this context.

Nearly all of his definitions are different than how other people would use them.

Yeah, these days many people are only able to communicate in binaries. A player must be loved or hated, in this context, apparently.

I'm just saying, it seems like simple discussions get drawn out into needless long debates just because you have different definitions than most other people do. It definitely adds a different element to the board, I'll give you that.

[League Circles]

[/u][/i][/b]
Nearly all of his definitions are different than how other people would use them.

Yeah, these days many people are only able to communicate in binaries. A player must be loved or hated, in this context, apparently.

I'm just saying, it seems like simple discussions get drawn out into needless long debates just because you have different definitions than most other people do. It definitely adds a different element to the board, I'll give you that.

It probably wouldn't get drawn out if so many people didn't have an actual allergic response to anything remotely close to giving context or half defense of virtually anything related to AK, who, by the way, was praised by so many when he got the job...... But not me. I deal in scalar values.

[dougthonus]

Yeah, these days many people are only able to communicate in binaries. A player must be loved or hated, in this context, apparently.

Literally no one said that but you. I just gave you a straight forward definition of "loved" means "overvalued". They could overvalue, undervalue, or correctly value a player.

Guys they have generally overvalue to me: Vuc, Pat

Guys they have generally undervalue to me: Javonte Green, DJJ, Andre Drummond, Jalen Smith

Guys they have generally correctly value: Zach, Caruso, DeMar, Lonzo (when healthy)

Guys whom have probably moved around and have been over/under/correct depending when you ask: Coby, Ayo

[GoBlue72391]

Yeah, these days many people are only able to communicate in binaries. A player must be loved or hated, in this context, apparently.

I'm just saying, it seems like simple discussions get drawn out into needless long debates just because you have different definitions than most other people do. It definitely adds a different element to the board, I'll give you that.

It probably wouldn't get drawn out if so many people didn't have an actual allergic response to anything remotely close to giving context or half defense of virtually anything related to AK, who, by the way, was praised by so many when he got the job...... But not me. I deal in scalar values.

Come on man, 5-year contracts are basically the same thing as 3 and 4-year contracts? All the evidence points to AKME being lukewarm on Pat instead of loving him? You have to know that you're probably the only person with those opinions.

Just because people liked AKME when they first came on board doesn't mean they're still going to like them 5 years later.

Speaking of no-context, what about the fun fact you posted about how Pat is a better 3-point shooter by percentage than Zach? That's factually true, but it's lacking all context and is essentially pointless.

[League Circles]

Yeah, these days many people are only able to communicate in binaries. A player must be loved or hated, in this context, apparently.

Literally no one said that but you. I just gave you a straight forward definition of "loved" means "overvalued". They could overvalue, undervalue, or correctly value a player.

Guys they have generally overvalue to me: Vuc, Pat

Guys they have generally undervalue to me: Javonte Green, DJJ, Andre Drummond, Jalen Smith

Guys they have generally correctly value: Zach, Caruso, DeMar, Lonzo (when healthy)

Guys whom have probably moved around and have been over/under/correct depending when you ask: Coby, Ayo

Yeah, I don't think it's crazy or anything to use "love" for overvalue, but I don't think it's obvious that's what anyone would mean. For example, they certainly overvalue Dalen Terry (he shouldn't have been drafted or had his 3rd or 4th year options picked up IMO cause he's a borderline NBA player), but do they "love" Dalen Terry? Absolutely not.

They gave Vuc a big pay cut and have been trying to trade him.

I think they overvalue almost everyone they get despite not loving hardly any of them.

[League Circles]

I'm just saying, it seems like simple discussions get drawn out into needless long debates just because you have different definitions than most other people do. It definitely adds a different element to the board, I'll give you that.

It probably wouldn't get drawn out if so many people didn't have an actual allergic response to anything remotely close to giving context or half defense of virtually anything related to AK, who, by the way, was praised by so many when he got the job...... But not me. I deal in scalar values.

Come on man, 5-year contracts are basically the same thing as 3 and 4-year contracts? All the evidence points to AKME being lukewarm on Pat instead of loving him? You have to know that you're probably the only person with those opinions.

Just because people liked AKME when they first came on board doesn't mean they're still going to like them 5 years later.

Speaking of no-context, what about the fun fact you posted about how Pat is a better 3-point shooter by percentage than Zach? That's factually true, but it's lacking all context and is essentially pointless.

I may be among the few of the tiny number of posters left on this board that isn't incredibly emotionally charged and prejudiced about everything relating to AK, yes.

My point about AK is that many people on this board go straight to extremes with a lack of justification. There was never a great reason when hired to think AK would be good, and there isn't a good reason now to think the Bulls are particularly high on a player THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO TRADE NOW THAT HE'S FINALLY ELIGIBLE. Lol

Of course the Patrick vs Zach thing was lacking in context and pointless! That's why it's a FUN fact, and not an important one. It's just kinda funny to see people trash the **** out of Patrick despite that, when we all know people like to drool over those type of 3pt shooting numbers for grass-is-greener players for other teams.

[HomoSapien]

Joe Cowley's 'source' isn't worth a dozen eggs. Of all those national guys with connections who know what's going on never include the Bulls in what they see coming and even less PWill. To think some janitor at the Advocate center heard something and called the bankruptcy news is just unlikely.

It's a manipulative way for Cowley to report the basic truth that anyone could easily already know: Patrick Williams just went from being ineligible to be traded to being eligible to be traded a couple days ago per CBA rules, so of course now he along with every other eligible player is being considered to be "involved it trade talks". Total non-story as with most NBA "news".

This is a ridiculous takeaway if you read the actual article. I will help you see why.

But now it’s becoming clear that even some pieces the Bulls were counting on to be part of that future are looking more suspect than prospect.

A source Saturday told the Sun-Times that Karnisovas finally has bought in to the idea that 23-year-old forward Patrick Williams needs a change of scenery, opening the door for him to be on the trade block, too.

So why the change of heart?

The Bulls’ coaching staff has been trying to unlock Williams’ potential for years. And while he has had setbacks with injuries, the source said Williams hasn’t been easy to work with. As is the case with most NBA teams, individual coaches are matched up with individual players, and there has been frustration on both sides with previous matchups.

Williams hasn’t just gone backward, he has regressed to the point where coach Billy Donovan continues cutting his minutes. Against the Hornets, he played 17 minutes, scored five points, didn’t grab a rebound and was minus-17 in plus/minus.

If you took two seconds to read the article, it would be clear that this isn't an article about how Williams is simply available to trade now and could be available since any non-franchise player is tradeable. It is a major shift in AK's POV of Williams who he has prized dearly since drafting him. Again: "Karnisovas finally has bought into the idea the Patrick Williams needs a change of scenery" is a big organizational shift.

[League Circles]

Joe Cowley's 'source' isn't worth a dozen eggs. Of all those national guys with connections who know what's going on never include the Bulls in what they see coming and even less PWill. To think some janitor at the Advocate center heard something and called the bankruptcy news is just unlikely.

It's a manipulative way for Cowley to report the basic truth that anyone could easily already know: Patrick Williams just went from being ineligible to be traded to being eligible to be traded a couple days ago per CBA rules, so of course now he along with every other eligible player is being considered to be "involved it trade talks". Total non-story as with most NBA "news".

This is a ridiculous takeaway if you read the actual article. I will help you see why.

But now it’s becoming clear that even some pieces the Bulls were counting on to be part of that future are looking more suspect than prospect.

A source Saturday told the Sun-Times that Karnisovas finally has bought in to the idea that 23-year-old forward Patrick Williams needs a change of scenery, opening the door for him to be on the trade block, too.

So why the change of heart?

The Bulls’ coaching staff has been trying to unlock Williams’ potential for years. And while he has had setbacks with injuries, the source said Williams hasn’t been easy to work with. As is the case with most NBA teams, individual coaches are matched up with individual players, and there has been frustration on both sides with previous matchups.

Williams hasn’t just gone backward, he has regressed to the point where coach Billy Donovan continues cutting his minutes. Against the Hornets, he played 17 minutes, scored five points, didn’t grab a rebound and was minus-17 in plus/minus.

If you took two seconds to read the article, it would be clear that this isn't an article about how Williams is simply available to trade now and could be available since any non-franchise player is tradeable. It is a major shift in AK's POV of Williams who he has prized dearly since drafting him. Again: "Karnisovas finally has bought into the idea the Patrick Williams needs a change of scenery" is a big organizational shift.

Well, I had read those quotes, but can't read the whole article as I'm not a sun times subscriber.

I believe there is a 99% chance that the "source" is not in the Bulls org and there is a reason why the source isn't quoted but is instead paraphrased or interpreted.

I just don't believe in the concept or existence of "trade blocks". And I find it to be pretty suspect that AK's alleged new willingness to trade him happens to correspond exactly with him being eligible to be traded for the effectively the first time since summer 2023.

I mean, of course he's lower on Patrick now than he's ever been. We all are. He's playing about as bad as he has while making more money on a new long deal. But I don't buy into any kind of abrupt change of heart or epiphany by AK. I think he knew this was a possibility for the past few years and is disappointed but not shocked that this is where we are. You don't go from thinking a guy is definitely a core piece to thinking he needs a change of scenery abruptly. I think AK wanted to keep giving Patrick chances while he was on his rookie deal, because he believed in his talent and upside, not cause he was super confident that Patrick would reach it (kost players don't come close after all). Then Patrick's injury before the trade deadline last season pulled the rug out from under AK and put him in a super difficult position with Patrick, which AK then botched.

Again, this is a former #4 overall pick who started 71/71 games as a rookie and then only 73% of his games the next 3 seasons. I guess it's plausible that AK has been much higher on Patrick than Billy has though, idk.

[HomoSapien]

Well, I had read those quotes, but can't read the whole article as I'm not a sun times subscriber.

Thank you for admitting that you are holding an uninformed opinion. For future reference, you can still read Suntimes articles for free by watching a 30 second video.

I believe there is a 99% chance that the "source" is not in the Bulls org and there is a reason why the source isn't quoted but is instead paraphrased or interpreted.

Your belief is based on nothing.

I just don't believe in the concept or existence of "trade blocks".

You might not believe in gravity. Thankfully, one's belief in something is irrelevant to whether or not it actually exists.

Again, this is a former #4 overall pick who started 71/71 games as a rookie and then only 73% of his games the next 3 seasons. I guess it's plausible that AK has been much higher on Patrick than Billy has though, idk.

We have basically cleared out any potential competition for him at the 4 (Lauri, Thad, Theis, DJJ) so he has to start. They are doing everything they can to pump up his numbers so that they don't look like idiots once again.

[League Circles]

Well, I had read those quotes, but can't read the whole article as I'm not a sun times subscriber.

Thank you for admitting that you are holding an uninformed opinion. For future reference, you can still read Suntimes articles for free by watching a 30 second video.

I believe there is a 99% chance that the "source" is not in the Bulls org and there is a reason why the source isn't quoted but is instead paraphrased or interpreted.

Your belief is based on nothing.

I just don't believe in the concept or existence of "trade blocks".

You might not believe in gravity. Thankfully, one's belief in something is irrelevant to whether or not it actually exists.

Again, this is a former #4 overall pick who started 71/71 games as a rookie and then only 73% of his games the next 3 seasons. I guess it's plausible that AK has been much higher on Patrick than Billy has though, idk.

We have basically cleared out any potential competition for him at the 4 (Lauri, Thad, Theis, DJJ) so he has to start. They are doing everything they can to pump up his numbers so that they don't look like idiots once again.

No one in the Bulls org benefits from making Patrick look bad in the press. Hurts his trade value when it's very low and fragile already. If it was a Bulls team source, Cowley would be sure to highlight that. He didn't at least in the quotes offered. I'm not guaranteeing that it wasn't a current Bulls employee, but that's not based on nothing. It's an observation of how the employees and Cowley would logically act in their own interests.

Yeah, again, even with most direct competition being non serious until this year (other than Demar who basically pushed Patrick to the 4 which many would argue isn't his ideal spot), he's still only started 73% of the game he's played in over the last 3 years after 100% as a rookie.

"Trade blocks" suggest that there are players designated as available and those designated as unavailable. I believe there's a lot more subtlety to that. I think most execs are (privately) considering trading most players at most times (it's literally all they can do in terms of action for most of the year), and try to delicately explore what's out there while not overly tipping their hand (which is an incredibly difficult line to walk - you want to find out what you could get for your guys but the instant you offer them you indicate on at least some level that you're not as high on them as you were when you drafted them and as you are when singing their praises to the media whenever asked).

The way I interpret this is that now, perhaps for the first time ever, AKME are finding themselves in trade conversations where Patrick's name is being specially included (as opposed to vaguely excluded like he may have been the past few years). They are probably going to start by framing it as a reluctant throw in to match salary as part of a package offer while actually being motivated by dumping him, but who knows. I just think it's too illogical to believe that AK just did a 180 on Patrick. More like a 40 degree swerve IMO.

[GoBlue72391]

"I don't believe in the existence of trading blocks" is a fun one. I can't wait until the League Circles New English Dictionary is released.

[League Circles]

"I don't believe in the existence of trading blocks" is a fun one. I can't wait until the League Circles New English Dictionary is released.

You might find "trading block" in Webster's 9th Dictionary for Simple Minds". It's for people who need to over-categorize and essentialize everything or they can't understand it.

[dougthonus]

My point about AK is that many people on this board go straight to extremes with a lack of justification. There was never a great reason when hired to think AK would be good, and there isn't a good reason now to think the Bulls are particularly high on a player THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO TRADE NOW THAT HE'S FINALLY ELIGIBLE. Lol

I think connecting piece of information is: They "loved" these guys in the past, at the very important point, when they were handing out deals that made no sense. I agree, they probably aren't presently high on Pat Williams after he's still crapping the bed in his 5th year.