Cade Cunningham should be an all star

[tsherkin]

[
His assist to turnover ratio being mediocre to poor? puts a clamp on how valuable his playmaking is, even if it is a positive we can`t really praise him for 10 turnovers with 7 assists and say that its really his teams fault because they are stupid. The best playmakers make reads and adjustments before things happen and during the game.

Sure, you can argue that his playmaking in that particular game was rough, especially because he was zinging bad passes all over the place in the second. That wasn't my point. Calling him the "most overrated player in NBA history" was pretty ridiculous, though. Statistically, he has more offensive value than someone like Barnes IN SPITE of his turnover issues.

Obviously, I'm not here to sing Cade's praises. When evaluating a focal player, I'm less impressed when they aren't at least average-efficiency scorers. But he IS operating in a tough environment and saddled with difficult responsibilities and little help, especially with Ivey missing so many games.

[Frankie]

Cade should definitely be an all star this year. The guy is cooking something.

[tsherkin]

Cade should definitely be an all star this year. The guy is cooking something.

Statistically, he doesn't really stack up to a lot of other guys once you start considering efficiency, turnovers, etc. Outside of the Top 20 in stuff like OBPM, VORP, etc. Barely inside the Top 50 in stuff like EPM, just outside Top 40 in O-EPM specifically. Scoring a lot on crap efficiency. Top 10 in Passer Rating, 6th in Box Creation. He's like 22d in creation-adjusted turnover percentage among guys who've played 900+ MP this season with a Passer Rating of 5+, which isn't particularly good. Net on/off just outside the Top 50. Doesn't get to the rim well, doesn't draw fouls, okay but non-elite 3pt shooter so far this season. Doesn't finish well when he DOES get to the rim.

There's a reason there's pushback against his All-Star candidacy. He's pretty borderline, even once you adjust for how unimpressive the help around him is in Detroit. Points Per Game + Assists Per Game doesn't necessarily mean "All-Star." In the context of comparing him to a bunch of other guys circling the border of inclusion, he comes up a little shorter than most of them, so "should be an All-Star" remains pretty aggressive wording.

[JujitsuFlip]

Cade should definitely be an all star this year. The guy is cooking something.

Statistically, he doesn't really stack up to a lot of other guys once you start considering efficiency, turnovers, etc. Outside of the Top 20 in stuff like OBPM, VORP, etc. Barely inside the Top 50 in stuff like EPM, just outside Top 40 in O-EPM specifically. Scoring a lot on crap efficiency. Top 10 in Passer Rating, 6th in Box Creation. He's like 22d in creation-adjusted turnover percentage among guys who've played 900+ MP this season with a Passer Rating of 5+, which isn't particularly good. Net on/off just outside the Top 50. Doesn't get to the rim well, doesn't draw fouls, okay but non-elite 3pt shooter so far this season. Doesn't finish well when he DOES get to the rim.

There's a reason there's pushback against his All-Star candidacy. He's pretty borderline, even once you adjust for how unimpressive the help around him is in Detroit. Points Per Game + Assists Per Game doesn't necessarily mean "All-Star." In the context of comparing him to a bunch of other guys circling the border of inclusion, he comes up a little shorter than most of them, so "should be an All-Star" remains pretty aggressive wording.

No one with a vote is looking at any of that.

Does he have good counting stats? Yes.

Is his team's record good enough? Yes.

Does he play basketball games? Yes.

Therefore he should and most likely will be an Eastern All-Star reserve.

[tsherkin]

No one with a vote is looking at any of that.

Does he have good counting stats? Yes.

Is his team's record good enough? Yes.

Does he play basketball games? Yes.

Therefore he should and most likely will be an Eastern All-Star reserve.

That isn't really salient. We know the voters are morons.

But the OP was discussing the notion that Cade deserves the selection, which is a very different discussion.

[ValvPiti]

Bad effiency, turnover, EDM, BDM, BPM, O-EPM, DTM, ATM, AM, PM, yada, yada, yada.

[JujitsuFlip]

No one with a vote is looking at any of that.

Does he have good counting stats? Yes.

Is his team's record good enough? Yes.

Does he play basketball games? Yes.

Therefore he should and most likely will be an Eastern All-Star reserve.

That isn't really salient. We know the voters are morons.

But the OP was discussing the notion that Cade deserves the selection, which is a very different discussion.

Like i said, the 3 things i mentioned is what voting is based on, therefore what deserves is based on.

If the All-Star game was based on advanced metrics a lot more defense first guys would make the team.

[tsherkin]

Like i said, the 3 things i mentioned is what voting is based on, therefore what deserves is based on.

If the All-Star game was based on advanced metrics a lot more defense first guys would make the team.

And they should. The ASG is a waste of time at this point and doesn't really do a lot to highlight player quality at all. That said, working with a discussion focusing on crappy voters isn't really useful either, wherefore I feel free to discuss whether he actually merits AS consideration.

[ijspeelman]

Like i said, the 3 things i mentioned is what voting is based on, therefore what deserves is based on.

If the All-Star game was based on advanced metrics a lot more defense first guys would make the team.

And they should. The ASG is a waste of time at this point and doesn't really do a lot to highlight player quality at all. That said, working with a discussion focusing on crappy voters isn't really useful either, wherefore I feel free to discuss whether he actually merits AS consideration.

I like to think of players as all-stars outside the context of who actually wins the awards, but instead who impacts the game like an all-star.

I've seen you mention he's not showing up high on a lot of advanced metrics (I assume bc of his inefficient scoring and 2:1 AST:TO ratio), but would you still consider him an all-star caliber guard?

I ask this mainly bc he's very fringe for me, but I did put him on my all-star ballot bc I think what he's done with a pretty offensively inept squad is admirable. I don't love that 96 TS+ or inefficient AST:TO ratio, but despite that when he's on the court his team posts a 115.7 ORTG (its much worse when he's off, but he's also the only reliable playmaker on the roster even when Ivey was healthy). Its just an interesting case to be made for him.

[tsherkin]

I like to think of players as all-stars outside the context of who actually wins the awards, but instead who impacts the game like an all-star.

I agree.

I've seen you mention he's not showing up high on a lot of advanced metrics (I assume bc of his inefficient scoring and 2:1 AST:TO ratio), but would you still consider him an all-star caliber guard?

No, not really. I think he's made some improvements as a playmaker which are nice to see, but he isn't AS-caliber to me. Not yet, anyway. He' a net-positive player for the Pistons, sure, but that isn't the same thing. There is a point where any degree of competence comes with a given level of impact on a sufficiently low-quality team. That sort of "you can be crap at it, but SOMEONE has to create shots" type of level as a scorer. He's a decent passer, but he still throws it away a lot. That said, some of that isn't on him, right? He isn't just getting picked endlessly because of poor passing, he's struggling to get the ball because the rest of the team isn't much good, and that's impacting his turnover rate too. His creation-adjusted rate is definitely better than his raw TOV%, too, which is positive.

Right now, though, he just doesn't look like an AS-level guy to me. Someone who might get there, but isn't quite there yet. Definitely not someone who I'd agree clearly deserves a selection.

[ijspeelman]

I like to think of players as all-stars outside the context of who actually wins the awards, but instead who impacts the game like an all-star.

I agree.

I've seen you mention he's not showing up high on a lot of advanced metrics (I assume bc of his inefficient scoring and 2:1 AST:TO ratio), but would you still consider him an all-star caliber guard?

No, not really. I think he's made some improvements as a playmaker which are nice to see, but he isn't AS-caliber to me. Not yet, anyway. He' a net-positive player for the Pistons, sure, but that isn't the same thing. There is a point where any degree of competence comes with a given level of impact on a sufficiently low-quality team. That sort of "you can be crap at it, but SOMEONE has to create shots" type of level as a scorer. He's a decent passer, but he still throws it away a lot. That said, some of that isn't on him, right? He isn't just getting picked endlessly because of poor passing, he's struggling to get the ball because the rest of the team isn't much good, and that's impacting his turnover rate too. His creation-adjusted rate is definitely better than his raw TOV%, too, which is positive.

Right now, though, he just doesn't look like an AS-level guy to me. Someone who might get there, but isn't quite there yet. Definitely not someone who I'd agree clearly deserves a selection.

Do you have a good read on what he brings as a defender? I've seen discourse that he's a really bad defender, but from what I've watched from him nothing has stuck out good or bad from his team or one-on-one defense. I know advanced defensive metrics mostly do not like his defense.

[tsherkin]

Do you have a good read on what he brings as a defender? I've seen discourse that he's a really bad defender, but from what I've watched from him nothing has stuck out good or bad from his team or one-on-one defense. I know advanced defensive metrics mostly do not like his defense.

Haven't seen anything stunning about him there. He isn't a high-motor guy on D. Doesn't draw a ton of charges (but is 3rd on the team in charges drawn), doesn't force a lot of turnovers. He CAN move his feet and defend on-ball. He has his moments. And of course, he's also their leading scorer and primary playmaker, so you know something's got to give. He gets a couple deflections a game (and only Ausar is getting more per game on the Pistons) and he can be pesky when he locks in on-ball. And it's important to remember that he's got an average defense behind him without any intimidating shotblockers or anything like that. He gets about as many loose balls as anyone else on the Pistons, and only Duren and Isaiah Stewart contest more shots per game.

That's about what I've got on him. He's not that bad, and in Detroit's specific context, he's pretty good. They need more help on that front, especially while he's carrying the load offensively.

[phanman]

No one with a vote is looking at any of that.

Does he have good counting stats? Yes.

Is his team's record good enough? Yes.

Does he play basketball games? Yes.

Therefore he should and most likely will be an Eastern All-Star reserve.

That isn't really salient. We know the voters are morons.

But the OP was discussing the notion that Cade deserves the selection, which is a very different discussion.

He's not getting in as starter, so the voters that you guys are referencing would the coaches (or assistants)

I think LaMelo is going to get voted in as starter even after they tally up the players & media vote and I think the other 3 guard slots are locks with Mitchell, Garland and Brunson. That leaves the two wildcard slots with one I have going to Dame whose low key having a bounce back season with his efficiency. He's helped the Bucks win the IST and claw back up to the 4th seed after that poor 2-8 start. I think he has too much cache to get left off which left me with one more slot that I debated Trae and Cade. Personally I think Trae deserves it over Cade but I just get the feeling that he isn't well liked around the league

[tsherkin]

I think LaMelo is going to get voted in as starter even after they tally up the players & media vote and I think the other 3 guard slots are locks with Mitchell, Garland and Brunson. That leaves the two wildcard slots with one I have going to Dame whose low key having a bounce back season with his efficiency. He's helped the Bucks win the IST and claw back up to the 4th seed after a that poor 2-8 start. I think he has too much cache to get left off which left me with one more slot that I debated Trae and Cade. Personally I think Trae deserves it over Cade but I just get the feeling that he isn't well liked around the league

Trae is definitely a better player than Cade is right now, and it would make most sense.

Lamelo will probably start, even though he really shouldn't, but he's still having a pretty positive offensive season overall because he's a very good playmaker.

[drekwins]

He had a good game but 10 turnovers that can’t happen

Cade is becoming the best guard in the East. If his turnovers are all he needs to beat, he will. He looks like Kobe out there.

He’s better than anyone on your team Cap’n Crunch. Deal with it.

It is real easy to look at the box score, and see 10 TO and think WTF, but when you watch the game, and see Houston hard trapping Cade constantly, it's easy to see why. Also, Houston plays a very physical brand of defense.

Can anyone post a gif, or clip of Cade yamming it on a bunch of Rockets? Man Cade was barking after that one.

I'm a big Cade fan... but there is no justification for 10 turnovers. That's just silly. The very best teams, come playoff time, consistently have 10 or less turnovers as a team (in the games that they win). Protecting the ball is important. It's a legit knock on Cade and he has to improve in that area in order to get to his full potential. Ignoring or justifying it is not the correct approach long-term.

[Mr Peanut]

I think LaMelo is going to get voted in as starter even after they tally up the players & media vote and I think the other 3 guard slots are locks with Mitchell, Garland and Brunson. That leaves the two wildcard slots with one I have going to Dame whose low key having a bounce back season with his efficiency. He's helped the Bucks win the IST and claw back up to the 4th seed after a that poor 2-8 start. I think he has too much cache to get left off which left me with one more slot that I debated Trae and Cade. Personally I think Trae deserves it over Cade but I just get the feeling that he isn't well liked around the league

Trae is definitely a better player than Cade is right now, and it would make most sense.

Lamelo will probably start, even though he really shouldn't, but he's still having a pretty positive offensive season overall because he's a very good playmaker.

What is the argument for Trae being "definitely a better player than Cade is right now"? Very curious to hear that one. Maybe in seasons gone by, but not currently.

[tsherkin]

What is the argument for Trae being "definitely a better player than Cade is right now"? Very curious to hear that one. Maybe in seasons gone by, but not currently.

He's a considerably superior playmaker. Not a better scorer, but he is better at drawing fouls and he's much better at protecting the ball. His offensive impact stats also signal significant advantage.

[aad]

Cade is a better player then trae

[tsherkin]

Cade is a better player then trae

I don't see anything supporting that, either when watching them or statistically.

[bstein14]

No one with a vote is looking at any of that.

Does he have good counting stats? Yes.

Is his team's record good enough? Yes.

Does he play basketball games? Yes.

Therefore he should and most likely will be an Eastern All-Star reserve.

That isn't really salient. We know the voters are morons.

But the OP was discussing the notion that Cade deserves the selection, which is a very different discussion.

Historically all-star selections have been more about raw stats and team wins. Coaches often have voted the best player on the 6/7/8 seeds into the game but left off players that have good stats on lottery teams. Teams with the best records in the conference have often gotten multiple all-stars.

If you're talking ALL-NBA, I think looking deeper into advanced numbers and stats is often done by those voting for the 15 guys that get that honor but as far as "deserving" of an all-star for Cade it really comes down to the team being above .500 If they team is 28-22 after 50 games and he's done the carry job he has he surely is deserving. If the team is 22-28 after 50 games then you might have to look at the best players on the teams above him and see if they deserve it over him.

To me, I'd be disappointed to see guys like LaVine, Maxey (or any Sixer), LaMelo Ball(huge PPG but team isn't doing any winning), etc getting an all-star nod. I know LaMelo his leading in fan voting.

Bulls, Sixers, Nets, Hornets, Raptors, Wizards should have 0 all-stars this year.