Cade Cunningham should be an all star

[tsherkin]

Historically all-star selections have been more about raw stats and team wins. Coaches often have voted the best player on the 6/7/8 seeds into the game but left off players that have good stats on lottery teams. Teams with the best records in the conference have often gotten multiple all-stars.

Again, not really relevant to my point.

If the team is 22-28 after 50 games then you might have to look at the best players on the teams above him and see if they deserve it over him.

And I think that's largely nonsense. One guy can do only so much. Punishing him because the players around him aren't playing well has always seemed somewhat non-sensical to me. Yeah, giving the MVP to a guy on a sub-.500 team seems a little weird, but if the guy is playing at an actual All-Star level, even if his team is struggling, then that shouldn't be an impediment. But if he isn't playing as well as other guys, then that actually matters.

Bulls, Sixers, Nets, Hornets, Raptors, Wizards should have 0 all-stars this year.

Bulls, don't agree. They're a nearly .500 team. Sixers are on pace for like 30 wins, mainly due to injuries. Maxey's okay. Inefficient volume scorer with more punch on offense than someone like Cade (more comparable to Trae, actually), so he probably deserves it, and certainly more than Cade. Brooklyn doesn't have anyone worth discussing anyway.

Ball is having pretty strong offensive impact. Basically everything you could possibly look at showcases his utility on O. Unfortunately, he has literally nothing to work with. He shouldn't be starting, but he is clearly playing at an All-Star level and is far better than most of the guys we've been discussing. Obviously, his raw PPG overrates him but that's neither here nor there.

The Wizards suck at everything. They clearly have no one playing at an All-Star level. They are literally last on both ends of the floor, they suck from 3, they can't protect the ball, they're no good on the offensive glass, they can't defend, they don't force turnovers, they're trash at everything. They also have two 19 year-olds and a 20 year-old starting for them, with a whack of others in their early 20s playing significant minutes, so it's not altogether that surprising. But yeah, no one there is threatening All-Star selection.

And yeah, no one on Toronto is really threatening AS selection except Barnes, and I don't see him making it. We're quite bad and he's actually regressed compared to last year, even if he's sticking the middie better. Rebounding, defense, playmaking, it's there, but like Cade, his actual impact is only so strong, so he's at best a borderline candidate.

[drekwins]

Historically all-star selections have been more about raw stats and team wins. Coaches often have voted the best player on the 6/7/8 seeds into the game but left off players that have good stats on lottery teams. Teams with the best records in the conference have often gotten multiple all-stars.

Again, not really relevant to my point.

If the team is 22-28 after 50 games then you might have to look at the best players on the teams above him and see if they deserve it over him.

And I think that's largely nonsense. One guy can do only so much. Punishing him because the players around him aren't playing well has always seemed somewhat non-sensical to me. Yeah, giving the MVP to a guy on a sub-.500 team seems a little weird, but if the guy is playing at an actual All-Star level, even if his team is struggling, then that shouldn't be an impediment. But if he isn't playing as well as other guys, then that actually matters.

Bulls, Sixers, Nets, Hornets, Raptors, Wizards should have 0 all-stars this year.

Bulls, don't agree. They're a nearly .500 team. Sixers are on pace for like 30 wins, mainly due to injuries. Maxey's okay. Inefficient volume scorer with more punch on offense than someone like Cade (more comparable to Trae, actually), so he probably deserves it, and certainly more than Cade. Brooklyn doesn't have anyone worth discussing anyway.

Ball is having pretty strong offensive impact. Basically everything you could possibly look at showcases his utility on O. Unfortunately, he has literally nothing to work with. He shouldn't be starting, but he is clearly playing at an All-Star level and is far better than most of the guys we've been discussing. Obviously, his raw PPG overrates him but that's neither here nor there.

The Wizards suck at everything. They clearly have no one playing at an All-Star level. They are literally last on both ends of the floor, they suck from 3, they can't protect the ball, they're no good on the offensive glass, they can't defend, they don't force turnovers, they're trash at everything. They also have two 19 year-olds and a 20 year-old starting for them, with a whack of others in their early 20s playing significant minutes, so it's not altogether that surprising. But yeah, no one there is threatening All-Star selection.

And yeah, no one on Toronto is really threatening AS selection except Barnes, and I don't see him making it. We're quite bad and he's actually regressed compared to last year, even if he's sticking the middie better. Rebounding, defense, playmaking, it's there, but like Cade, his actual impact is only so strong, so he's at best a borderline candidate.

I couldn't disagree more. I agree with the OP. Why is Charlotte losing games? A big reason is because they're an immature team that turns the ball over, takes bad shots and is not efficient. LaMelo Ball is the poster boy of immature basketball. He has a huge following but he must grow by leaps and bounds to become the player that people "think" he is. Trae is not much different than that. He shoots volume like Steph, but with AWFUL percentages for a volume shooter... and he's still turning the ball over 4.5 times per game. People that root for these guys don't know what winning basketball looks like...

[tsherkin]

I couldn't disagree more. I agree with the OP. Why is Charlotte losing games? A big reason is because they're an immature team that turns the ball over, takes bad shots and is not efficient. LaMelo Ball is the poster boy of immature basketball. He has a huge following but he must grow by leaps and bounds to become the player that people "think" he is. Trae is not much different than that. He shoots volume like Steph, but with AWFUL percentages for a volume shooter... and he's still turning the ball over 4.5 times per game. People that root for these guys don't know what winning basketball looks like...

4.5 tpg, sure. But raw turnover volume is a fairly poor measuring stick. He's leading the league with 11.7 apg, has an AST% of 47.5% (league-high) against 17.8% TOV (which is very good, and better than many seasons of Magic and Nash), and crushes it in all of the various passing metrics. So using his raw TPG isn't really an effective way of attacking his play.

Ball is not scoring well. This is clear. He's bombing away from three, but again, perfunctory examination of the team explains why. He has NOTHING around him, and is making a lot happen with his playmaking anyway. And the floor-raising value of even crappy scoring like Ball, Cade, Trae and Barnes provide. But of them all, Ball is exerting the most offensive impact for a reason.

It's not far different with Trae. Yes, in both cases, it would be better if they had the option to not shoot so much, but who else is going to handle the scoring volume? No one on those teams is worth shuffling the load.

[drekwins]

I couldn't disagree more. I agree with the OP. Why is Charlotte losing games? A big reason is because they're an immature team that turns the ball over, takes bad shots and is not efficient. LaMelo Ball is the poster boy of immature basketball. He has a huge following but he must grow by leaps and bounds to become the player that people "think" he is. Trae is not much different than that. He shoots volume like Steph, but with AWFUL percentages for a volume shooter... and he's still turning the ball over 4.5 times per game. People that root for these guys don't know what winning basketball looks like...

4.5 tpg, sure. But raw turnover volume is a fairly poor measuring stick. He's leading the league with 11.7 apg, has an AST% of 47.5% (league-high) against 17.8% TOV (which is very good, and better than many seasons of Magic and Nash), and crushes it in all of the various passing metrics. So using his raw TPG isn't really an effective way of attacking his play.

Ball is not scoring well. This is clear. He's bombing away from three, but again, perfunctory examination of the team explains why. He has NOTHING around him, and is making a lot happen with his playmaking anyway. And the floor-raising value of even crappy scoring like Ball, Cade, Trae and Barnes provide. But of them all, Ball is exerting the most offensive impact for a reason.

It's not far different with Trae. Yes, in both cases, it would be better if they had the option to not shoot so much, but who else is going to handle the scoring volume? No one on those teams is worth shuffling the load.

I'm not attacking. I have nothing personally against either player. I want to see them grow. But, there needs to be an understanding of what that means. Look at someone like Brunson.

JALEN BRUNSON
48.6 FG% (on 18.4 FGA)
39.1 3PT% (on 5.9 3PA)
60.4 TS%
7.3 AST
2.4 TO
3.04 AST/TO
26 PPG
Record: 29-16

LAMELO BALL
42.1 FG% (on 24.1 FGA)
33.5 3PT% (on 12.8 3PA)
55.0 TS%
7.6 AST
3.9 TO
1.95 AST/TO
29.3 PPG
Record: 11-28

TRAE YOUNG
40.2 FG% (on 17.5 FGA)
34.9 3PT% (on 8.7 3PA)
56.4 TS%
11.7 AST
4.5 TO
2.6 AST/TO
23.0 PPG
Record: 22-20

We are not cavemen. The days of looking at raw numbers are over. I am so optimistic about Cade because his percentages are in range of where they need to be. He just has to clean up his turnovers. LaMelo and Trae, on the other hand, are literally making their teams worse by shooting so much. The defense WANTS them to keep doing what they're doing, because it's not serious basketball. Efficiency is EVERYTHING. Protecting the ball is EVERYTHING. Otherwise, what are we talking about? This isn't a circus. It's about winning games... and, they just are not playing like winning players.

Without question, someone like Brunson is having a better season than both LaMelo and Trae. He is top 10 in assists and points on a top team, with very good efficiency and low turnovers. I have no doubt that every coach would choose him over both. I think that someone like LaVine would be preferred by a lot of coaches over both. These guys are textbook cancers at this point in their careers. It's extremely difficult to see either on a championship team. Neither have the efficiency to be a first option on one... probably, not even a second. Then, as a third option, both would begin to look a lot like Jordan Poole, Ricky Davis, etc. Both need to make drastic internal improvements, or change their style of play... and all of the coaches around the league know this. But hey, they are popular.

[tsherkin]

I'm not attacking.

Attacking, critiquing, whatever.

We are not cavemen. The days of looking at raw numbers are over. I am so optimistic about Cade because his percentages are in range of where they need to be. He just has to clean up his turnovers.

He does have to clean up his turnovers. And fix many issues with his scoring.

LaMelo and Trae, on the other hand, are literally making their teams worse by shooting so much.

No, that isn't correct. You can't just look at their efficiency and assume you could shift those shots to a teammate effectively and have a better look. Both are already doing that in volume, and the scoring talent around them isn't very good. SOMEONE has to take the shots, and someone has to generate those looks as well.

Without question, someone like Brunson is having a better season than both LaMelo and Trae.

Sure, but that's an apples to rhinos comparison, so it isn't really salient in any way.

[MrBigShot]

Vintage Cade tonight. 7/26 shooting.

Shows 3 years of this garbage type of zero impact play. Plaiyng 20 games of good basketball and some think Cade isn't actually the most overrated player in NBA history.

This isn't accurate.

His playmaking alone has him a clear positive on offense. He isn't elite and his scoring holds him back, but to suggest he has "garbage type of zero impact play" is startlingly ignorant. He is very much not "the most overrated player in NBA history," that isn't an especially apt or insightful remark at all.

His assist to turnover ratio being mediocre to poor? puts a clamp on how valuable his playmaking is, even if it is a positive we can`t really praise him for 10 turnovers with 7 assists and say that its really his teams fault because they are stupid. The best playmakers make reads and adjustments before things happen and during the game.

Odd player, the volume stats kind of scream star to me, but its tough to know the true value. I found it a bit hilarious that bball ref had his similarity scores through 3 years with true greats like Isaac Bonga, Daequan Cook and Moochie Norris. Thats a high bar to reach.

Similarity score? Really? Your basketball insight unironically has close to zero value. You cited a stat that is completely and totally worthless for a guy 39 games into his 4th season (3rd full, missed almost all of his 4th year) and made it very evident that a) you haven't watched a minute of Cade and b) have very little grasp on stats. Most of the posters who have criticized Cade in this thread (outside of Cpt Crunch) at least had some substance to their criticism.

Anyway...Cade's turnovers need to go down for him to take that next step. I don't necessarily think it's fair to blame the rest of the team, because with the added shooting of Beasley/Harris/Hardaway Jr he actually has more spacing than he's ever had. It would be. nice if we had a big that could consistently stretch the floor too, but most of Cade's turnovers are just being lazy/telegraphed or being too ambitious with some of his passes. With the way he's improved this season I fully expect him to shore that weakness up.

[tsherkin]

With the way he's improved this season I fully expect him to shore that weakness up.

I have more confidence in him continuing to improve as a playmaker than I do with his ultimate ceiling as a scorer, no doubt. He's got a pretty decent feel for passing and all that, I think he's got a lot to work with there.

EDIT: Woooof... I say tonight, as he has 7 assists and 6 turnovers...

[Jakay]

{ raw_stats_to_make_point }

We are not cavemen. The days of looking at raw numbers are over.

But I totally agree with your greater point.

[Mr Peanut]

What is the argument for Trae being "definitely a better player than Cade is right now"? Very curious to hear that one. Maybe in seasons gone by, but not currently.

He's a considerably superior playmaker. Not a better scorer, but he is better at drawing fouls and he's much better at protecting the ball. His offensive impact stats also signal significant advantage.

Trae averages 2 more assists per game more than Cade although he does have a superior supporting cast to pass to, including guys like Jalen Johnson who himself has a good case to make the AS team.

There are no stats to support your "much better at protecting the ball" theory - they both average 4.5 turnovers per game but Cade has a higher usage than Trae at 32.1% vs 28.5%.

What advantage Trae may be considered to have on the offensive end is then largely negated by his defense (or lack thereof). Cade routinely guards the opposing team's best player - recent examples being KD, LeBron etc. Trae has to be hidden on the opposing team's worst offensive guard and even then he gives up a significant amount of points. I don't love EPM as a stat but if we want to use it here then Trae is a significantly negative defender at -1.5 DEPM while Cade is positive at +0.3.

It's also good timing that Cade just went into State Farm Arena tonight and dropped 29/11/6 leading his team to a win. Trae? 13/9.

[Han Solo]

Pistons are the 6th seed. Take Cade away from that team, and they are worst than last year. Pick his game apart all you want. All he seems to care about is winning. He makes people around him better. His is next.

[Special_Puppy]

Is Cade a top 25 player in the league now?

[Han Solo]

Is Cade a top 25 player in the league now?

This exact time last year Pistons were 4-39

[DLoMor]

Is it just me or have the Pistons been playing better since Ivey got injured?

[Mr Peanut]

Is Cade a top 25 player in the league now?

He is to those who watch him play the majority of his games, but isn't to those who get hung up on rTS% or the amount of turnovers and use those as their sole measuring stick.

He's basically taken a 15-20 win roster without him and has them on track to win 45 games or so. If that's not deserving of being called a top 25 player then I wonder what is.

[tmorgan]

Is it just me or have the Pistons been playing better since Ivey got injured?

No, it’s not just you. Ivey played a lot of minutes and is a pretty bad defender. The guys absorbing his minutes are better defenders by quite a bit (Ausar, Holland, even Beasley), enough to compensate for any offensive hit we’ve taken.

Ivey has the second (or third, if you squint at Ausar) highest potential on the team, though, and we’re missing valuable development time. Still sucks. And Cade is carrying way too much load as a ball handler with Ivey out, too.

[tsherkin]

There are no stats to support your "much better at protecting the ball" theory - they both average 4.5 turnovers per game but Cade has a higher usage than Trae at 32.1% vs 28.5%.

I mean, his actual TOV% against his assist volume with usage in the neighborhood does it nicely, I think.

It's also good timing that Cade just went into State Farm Arena tonight and dropped 29/11/6 leading his team to a win.

How about those 10 turnovers? 4 of which came in the 4th. Didn't want to mention those, did you? Cade was shooting well, but that was a little ugly.

Trae definitely had an ugly game as well; I wouldn't be crowing about either.

[NYPiston]

Pistons are the 6th seed. Take Cade away from that team, and they are worst than last year. Pick his game apart all you want. All he seems to care about is winning. He makes people around him better. His is next.

Yep, he's carrying this franchise more than any other player right now. I can't think of an All Star level player on a decent to good team with a worse supporting cast now that Ivey is out. 10-3 on the road in their last 13 and lots of those wins against playoff or play-in teams, Cade is the definition of a player carrying the team on his back.

Also, while the turnovers are alarming and some are due to laziness on Cade's part (partially due to fatigue I'd imagine), a lot of it is due to his insanely high usage and the fact that they literally have zero ballhandlers to lessen the load on him so teams just blitz him all the time.

[NYPiston]

How about those 10 turnovers? 4 of which came in the 4th. Didn't want to mention those, did you? Cade was shooting well, but that was a little ugly.

Trae definitely had an ugly game as well; I wouldn't be crowing about either.

The outcome of the game was pretty much decided already at that point so there's an asterisk on that turnover count.

[tsherkin]

How about those 10 turnovers? 4 of which came in the 4th. Didn't want to mention those, did you? Cade was shooting well, but that was a little ugly.

Trae definitely had an ugly game as well; I wouldn't be crowing about either.

The outcome of the game was pretty much decided already at that point so there's an asterisk on that turnover count.

Not really. He had 6 turnovers through 3 quarters to begin with. And then he was quite involved in the 4th quarter. He came in with 9:25 left and a 17-point lead. 3 bad passes and then Johnson got the steal on him. That's... pretty par for the course with him, leastwise the first 3, which was the point. He was just doing Cade things. his scoring was good that game, but his ball protection was atrocious. Sloppy passing all game long, which is why he ended up with a nearly 1:1 AST:TOV that game. It's not like he was firing bullets his teammates couldn't handle.

Part of it is that he throws a lot of one-handed passes. Those are frequently the ones which get picked, at least in the games which I've watched. It's a good skill to develop, as it opens up a lot of faster passes and opportunities, so one can view it from a developmental lens and see good things coming down the pipe, for sure. But it wouldn't be sensible to ignore the turnover issues.

[Mr Peanut]

There are no stats to support your "much better at protecting the ball" theory - they both average 4.5 turnovers per game but Cade has a higher usage than Trae at 32.1% vs 28.5%.

I mean, his actual TOV% against his assist volume with usage in the neighborhood does it nicely, I think.

It's also good timing that Cade just went into State Farm Arena tonight and dropped 29/11/6 leading his team to a win.

How about those 10 turnovers? 4 of which came in the 4th. Didn't want to mention those, did you? Cade was shooting well, but that was a little ugly.

Trae definitely had an ugly game as well; I wouldn't be crowing about either.

What are you talking about? Trae's TOV% is even higher than Cade's at 17.9%. Cade is 17.4%.

Four of those Cade turnovers essentially came at a time when the Pistons were almost certainly going to win. Not ideal sure, but didn't influence the outcome of the game.

This is the classic argument from Cade detractors. Ignore all the positive data (29/11/6 leading his team to a win in Atlanta) and just try to use a single stat (turnovers) to negate the rest.

Going back to the original point is that he thoroughly outplayed Trae Young, as he has done all season.