Wembanyama, I'm concerned (Part 2)

[Bolivar]

I don't think you can win a title with wemby as the number one option. He's like Pippen to me, an all time good second option. Well see, but I dont think he has the tools or skillset.

How though? We’ve never seen a big man with the tools/skill set that Wemby has. When he gets stronger and stops shooting so many threes he will be unstoppable on the offensive end. Well he will be be unstoppable on both ends..

Sure but is it a given that he will look like prime David Robinson in a few years (just taller)? Of course not. Some of the Wembanyama discussion is based on assumptions, like "you take his potential + his rookie/sophomore seasons + put it in an excel and make a graph and out comes multiple championships". That's nice and all but until he's actually a dominant force in competitive basketball (not some regular season showcase games ) it's other teams & players fighting for championships. Not really concerned though

[gottamakeit]

I don't think you can win a title with wemby as the number one option. He's like Pippen to me, an all time good second option. Well see, but I dont think he has the tools or skillset.

Pippens can get you chips in today's NBA. A well-constructed roster is more of a requirement for a chip, than having an incredibly dominant superstar.

[hauntedcomputer]

He's a sky hook away from 50K career points with the rest of his game. Needs some lower body strength but he's built like Kareem only more fluid.

Sometimes you just need two points.

[Rust_Cohle]

They are in a weird position now, because they are too good to get a top pick, but not good enough to compete, and they lack the young talent to make a significant trade for help.

For the season sure, but they have a treasure cb sat do draft picks to package in a trade and cap flexibility to nab that #2 star. They are probably second to only the Thunder for options

Which picks? Not doubting you, just genuinely don't know.

Usually you need some top end young talent to trade with picks to acquire the star type players though, and I just don't think the Spurs have anyone THAT valuable after Wemby.

Many teams don’t own their picks or have very few over the next 5 years. San Antonio on the other hand has a ton. For teams looking to shed salary taking back picks and salary dumps from SA would be ideal:

https://fanspo.com/nba/teams/san-antonio-spurs/27/draft-picks

[OhayoKD]

I don't think you can win a title with wemby as the number one option. He's like Pippen to me, an all time good second option. Well see, but I dont think he has the tools or skillset.

He's averaging 24 ppg and is one of the best defensive players in the league. Just turned 21. This is not his final form…

One of?

Respect the goat

[tsherkin]

I don't think you can win a title with wemby as the number one option. He's like Pippen to me, an all time good second option. Well see, but I dont think he has the tools or skillset.

Pippens can get you chips in today's NBA. A well-constructed roster is more of a requirement for a chip, than having an incredibly dominant superstar.

What Pippen has won in the last 20 years? You'd have to go back to the 04 Pistons for that to be kind of true, and they were a defensive champion on a slow-paced, possession control era which was wildly different from today's game (and most of NBA history).

[jasonxxx102]

He's a sky hook away from 50K career points with the rest of his game. Needs some lower body strength but he's built like Kareem only more fluid.

Sometimes you just need two points.

Why take a 2 when there's a perfectly good pull up 30 footer worth 3 points?

[tsherkin]

He's a sky hook away from 50K career points with the rest of his game. Needs some lower body strength but he's built like Kareem only more fluid.

Sometimes you just need two points.

Why take a 2 when there's a perfectly good pull up 30 footer worth 3 points?

lol

If Wemby developed a skyhook, that'd be horrifying. Him being able to catch inside 15 feet and take a 50% look from the baselines would be pretty gnarly.

[CBS7]

3 point skyhook is in Wemby's future

[zimpy27]

How do we think he's going compared to last season?

I think he's clearly improved his scoring efficiency, largely due to improve 3%. He's taking less bad 3s and being assisted more on 3s compared to last season.

I don't think he's really improved his numbers in other areas as you can see by the chart. But it's also worth noting that he started slow last season and therefore may also have started slow this season compared to his end season stats.

But maybe he doesn't improve numbers in other areas, maybe he does just work towards getting the TS% up to ~65% at peak.

[ryan in Maine]

What if Wembanyama added the KG shoulder juke?

[bledredwine]

I don't think you can win a title with wemby as the number one option. He's like Pippen to me, an all time good second option. Well see, but I dont think he has the tools or skillset.

Pippens can get you chips in today's NBA. A well-constructed roster is more of a requirement for a chip, than having an incredibly dominant superstar.

I think that the NBA gives this illusion right now because the only legit superstars are international players.

A Jokic, Luka, etc can definitely win you a chip, but of course a solid supporting cast is usually needed.
Star power almost always prevails in the playoffs; the Celtics are an exception because they were stacked with great
2-way players.

[web123888]

I don't think you can win a title with wemby as the number one option. He's like Pippen to me, an all time good second option. Well see, but I dont think he has the tools or skillset.

Pippens can get you chips in today's NBA. A well-constructed roster is more of a requirement for a chip, than having an incredibly dominant superstar.

What Pippen has won in the last 20 years? You'd have to go back to the 04 Pistons for that to be kind of true, and they were a defensive champion on a slow-paced, possession control era which was wildly different from today's game (and most of NBA history).

Jayson Tatum isn’t that much better, if at all, than peak Scottie Pippen. It’s especially true given his playoffs offensive output. When you convert for pace and shot attempts in the modern era, it’s questionable if Tatum is even a better scorer at all. Certainly overall offense is up for debate given how much superior Pippen is as a playmaker.

[tsherkin]

Jayson Tatum isn’t that much better, if at all, than peak Scottie Pippen. It’s especially true given his playoffs offensive output. When you convert for pace and shot attempts in the modern era, it’s questionable if Tatum is even a better scorer at all. Certainly overall offense is up for debate given how much superior Pippen is as a playmaker.

Tatum is a very large difference in offensive gravity compared to Pippen, despite his Finals performances. HIs actual draw on defense is significant.

There is zero question that Pippen is a much, much worse scorer than Tatum, and Pippen's playmaking is a little overrated. He was good at it, but Tatum is pretty good at it as well. That gap isn't huge.

[KG Leonard]

Jayson Tatum isn’t that much better, if at all, than peak Scottie Pippen. It’s especially true given his playoffs offensive output. When you convert for pace and shot attempts in the modern era, it’s questionable if Tatum is even a better scorer at all. Certainly overall offense is up for debate given how much superior Pippen is as a playmaker.

Tatum is a very large difference in offensive gravity compared to Pippen, despite his Finals performances. HIs actual draw on defense is significant.

There is zero question that Pippen is a much, much worse scorer than Tatum, and Pippen's playmaking is a little overrated. He was good at it, but Tatum is pretty good at it as well. That gap isn't huge.

Next they will say Gary Payton is better scorer than Tatum jesus, Pippen as s scorer can't even be compared. Scoring is up as an excuse to look down on historic playoffs scorer like Tatum? Don't people watch the actual NBA playoffs?

Tatum is beating scoring feats by Bird, Havlicek and not to mention other ATG with his playoffs scoring performance. Regular season stats don't matter there.

I don't remember Pippen having scoring ability like 50 points in game 7 Vs Philly or 46 points Vs Bucks away when they were champions. Well said about the gravity, that poster is making it sound like Pippen carried the offensive load like an MJ.

[Optms]

Am I gonna get ostracized if I say he shoots WAY too many threes?

At this point, it's like you walking into your local McDonalds and complaining everyone is eating beef.

[tsherkin]

Am I gonna get ostracized if I say he shoots WAY too many threes?

At this point, it's like you walking into your local McDonalds and complaining everyone is eating beef.

Nah, it's a legit concern. When his 3 goes, he doesn't seem to have an answer for what to fall back on besides bricking more threes. It's a worthwhile thing to note. There are good examples of guys who balance it all together in various places around the league. Tatum, and Boston in general, is an example of a polar extreme.

Next they will say Gary Payton is better scorer than Tatum jesus, Pippen as s scorer can't even be compared. Scoring is up as an excuse to look down on historic playoffs scorer like Tatum? Don't people watch the actual NBA playoffs?

Tatum is beating scoring feats by Bird, Havlicek and not to mention other ATG with his playoffs scoring performance. Regular season stats don't matter there.

I don't remember Pippen having scoring ability like 50 points in game 7 Vs Philly or 46 points Vs Bucks away when they were champions. Well said about the gravity, that poster is making it sound like Pippen carried the offensive load like an MJ.

Yeah. I mean, I'm quick to have some things to say about Tatum in certain kinds of conversations, and I was a Pippen fan in the 90s, but the idea that Pippen is a comparable scorer to Tatum is a bit of a joke. And outside of the Finals, Tatum's playoff offense has been pretty good. And he's made some notable strides as a playmaker. Pippen produced assists well in the triangle and even in late, in Houston and Portland, he showed good court awareness and playmaking and stuff, but I never saw a huge gap in what he was doing compared to what Tatum is doing right now.

Pippen definitely didn't carry the load. He was the leading scorer in 94 and 95, sure, but he was only okay at that and he dropped off in the playoffs. Tatum, for whatever faults one might assign him, scores a fair amount for Boston and Pippen has never come close to his per-possession scoring rate. Tatum's on like his 4th or 5th straight season of 36+ PTS100. Pip was mostly a < 0.9 ScoreVal guy, hovering around PlayVal of 1, never got north of 23.4 inflation-adjusted points per 75, had two seasons with Chicago with an rTS% better than 1.6% (and they were early, while the league was faster), 5-6 Box Creation, Passer Rating of 6-7.

Sticking with just the stats for a second, Tatum's at a similar ScoreVal, PlayVal, averages around 27 IA-PTS75, rTS% his 2.4% in 2023, Box Creation of 8-10, Passer Rating around 5.

Come 2024, 24.3 IA-PTS75, +2.4% rTS again, Box Creation 10, Passer Rating 7.3, ScoreVal 0, PlayVal 1.3.

2025 so far, 27.9 IA-PTS75, +1.9% rTS, Box Creation 10.7, Passer Rating 6.0, ScoreVal 1.0, PlayVal 1.1.

So you're seeing no real separation as a playmaker (which matches watching the two play) and that he's scoring more on what is typically a superior rTS on that larger volume. There's something like a 6- to 7-point difference in raw PTS100 between the two, and Tatum's really just playing at late 80s/early 90s pace, which is back when Pippen was able to score efficiently with his lack of reliable range and with more transition possessions. Obviously, there's something to be said for that helping Tatum, as well as the embrace of the 3, but the short three didn't help Scottie that much from 95-97, when he was still just a 103 TS+ guy with a 3PAr of .292, which is fairly contemporary (and was .239, .333 and .310, for clarity). 30% of his shots were threes and he wasn't clearly +2% rTS in any of those seasons, because he wasn't that good a shooter, which was part of his limitation. And because a boob at the foul line, too.




So that's a lot of stat rant, but it's clear that Tatum supports higher volume on better efficiency while functioning to create for his teammates at least as well (despite higher offensive load) and summoning strong D along the way.

Pippen is a bad comparison.

[dhsilv2]

I don't think you can win a title with wemby as the number one option. He's like Pippen to me, an all time good second option. Well see, but I dont think he has the tools or skillset.

How though? We’ve never seen a big man with the tools/skill set that Wemby has. When he gets stronger and stops shooting so many threes he will be unstoppable on the offensive end. Well he will be be unstoppable on both ends..

You're right If he does those things. Personally I'm skeptical he will. He seems dedicated to being an outside shooter. He's not bad at it, but he's not nearly good enough doing it to make this an effective play style as a number one title option. Imo anyway.

So make his the second option? Can still be the GOAT and not the first option. PPG aren't that important.

[UglyBugBall]

How though? We’ve never seen a big man with the tools/skill set that Wemby has. When he gets stronger and stops shooting so many threes he will be unstoppable on the offensive end. Well he will be be unstoppable on both ends..

You're right If he does those things. Personally I'm skeptical he will. He seems dedicated to being an outside shooter. He's not bad at it, but he's not nearly good enough doing it to make this an effective play style as a number one title option. Imo anyway.

So make his the second option? Can still be the GOAT and not the first option. PPG aren't that important.

There's no chance a player can be the GOAT as the second option.

[tsherkin]

There's no chance a player can be the GOAT as the second option.

Bill Russell would like a word.