Why can't Banchero uplift this team like Franz could?

[eyriq]

You and others say Suggs isn't impactful while on the court, then say he's better off the court because you pushed up your glasses and read the internet without context.

Is this anything?

On | Off (Minutes, Net rating) from games where all three played

KCP, Suggs | AB (546, +4.15)
AB | KCP, Suggs (232, +1.77)
KCP, AB | Suggs (194, +14.95)
Suggs, AB | KCP (179, -4.75)
KCP, Suggs, AB | (123, -12.65)
| KCP, Suggs, AB (69, -10.70)
KCP | Suggs, AB (57, +11.70)
Suggs | KCP, AB (39, +7.59)

KCP appears to be the most impactful player overall due to his consistent positive influence.

AB is effective when paired with KCP but less impactful otherwise.

Suggs shows promise in limited scenarios but generally drags down performance in certain combinations, particularly in the full three-player lineup.

[VFX]

You and others say Suggs isn't impactful while on the court, then say he's better off the court because you pushed up your glasses and read the internet without context.

Is this anything?

On | Off (Minutes, Net rating) from games where all three played

KCP, Suggs | AB (546, +4.15)
AB | KCP, Suggs (232, +1.77)
KCP, AB | Suggs (194, +14.95)
Suggs, AB | KCP (179, -4.75)
KCP, Suggs, AB | (123, -12.65)
| KCP, Suggs, AB (69, -10.70)
KCP | Suggs, AB (57, +11.70)
Suggs | KCP, AB (39, +7.59)

KCP appears to be the most impactful player overall due to his consistent positive influence.

AB is effective when paired with KCP but less impactful otherwise.

Suggs shows promise in limited scenarios but generally drags down performance in certain combinations, particularly in the full three-player lineup.

Again, context.

KCP is a 12 year veteran that knows exactly what his role is. He isnt playing point guard and does 1 or 2 things well. I expect nothing less from a guy who's whole job on offense is catching and shooting the ball. I dont even really see the comparison. His numbers have also dropped off since signing.

Anthony Black is playing against bench units for the majority of his minutes, especially when Suggs and KCP are in starting lineups. It's like comparing numbers playing against Tyler Herro and Haywood Highsmith.

Suggs, this season, is playing point guard and tasked with initiating all offense when Franz and/or Paolo isn't on the court. That has been for ALL but 4 games. It is no surprise his best game of the season by +/- was WITH Franz Wagner on the court. Second best? The first game of the season WITH BOTH Paolo and Franz.

This is why pulling random numbers out across the entirety of the season without context in these assertions is meaningless. His +\- with both guys in 4 games is like +3.5 or something off the top of my head. Since December 8th, when Franz went down, it was like -1.5 without either guy, and about even with Franz and no Paolo.

It's like common sense. Players look better in different roles. There is absolutely a reason why drsd is using these metrics from this season and not last season.

[eyriq]

You and others say Suggs isn't impactful while on the court, then say he's better off the court because you pushed up your glasses and read the internet without context.

Is this anything?

On | Off (Minutes, Net rating) from games where all three played

KCP, Suggs | AB (546, +4.15)
AB | KCP, Suggs (232, +1.77)
KCP, AB | Suggs (194, +14.95)
Suggs, AB | KCP (179, -4.75)
KCP, Suggs, AB | (123, -12.65)
| KCP, Suggs, AB (69, -10.70)
KCP | Suggs, AB (57, +11.70)
Suggs | KCP, AB (39, +7.59)

KCP appears to be the most impactful player overall due to his consistent positive influence.

AB is effective when paired with KCP but less impactful otherwise.

Suggs shows promise in limited scenarios but generally drags down performance in certain combinations, particularly in the full three-player lineup.

Again, context.

KCP is a 12 year veteran that knows exactly what his role is. He isnt playing point guard and does 1 or 2 things well. I expect nothing less from a guy who's whole job on offense is catching and shooting the ball. I dont even really see the comparison. His numbers have also dropped off since signing.

Anthony Black is playing against bench units for the majority of his minutes, especially when Suggs and KCP are in starting lineups. It's like comparing numbers playing against Tyler Herro and Haywood Highsmith.

Suggs, this season, is playing point guard and tasked with initiating all offense when Franz and/or Paolo isn't on the court. That has been for ALL but 4 games. It is no surprise his best game of the season by +/- was WITH Franz Wagner on the court. Second best? The first game of the season WITH BOTH Paolo and Franz.

This is why pulling random numbers out across the entirety of the season without context in these assertions is meaningless. His +\- with both guys in 4 games is like +3.5 or something off the top of my head. Since December 8th, when Franz went down, it was like -1.5 without either guy, and about even with Franz and no Paolo.

It's like common sense. Players look better in different roles. There is absolutely a reason why drsd is using these metrics from this season and not last season.

I don't think it's meaningless data. It's an indication of impact. Is it the end all be all? Of course not. Rotations are a huge component. This doesn't control for rotations. It's does control for quality of opponent since this is from games all three played.

Sweater vest points provide another vantage point. Suggs leads KCP by 1 point and AB by... 3? I don't remember exactly.

The point that I've been making is that while Suggs plays a vital role, his absence isn't a big factor in understanding the team's struggles since Paolo returned. Strength of schedule, Paolo ramping up, team illness, and Franz's injury are the big factors. You may not like this perspective but I at least hope I've illustrated why it's at least a reasonable take.

[RichCollab]

You and others say Suggs isn't impactful while on the court, then say he's better off the court because you pushed up your glasses and read the internet without context.

Is this anything?

On | Off (Minutes, Net rating) from games where all three played

KCP, Suggs | AB (546, +4.15)
AB | KCP, Suggs (232, +1.77)
KCP, AB | Suggs (194, +14.95)
Suggs, AB | KCP (179, -4.75)
KCP, Suggs, AB | (123, -12.65)
| KCP, Suggs, AB (69, -10.70)
KCP | Suggs, AB (57, +11.70)
Suggs | KCP, AB (39, +7.59)

KCP appears to be the most impactful player overall due to his consistent positive influence.

AB is effective when paired with KCP but less impactful otherwise.

Suggs shows promise in limited scenarios but generally drags down performance in certain combinations, particularly in the full three-player lineup.

Suggs is on the floor 100% of the time when the other teams best player is on the floor. He plays all critical and clutch times. Maybe that has some influence?

[Idiosyncratic]

You and others say Suggs isn't impactful while on the court, then say he's better off the court because you pushed up your glasses and read the internet without context.

Is this anything?

On | Off (Minutes, Net rating) from games where all three played

KCP, Suggs | AB (546, +4.15)
AB | KCP, Suggs (232, +1.77)
KCP, AB | Suggs (194, +14.95)
Suggs, AB | KCP (179, -4.75)
KCP, Suggs, AB | (123, -12.65)
| KCP, Suggs, AB (69, -10.70)
KCP | Suggs, AB (57, +11.70)
Suggs | KCP, AB (39, +7.59)

KCP appears to be the most impactful player overall due to his consistent positive influence.

AB is effective when paired with KCP but less impactful otherwise.

Suggs shows promise in limited scenarios but generally drags down performance in certain combinations, particularly in the full three-player lineup.

Suggs is on the floor 100% of the time when the other teams best player is on the floor. He plays all critical and clutch times. Maybe that has some influence?

It does have some influence.

Suggs has grown on me, I originally thought he would be a player to package for a 3rd star, but I do think he's really good now.

I do think eyriq's argument has some merit though. On/off numbers have never really liked Suggs. Even last year when he shot it well, the team didn't perform significantly better with him on the floor. There can be a lot of noise with stats like this, but it is something worth keeping an eye on IMO.

My take is I like Suggs and think he's very important. But this team is so early in it's development it is worth keeping a tab on how things evolve and who performs the best together.

[drsd]

My take on this narrative:

1) the Magic will have F-Wagner, Bitadze, and Suggs back soon.
2) The Magic's schedule is silky soft to close out.

Banchero's chance to shine starts very soon!

[pepe1991]

My take on this narrative:

1) the Magic will have F-Wagner, Bitadze, and Suggs back soon.
2) The Magic's schedule is silky soft to close out.

Banchero's chance to shine starts very soon!

There is no "easy "schedule, rather just playing Wizards more than average nba team and their "hard" or " average" SOS.



In last 19 games, Magic will play play in or playoff teams - 15 times. There is nobody to fall from play in race but Bulls ( and given what's going on with 76ers, that's not really probable ).

Strength of schedule (SOS) is complete garbage of data.
It just calculates win percentages.
Why it's garbage?

You play let's say:
24-17 team
31-13 team
27-16 team
10-32 team
6-36 team

98/114 = average win rate of those teams is 46% = 3rd easiest schedule.

All those teams are real teams ( record vise) , in reality you play: Bucks, Cavs, Nuggets, Wizards and Jazz.

in 3/5 games you aren't favorite but Jazz and especially Wizards (14% win rate) tear down win percentage. Without them your SOS on Bucks/Cavs / Nuggets would be 64% (toughest schedule is 54% ).

So to elaborate how strength of schedule works: Easiest schedule = playing most games vs worst team (s).
"Hardest schedule" = having worst team least amount of time.

In reality it means nothing. It's something that is useful with 5 games left to play.

[SOUL]

^Yeah.

Well, not that there is no "easy schedule", it's that SOS isn't static. It can be easiest schedule left, play 5 bad teams, hardest schedule left, play 5 good teams, easiest schedule left, etc.

[LongHairedBob]

Paolo is probably a month away from being back 100%. The type of injury he had he couldn't train or do anything. Paolo carried the team last season for a period when Franz was out.

Typical Magic fan overreaction thread who always expects immediate results. Paolo is still on a minute restriction, which would tell you he's not 100% yet. We were also healthier when we had a stretch of winning with Franz. Franz was 100%, Goga was 100%, Suggs was 100%, and Moe was 100%.


Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

Exactly.

[The-Stallion70]

Paolo is probably a month away from being back 100%. The type of injury he had he couldn't train or do anything. Paolo carried the team last season for a period when Franz was out.

Typical Magic fan overreaction thread who always expects immediate results. Paolo is still on a minute restriction, which would tell you he's not 100% yet. We were also healthier when we had a stretch of winning with Franz. Franz was 100%, Goga was 100%, Suggs was 100%, and Moe was 100%.


Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

Exactly.

Sure then let's not place higher expectations on Franz then given he had the same injury.

[VFX]

Most shocking aspect of Suggs / Fraz /Goga injuries is how mediocre( a hell with it, flat out bad) Banchero is on defense.

It's hard to decide is he worst on perimeter or around rim. But by far worst in pick&roll.

I said this when he was drafted, and prior to the draft. Hes not good defensively and pedestrian as a rebounder for someone 6’10.

You almost certainly need a defensive anchor, rim protection, and rebounder next to him in just about any system . Goga is that player. Without him, and with Carter, you have a worse front court than many would notice.

Without Suggs and Franz the defense puts too much pressure on Goga.

[Knightro]

Magic 22-14 with Goga.

1-8 without Goga.

Need the big man back ASAP.

[LongHairedBob]

We do need Goga but Paolo is a good defender.

https://www.nba.com/magic/news/paolo-banchero-deserves-just-as-much-praise-for-his-defense-as-his-offense-20240108

[msmoore66]

1-14 so far. We have to trade him right? We need to get out of his contract. (I'm doing the overreaction thing correctly?)

[msmoore66]

Missed 7 FTs today.... On. The. Block. (Am I doing this overreacting thing correctly?)

[RookieStar]

Missed 7 FTs today.... On. The. Block. (Am I doing this overreacting thing correctly?)

Too tame. You gotta give it more ooomf.

Say something like " i wonder if we need to attacge our 2 FRPs for someone to take Paolo off our hands "

[msmoore66]

Missed 7 FTs today.... On. The. Block. (Am I doing this overreacting thing correctly?)

Too tame. You gotta give it more ooomf.

Say something like " i wonder if we need to attacge our 2 FRPs for someone to take Paolo off our hands "

I still have a long long way to go.