Retro Player of the Year 2008-09 UPDATE — Lebron James

[70sFan]

Obviously not, but you'd expect a high usage from a heliocentric guy. Kobe was definitely heliocentric for the times, though I have said before I think his inability to run an offense would create problems for him today. When a guard has the ball that much you want him to be able to run your offense. Kobe can't play like the Booker type 2 guard either, he's not a good enough 3pt shooter or offball player.

Hyping Booker as a better off-ball player than prime Kobe is ridiculous.

[One_and_Done]

Booker is much better offball in the ways that matter. Kobe likes to hold it and dribble, post up, go into one of ten moves, and then throw up a contested midranger. Nice if you like that sort of thing I guess, but 'offball' is not how I would have characterised Kobe's general playstyle on offense.

[70sFan]

Booker is much better offball in the ways that matter. Kobe likes to hold it and dribble, post up, go into one of ten moves, and then throw up a contested midranger. Nice if you like that sort of thing I guess, but 'offball' is not how I would have characterised Kobe's general playstyle on offense.

It's the most stereotypical description of Kobe's offensive game I have seen in a long time. Have a good time creating narratives, I prefer talking about what actually happened on the basketball court.

[Jaivl]

Kobe likes to hold it and dribble, post up, go into one of ten moves, and then throw up a contested midranger.

Doesn't even matter, as his rivals this year are LeBron (only likes to runs fast and dunk), Wade (only likes to run fast and dunk) and Howard (only dunks). Honestly, I'd take Brandon Roy over all of them -- a truly skillful player that can shoot 3s.

[OhayoKD]

I mean, if you swapped out Mitchell for Kobe on the Cavs, the Cavs might get worse. As a pretty heliocentric player he's a bad fit on the 25 Cavs. In a vacuum you'd very probably build around Kobe though. I'd certainly take SGA or Luka or Giannis over Kobe to build around, but 2 of those guys need more longevity to place ahead of him all-time.

2009 Kobe a heliocentric player?

I meant in general, but even for 09 yes. His usage % was over 32. Given the different play style at the time that is incredibly high. Heck, Luka's career average usage is only 35%. Harden, the Helio-king, only has 4 seasons clearly above that (and the 5th is only 0.3 higher). Not sure where you got the idea Kobe wasn't a heliocentric player tbh.

Usage is not a measure of heliocentrism

[jjgp111292]

I mean, if you swapped out Mitchell for Kobe on the Cavs, the Cavs might get worse. As a pretty heliocentric player he's a bad fit on the 25 Cavs. In a vacuum you'd very probably build around Kobe though. I'd certainly take SGA or Luka or Giannis over Kobe to build around, but 2 of those guys need more longevity to place ahead of him all-time.

2009 Kobe a heliocentric player?

I meant in general, but even for 09 yes. His usage % was over 32. Given the different play style at the time that is incredibly high. Heck, Luka's career average usage is only 35%. Harden, the Helio-king, only has 4 seasons clearly above that (and the 5th is only 0.3 higher). Not sure where you got the idea Kobe wasn't a heliocentric player tbh.

High usage just means you take a lot of shots
and/or make the lion's share of team turnovers when you're on the floor, it doesn't automatically correlate to somebody monopolizing the ballhandling. Carmelo has high usage rates too and nobody would call him a helio. Ditto MJ aside from one stretch in 89.

Hell I'm pretty sure even the creator of the stat said it's not very useful for measuring time of possession and that stuff. It's basically just, "How frequently does this player trigger a change in possession on offense?"

[One_and_Done]

2009 Kobe a heliocentric player?

I meant in general, but even for 09 yes. His usage % was over 32. Given the different play style at the time that is incredibly high. Heck, Luka's career average usage is only 35%. Harden, the Helio-king, only has 4 seasons clearly above that (and the 5th is only 0.3 higher). Not sure where you got the idea Kobe wasn't a heliocentric player tbh.

Usage is not a measure of heliocentrism

Yes, but there isn't a (good) stat for that. High usage tends to correlate with heliocentrism though. Or at least I'd expect to see it if you are heliocentric. It's a necessary but not sufficient condition.

[Djoker]

Yes there is a good stat for heliocentrism. It's created by Thinking Basketball and it's called Offensive Load. Read about it here.

[OhayoKD]

Yes there is a good stat for heliocentrism. It's created by Thinking Basketball and it's called Offensive Load. Read about it here.

It' basically measures the same thing s usage. So no, not really.

[Djoker]

Yes there is a good stat for heliocentrism. It's created by Thinking Basketball and it's called Offensive Load. Read about it here.

It' basically measures the same thing s usage. So no, not really.

It's a dramatic improvement on usage. It considers creation as well.

[AEnigma]

Kobe likes to hold it and dribble, post up, go into one of ten moves, and then throw up a contested midranger.

Doesn't even matter, as his rivals this year are LeBron (only likes to runs fast and dunk), Wade (only likes to run fast and dunk) and Howard (only dunks). Honestly, I'd take Brandon Roy over all of them -- a truly skillful player that can shoot 3s.

Yeah but Roy pounds the air out of the ball.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Lebron James - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. MVP. On the helm of a 66-16 season (64-win by SRS) and a cast of good role players but definitely overachieved a lot. Then the man proceeds to go super saiyan in the PS, putting up ridiculous numbers. Sure this season is an outlier as in surrounding seasons Lebron doesn't do anything like this in the PS with regards to scoring; still this vote is for a single year and his performance is good enough to put him at #1 despite not winning the title and losing as a big favorite in the ECF to the Magic. You can nitpick his clutch play and his defense against the Magic and probably with reason but it's not enough for me to demote him. It's just not. Averaged 28.4/7.6/7.2 on +4.5 rTS in the RS then 35.5/9.1/7.3 on +9.5 rTS in the PS.

2. Kobe Bryant - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Finals MVP. This Kobe season is an easy #1 in most seasons in this project. However it happens to coincide with Lebron's absolute best year and GOAT-level season and so Kobe has to settle for #2 despite leading a 65-17 team (61-win by SRS) and dominating the last two rounds of the PS and winning a championship. He was on autopilot before the final act and it's not good enough for #1. Not this year. Averaged 26.8/5.2/4.9 on +1.7 rTS in the RS then 30.2/5.3/5.5 on +3.6 rTS in the PS.

3. Dwight Howard - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Dwight was an all-star caliber big on offense and an absolute superstar on defense, in fact one of the best defenders ever. A bit of a one-dimensional player on offense who also wasn't a good offensive hub because he couldn't pass well but he was effective. Led the Magic to the Finals with the ECF performance his magnum opus dominating Lebron's Cavaliers who just couldn't handle him down low. Had a pedestrian Finals against a big Lakers team that could definitely handle him. Averaged 20.6/13.8/1.4 on +5.6 rTS in the RS then 20.3/15.3/1.9 on +10.6 rTS in the PS.

4. Dwyane Wade - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. Wade had a low-key legendary RS that gets somewhat forgotten. His PS though was forgettable as he put in a standard-level performance as his team got eliminated in the 1st round by a Hawks team that proceeded to get demolished and swept by the Cavs right after. Averaged 30.2/5.0/7.5 on +3.0 rTS in the RS then 29.1/5.0/5.3 on +3.0 rTS in the PS.

5. Chris Paul - 2nd Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Paul was on his way to a repeat of the 2008 season until he got injured right before the PS. I penalize PS injuries heavily but he's still a step above anyone remaining on this list in the RS that I'm still putting him on my ballot. It's not like the others in the HM did a whole lot more in the PS. Averaged 22.8/5.5/11.0 on +5.5 rTS in the RS then 16.6/4.4/10.4 on -3.1 rTS in the PS.

HM:

Dirk Nowitzki - 1st Team All-NBA. A far lesser RS than CP3 and got steamrolled by the same team in the PS.

Tim Duncan - 2nd Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. Lost in the 1st round and didn't excel.

OPOY

1. Lebron James - Video game numbers. Ridiculous combo of scoring and playmaking.

2. Kobe Bryant - Really good scorer with high volume playmaking.

3. Dwyane Wade - Really good scorer with high volume playmaking. Behind Kobe for having a worse PS.

DPOY

1. Dwight Howard - Hugely impactful rim protector and great rebounders. Deserved DPOY for #1 defense.

2. Kevin Garnett - Likely the most impactful defender in the league but got injured before the end of the RS.

3. Tim Duncan - Still a strong defensive year.

[Special_Puppy]

Why do people consider 2013 LeBron's single season peak and not 2009?

[lessthanjake]

Why do people consider 2013 LeBron's single season peak and not 2009?

I’m not sure whether I think 2009 or 2013 is his peak, but the reason I most often see for 2013 is that he was more resilient as a playoff performer due to having more options at his disposal. He had a better post game, better outside shot, etc. And I think it’s reasonable to think that that made him harder to limit in 2013. But that does run into the fact that LeBron didn’t actually get limited much at all in the 2009 playoffs—indeed, he actually shot well from distance (not as good from three, but his long twos were very good in those playoffs). So I think the playoff resilience argument for 2013 has to rely on one of two ideas: (1) the shooting in the 2009 playoffs was mostly just a product of random variance and so he wasn’t *actually* as resilient that year as he became in 2013, even if the small-sample playoff data might suggest he was; or (2) despite the stats, he actually was meaningfully limited in some way in the 2009 playoffs, as might be suggested by zeroing in on some key moments in the Orlando series where he struggled. Option #2 to me seems a little unfair. I think one could meaningfully criticize his defense in that series, but criticism of his offensive resilience in those playoffs seems quite nitpicky, especially when you could do the same for 2013 anyways. Option #1 to me seems reasonable and probably right to a significant extent. But saying something is variance has two obvious counterpoints: (a) it may simply not be variance and actually have reflected something very real that one year; and (b) even if it was variance, we may only care about what *actually* happened, in which case that variance is simply part of what happened and therefore shouldn’t be discounted. Point (a) doesn’t seem all that strong a point to me since it wasn’t reflected in regular season stats, but Point (b) does strike me as a reasonable viewpoint to take on it. And if one takes that view, then I think it’d be very hard to have 2013 over 2009 if talking about pure individual peak. I’ve always thought that whether you choose 2009 or 2013 probably depends on whether you’re thinking about how well he actually played in reality or whether you’re thinking about which version you would want if you had to do a season/playoffs over again. Of course, what year was his peak for POY purposes is a different question, and probably is straightforwardly 2013 due to the significant difference in team achievements.

[Cavsfansince84]

Why do people consider 2013 LeBron's single season peak and not 2009?

4 things I'd say
1. Improved post game
2. Shot 40% from 3 compared to like 34% in 09
3. ts add is almost double
4. ring vs no ring

So there is an argument for 2013 just as there is for 2016-2018. One thing that I think gets lost about 09 LeBron though is how much pressure he could put on a defense by getting to the rim in 09-10. His ftr was off the charts in the rs and even higher in the playoffs. He never got that level of quickness and explosiveness back but sort of made up for it with passing iq.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Why do people consider 2013 LeBron's single season peak and not 2009?

4 things I'd say
1. Improved post game
2. Shot 40% from 3 compared to like 34% in 09
3. ts add is almost double
4. ring vs no ring

So there is an argument for 2013 just as there is for 2016-2018. One thing that I think gets lost about 09 LeBron though is how much pressure he could put on a defense by getting to the rim in 09-10. His ftr was off the charts in the rs and even higher in the playoffs. He never got that level of quickness and explosiveness back but sort of made up for it with passing iq.

Yeah, in 2013 he was more or less the same defender and playmaker he'd been before, but a more more skilled, efficient scorer. It's also somewhat of an outlier year in that regard - he never got closer than 2.5-3 percentage points away from that 40% from 3 again(in the RS) until a decade later.

I know the 2009 numbers are eye-popping, but I've always found it difficult to think 2009 LeBron was a better player than 2013 LeBron. Heck, even though I've got 2013 as his peak, the most impressed I've ever been watching LeBron was in the 2015 and 2016 Finals.

[TheGOATRises007]

Why do people consider 2013 LeBron's single season peak and not 2009?

Winning bias.

And I used to think 2013 was LeBron's peak too, but 2009 is just clear.

It's hard to conceptualize a player's best year can be when he didn't win the title.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Why do people consider 2013 LeBron's single season peak and not 2009?

Winning bias.

And I used to think 2013 was LeBron's peak too, but 2009 is just clear.

It's hard to conceptualize a player's best year can be when he didn't win the title.

It's not just winning bias, its also an analysis of his game. 2009 he was more athletic/explosive, but not by a tremendous amount (he gained some weight in 2011 where he was noticeably slower with less lift but that reverted and the last 3 years in Miami was near those earlier ones in Cleveland). That said, that explosiveness is something that can be taken away in a playoff series, when everyone is playing harder and teams don't give up near as many fastbreaks and defensive breakdowns. He got around it in 09 with some otherworldly shooting which as lessthanjake pointed out is probably more likely variance, still credit to him for performing, but questionable if that run went for two more rounds if it was sustainable in the manner he was doing it.

In contrast, his 2013 self (and this only improves for him as he ages) showed way more control of the game, able to dominate at any speed instead of constantly going 100 mph. Better post game, better off the ball, better shooter. People say his playoffs wasn't that impressive, but they forget that his supporting cast at that point was almost comparable to some of his Cleveland years with Wade playing more like Larry Hughes than Dwyane Wade due to his knee. The team (and I say this as a huge Wade fan) was better with Wade off the floor in those playoffs, but he was still playing 30+ minutes a night, so do the math. I'd argue if Wade never bruised his knee and exacerbated it by trying to continue to play during that 27 game win streak, that team might have had one of the most dominant playoff runs ever. Although as basketball fans, we would have been robbed of that all time game 6 vs San Antonio.

EDIT: Also this is not Heat bias, I'm open to the idea that some of LeBron's post Miami Cleveland seasons were his best too. I've always just felt 09 Cleveland LeBron gets overrated on pure athleticism, which Boston proved handily in 2010 (and 08 even though people will argue LeBron had no chance that season, still got completely shut down and carried by his defense) can be taken away, and he didn't even have to face Boston in 09.

[Djoker]

If we insist on a 1-year peak in a vacuum, then 2009 is his peak. No doubt about it. He actually performed at a higher level that year than any other year. And honestly it's not even that close.

But if you ask me, which version of Lebron is the best player and I can have a retrospective view of his career, then I'd probably go 2012 or 2013. As others have said, that 2009 PS performance is not sustainable. It is only 14 games after all. Miami Lebron was a more well-rounded basketball player.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Lebron James
2 - Kobe Bryant
3 - Dwight Howard
4 - Dwyane Wade
5 - Chauncey Billups

So we have the best player ever which kind of has to be #1. Best stats ever and a team that's really REALLY bad if he's not playing is really really good when he plays. I always thought he was the best but I think I underrated how good he was just going off the stats and story. Eyetest and impact sorta says he's actually way better than MJ so I can't really be putting Kobe ahead when and i'm not trying to be mean he's kind of just a worse MJ. And yeah all the reaching about the his teammates from the last thread didn't really help you guys imo.

Kobe plays great too obviously. 30/5/5 on good TS without a Shaq or anything to win a ring is probably getting you first place in a lot of POY threads.

DPOY and everyone in this thread is voting him DPOY and he also 20 points on 60% ts and then he's better in the playoffs and beats Lebron to make the finals? Can't really pick against him.

Wade has great stats too.

Am I the only one who thinks it's weird no one's voting for anyone from the Nuggets? Like if passing is important and all then I feel like Chauncey going 20/6 and almost making the final should count for something? I get melo is sorta a empty numbers guy but someone on Denver deserves a vote to be honest.

Defensive Player of the Year

1 - Dwight Howard
2 - Lebron James
3 - Kevin Garnett

Offensive Player of the Year

1 - Lebron James
2 - Kobe Bryant
3 - Dwyane Wade