2024 Retro Player of the Year Project UPDATE [Discussion Thread]

[OhayoKD]

I don't really dispute bird being the better scorer and offensive player at this point but

And that higher efficiency is accomplished while

a)shooting 41.1% 3P on 3.1 attempts per game while Hakeem was scoring all of his points inside
and

I'm not sure how this is a positive for Bird here. His true-shooting being built on wide-open looks while Hakeem is scoring a bunch facing multiple defenders would be a positive point for Hakeem, not Bird. It's also worth considering the finals has hakeem having to go on mchale and parish and walton while bird has the benefit of hakeem being occupied by parish and mchale being occupied by sampson. In such a circumstance even equal scorers should be expected to have differing efficiency.

As for creation/playmaking - I appreciate the effort that is put into tracking this stuff, but my instinct is that not all creation is the same. When you're talking about a center for whom the nature of his creation is using his gravity to draw the defense inward and then passing the ball back out, and a wing who has to move around with the ball, dribble, and pass outside-in(or side-to-side) to create, it strikes me as comparing apples to oranges. It's like two different skillsets entirely.

Well two of the trackers have been looking at quality as well and Bird doesn't do too well there either. The core assumption behind all of these is that the essence of playmaking is removing variables that may otherwise hinder your team from scoring, and the most prominent variable there is defenders.

I'd also say what you're describing more accurate describes Mchale. Bird is barely handling the ball at all. Offensively he's basically a PF. He then plays small-forward defensively because he offers very little in the way of paint-protection.

If we are going to compare the apples to the oranges though - while I fully understand that there's more to creation and playmaking than assists, it strikes me as wrong to simply ignore the chasm of their a:t ratios. Bird recorded a >2:1 ratio in the RS and a >3:1 ratio in the PO, while Hakeem turned the ball over more than he assisted in both RS and PO:

Bird RS: 8.5:4.1, PO: 9.4:3.0
Hakeem RS: 2.0:2.9, PO: 2.0:2.2

I mean, the assists are also being looked at here in ceo, rff, and lebronny's tracking. But ultimately assists aren't really useful beyond their ability to reflect creation so, if Bird, regardless of his assists, isn't creating much more, I don't really see Hakeem having less turnovers, without his team's starting point guard, as a positive for him. Hakeem is facing more defensive attention, a more difficult offensive assignment and turning the ball over less.

and being in the same ballpark on the boards despite being three inches shorter and playing next to good rebounders in McHale and Parish?

Yeah, see I think what's happening is pretty much the opposite. Bird is getting rebounds because he has two teammates sealing off the Rockets best rebounders while Hakeem is dealing with the Celtic's best rebounders. Catching the ball is cool, but i'd say the most value comes from the sealing off other potential rebounders, not simply being there to catch it. I don't think Bird is in Hakeem's ballpark at all there. Hakeem is sealing-off mchale/parish/waltonn allowing sampsons and mcrays to get rebounds. Bird isn't sealing off hakeem or sampson for mchale or parish.

That he was the focal point of what is held by most as one of the greatest teams ever that, in their four wins in the Finals, had an average MOV of 13.5ppg over Hakeem's team?

I mean, I don't see why we'd exclude the losses. The Rockets play the Celtics far closer than any other team did and steal a game despite Hakeem's best teammate going out. Also you say he's the focal point but it's worth remebering the offense was worse in 86. What made them an all-time team was their defense and Bird is the least involved man defender, offers minimal rim-protection, and so far in tracking is still registering more negative plays than positive.

I fully understand the arguments in favor of Hakeem - that he's the superior defender, that what he accomplished is more impressive because he did it with less, etc - I just don't agree that they put him over Bird in 86. I don't think anyone's changing their minds at this point, though, and I am unsurprised at the result given this forum seems to be, relative to the general basketball-following population, super-duper high on guys like Hakeem and Duncan and Garnett and relatively lukewarm on guys like Bird and Shaq and even Magic.

Eh?

Magic gained 3 additional POY-wins (5 overall) and notched one of the only three-unanimous POYs from 1975-1999 with prime Hakeem, Jordan, and Bird as competition. The top 100 was low on Magic I guess (longevity), but I don't think the RPOY has been. Magic has been treated like the best player of the 80s and I think that's higher relative to general-basketball-followers who see Bird as the best.

[penbeast0]

I don't really dispute bird being the better scorer and offensive player at this point but

And that higher efficiency is accomplished while

a)shooting 41.1% 3P on 3.1 attempts per game while Hakeem was scoring all of his points inside
and

I'm not sure how this is a positive for Bird here. His true-shooting being built on wide-open looks while Hakeem is scoring a bunch facing multiple defenders would be a positive point for Hakeem, not Bird. It's also worth considering the finals has hakeem having to go on mchale and parish and walton while bird has the benefit of hakeem being occupied by parish and mchale being occupied by sampson. In such a circumstance even equal scorers should be expected to have differing efficiency.

As for creation/playmaking - I appreciate the effort that is put into tracking this stuff, but my instinct is that not all creation is the same. When you're talking about a center for whom the nature of his creation is using his gravity to draw the defense inward and then passing the ball back out, and a wing who has to move around with the ball, dribble, and pass outside-in(or side-to-side) to create, it strikes me as comparing apples to oranges. It's like two different skillsets entirely.

Well two of the trackers have been looking at quality as well and Bird doesn't do too well there either. The core assumption behind all of these is that the essence of playmaking is removing variables that may otherwise hinder your team from scoring, and the most prominent variable there is defenders.

I'd also say what you're describing more accurate describes Mchale. Bird is barely handling the ball at all. Offensively he's basically a PF. He then plays small-forward defensively because he offers very little in the way of paint-protection.

If we are going to compare the apples to the oranges though - while I fully understand that there's more to creation and playmaking than assists, it strikes me as wrong to simply ignore the chasm of their a:t ratios. Bird recorded a >2:1 ratio in the RS and a >3:1 ratio in the PO, while Hakeem turned the ball over more than he assisted in both RS and PO:

Bird RS: 8.5:4.1, PO: 9.4:3.0
Hakeem RS: 2.0:2.9, PO: 2.0:2.2

I mean, the assists are also being looked at here in ceo, rff, and lebronny's tracking. But ultimately assists aren't really useful beyond their ability to reflect creation so, if Bird, regardless of his assists, isn't creating much more, I don't really see Hakeem having less turnovers, without his team's starting point guard, as a positive for him. Hakeem is facing more defensive attention, a more difficult offensive assignment and turning the ball over less.

and being in the same ballpark on the boards despite being three inches shorter and playing next to good rebounders in McHale and Parish?

Yeah, see I think what's happening is pretty much the opposite. Bird is getting rebounds because he has two teammates sealing off the Rockets best rebounders while Hakeem is dealing with the Celtic's best rebounders. Catching the ball is cool, but i'd say the most value comes from the sealing off other potential rebounders, not simply being there to catch it. I don't think Bird is in Hakeem's ballpark at all there. Hakeem is sealing-off mchale/parish/waltonn allowing sampsons and mcrays to get rebounds. Bird isn't sealing off hakeem or sampson for mchale or parish.

That he was the focal point of what is held by most as one of the greatest teams ever that, in their four wins in the Finals, had an average MOV of 13.5ppg over Hakeem's team?

I mean, I don't see why we'd exclude the losses. The Rockets play the Celtics far closer than any other team did and steal a game despite Hakeem's best teammate going out. Also you say he's the focal point but it's worth remebering the offense was worse in 86. What made them an all-time team was their defense and Bird is the least involved man defender, offers minimal rim-protection, and so far in tracking is still registering more negative plays than positive.

I fully understand the arguments in favor of Hakeem - that he's the superior defender, that what he accomplished is more impressive because he did it with less, etc - I just don't agree that they put him over Bird in 86. I don't think anyone's changing their minds at this point, though, and I am unsurprised at the result given this forum seems to be, relative to the general basketball-following population, super-duper high on guys like Hakeem and Duncan and Garnett and relatively lukewarm on guys like Bird and Shaq and even Magic.

Eh?

Magic gained 3 additional POY-wins (5 overall) and notched one of the only three-unanimous POYs from 1975-1999 with prime Hakeem, Jordan, and Bird as competition. The top 100 was low on Magic I guess (longevity), but I don't think the RPOY has been. Magic has been treated like the best player of the 80s and I think that's higher relative to general-basketball-followers who see Bird as the best.

(a) Bird, with his rep and numbers, isn't getting wide open looks. The idea that outside shots, which stretch the defense allowing more slashing and easier shots for interior scorer, are more valuable than equivalent post scoring is the whole basis of the modern pace and space offensive revolution.

(b) Bird tended to play a lot of PF defensively while McHale (or earlier, Maxwell) guarded the 3 because McHale had quicker feet and to keep Bird from tiring out depending on the matchups. They still had Parish for rim protection when all 3 were in. That's not an argument for Bird mind you, if anything it's an argument that his defense was overrated by those early All-D team awards.

(c) Bird was a better passer than Hakeem. Assists may overstate the difference a bit which is one of the points of the tracking, but I don't think that's in doubt.

(d) Why do you think Hakeem is blocking out more and Bird less when Hakeem is his team's primary rebounder? I would assume that the Rockets' rebounding scheme is to have Thorpe or Horry blocking out so Hakeem can get the rebound most often. With Barkley there, maybe; Charles didn't exactly have great fundamentals of that type. In any case, I will look for that the next time I watch some Hakeem games.

I'm one of those guys who love defensive rim protectors and think pure volume scoring, particularly inefficient volume scoring, is overrated, but while I may have Hakeem higher than Bird in some of these years, I think some of your arguments should be questioned.

[OhayoKD]

I don't really dispute bird being the better scorer and offensive player at this point but

And that higher efficiency is accomplished while

a)shooting 41.1% 3P on 3.1 attempts per game while Hakeem was scoring all of his points inside
and

I'm not sure how this is a positive for Bird here. His true-shooting being built on wide-open looks while Hakeem is scoring a bunch facing multiple defenders would be a positive point for Hakeem, not Bird. It's also worth considering the finals has hakeem having to go on mchale and parish and walton while bird has the benefit of hakeem being occupied by parish and mchale being occupied by sampson. In such a circumstance even equal scorers should be expected to have differing efficiency.

As for creation/playmaking - I appreciate the effort that is put into tracking this stuff, but my instinct is that not all creation is the same. When you're talking about a center for whom the nature of his creation is using his gravity to draw the defense inward and then passing the ball back out, and a wing who has to move around with the ball, dribble, and pass outside-in(or side-to-side) to create, it strikes me as comparing apples to oranges. It's like two different skillsets entirely.

Well two of the trackers have been looking at quality as well and Bird doesn't do too well there either. The core assumption behind all of these is that the essence of playmaking is removing variables that may otherwise hinder your team from scoring, and the most prominent variable there is defenders.

I'd also say what you're describing more accurate describes Mchale. Bird is barely handling the ball at all. Offensively he's basically a PF. He then plays small-forward defensively because he offers very little in the way of paint-protection.

If we are going to compare the apples to the oranges though - while I fully understand that there's more to creation and playmaking than assists, it strikes me as wrong to simply ignore the chasm of their a:t ratios. Bird recorded a >2:1 ratio in the RS and a >3:1 ratio in the PO, while Hakeem turned the ball over more than he assisted in both RS and PO:

Bird RS: 8.5:4.1, PO: 9.4:3.0
Hakeem RS: 2.0:2.9, PO: 2.0:2.2

I mean, the assists are also being looked at here in ceo, rff, and lebronny's tracking. But ultimately assists aren't really useful beyond their ability to reflect creation so, if Bird, regardless of his assists, isn't creating much more, I don't really see Hakeem having less turnovers, without his team's starting point guard, as a positive for him. Hakeem is facing more defensive attention, a more difficult offensive assignment and turning the ball over less.

and being in the same ballpark on the boards despite being three inches shorter and playing next to good rebounders in McHale and Parish?

Yeah, see I think what's happening is pretty much the opposite. Bird is getting rebounds because he has two teammates sealing off the Rockets best rebounders while Hakeem is dealing with the Celtic's best rebounders. Catching the ball is cool, but i'd say the most value comes from the sealing off other potential rebounders, not simply being there to catch it. I don't think Bird is in Hakeem's ballpark at all there. Hakeem is sealing-off mchale/parish/walton allowing sampsons and mcrays to get rebounds. Bird isn't sealing off hakeem or sampson for mchale or parish.

That he was the focal point of what is held by most as one of the greatest teams ever that, in their four wins in the Finals, had an average MOV of 13.5ppg over Hakeem's team?

I mean, I don't see why we'd exclude the losses. The Rockets play the Celtics far closer than any other team did and steal a game despite Hakeem's best teammate going out. Also you say he's the focal point but it's worth remebering the offense was worse in 86. What made them an all-time team was their defense and Bird is the least involved man defender, offers minimal rim-protection, and so far in tracking is still registering more negative plays than positive.

I fully understand the arguments in favor of Hakeem - that he's the superior defender, that what he accomplished is more impressive because he did it with less, etc - I just don't agree that they put him over Bird in 86. I don't think anyone's changing their minds at this point, though, and I am unsurprised at the result given this forum seems to be, relative to the general basketball-following population, super-duper high on guys like Hakeem and Duncan and Garnett and relatively lukewarm on guys like Bird and Shaq and even Magic.

Eh?

Magic gained 3 additional POY-wins (5 overall) and notched one of the only three-unanimous POYs from 1975-1999 with prime Hakeem, Jordan, and Bird as competition. The top 100 was low on Magic I guess (longevity), but I don't think the RPOY has been. Magic has been treated like the best player of the 80s and I think that's higher relative to general-basketball-followers who see Bird as the best.

(a) Bird, with his rep and numbers, isn't getting wide open looks. The idea that outside shots, which stretch the defense allowing more slashing and easier shots for interior scorer, are more valuable than equivalent post scoring is the whole basis of the modern pace and space offensive revolution.

Tbh I was getting wires crossed because I was thinking about how he was defended off-ball from my off-ball creation tracking. I'll revise to he's getting single coverage or an open look depending on if he gets free of the defender of his defender or not. The issue with bringing modern usage into it is defenses didn't send extra defenders vs threes.

(b) Bird tended to play a lot of PF defensively while McHale (or earlier, Maxwell) guarded the 3 because McHale had quicker feet and to keep Bird from tiring out depending on the matchups. They still had Parish for rim protection when all 3 were in. That's not an argument for Bird mind you, if anything it's an argument that his defense was overrated by those early All-D team awards.

I'm just saying he played SF because I think of a PF as the secondary or primary paint-protector and them guarding opposing bigs. His role as like Lebron for the 2009 Cavs where he's a roamer/helper but he's alot less involved in and outside. From my tracking and my watching Mchale was Boston's primary paint-protector so I think of him as playing the 4 even though he also picked up 3s. on the perimiter.

(c) Bird was a better passer than Hakeem. Assists may overstate the difference a bit which is one of the points of the tracking, but I don't think that's in doubt.

That's fine, but passing is a means to the end of creation for me. I'm pretty confident Hakeem draws alot more defenders on the 86 rockets than bird does on the 86 celtics so he doesn't neccesarily need to be as good of a passer to create more. But the person to challenge there is Lebronny. They've posted some of their creation tracking for bigs with the creations highlighted so maybe it would be productive to see if you disagree with whatever they're counting as creations or not. Their tracking had the most influence on the vote I think.

I grew suspicious after they said ewing created a bunch they were counting a bunch of low quality creations but when i looked at it for edtos all the plays looked like what my assist tracking counts as decent, good, or great and they're mainly plays where an extra defender is taken out so I don't see too much disagreement with how they grade creation(it was about 2 edtos per creation). I did do edtos/adas for their 2006 Lebron creation tracking and my edto count was only a little lower than what they counted.

I'd guess Hakeem is missing more potential openings than bird is though. And that's a negative to consider.

(d) Why do you think Hakeem is blocking out more and Bird less when Hakeem is his team's primary rebounder? I would assume that the Rockets' rebounding scheme is to have Thorpe or Horry blocking out so Hakeem can get the rebound most often. With Barkley there, maybe; Charles didn't exactly have great fundamentals of that type. In any case, I will look for that the next time I watch some Hakeem games.

Because when I track paint-usage, one of the things I look for and factor in is whose sealing off potential rebounding threats or claiming rebounds against unboxed out defenders. I'm in the middle of a tracking for Duncan i want to finish asap and I want to do Lebron's 2007 defense tracking after, but I'm pretty sure I wrote down the instances when a player sealed a big for a rebound so I can count that up later if you want.

I'll also add in 97 I saw and wrote down Hakeem doing everything to keep Osterstag from interfering with Barkley's boards a bunch.

Falco also specifically tracked rebounding iirc

I'm one of those guys who love defensive rim protectors and think pure volume scoring, particularly inefficient volume scoring, is overrated, but while I may have Hakeem higher than Bird in some of these years, I think some of your arguments should be questioned.

Sure.

[penbeast0]

If you've actually done block out counts, then I'll certainly buy that part of the argument. I remember doing it for Nene who had a rep for it; haven't done it since (which, as you know, has been awhile!)

[OldSchoolNoBull]

I don't really dispute bird being the better scorer and offensive player at this point but

And that higher efficiency is accomplished while

a)shooting 41.1% 3P on 3.1 attempts per game while Hakeem was scoring all of his points inside
and

I'm not sure how this is a positive for Bird here. His true-shooting being built on wide-open looks while Hakeem is scoring a bunch facing multiple defenders would be a positive point for Hakeem, not Bird. It's also worth considering the finals has hakeem having to go on mchale and parish and walton while bird has the benefit of hakeem being occupied by parish and mchale being occupied by sampson. In such a circumstance even equal scorers should be expected to have differing efficiency.

See penbeast's answer to this.

As for creation/playmaking - I appreciate the effort that is put into tracking this stuff, but my instinct is that not all creation is the same. When you're talking about a center for whom the nature of his creation is using his gravity to draw the defense inward and then passing the ball back out, and a wing who has to move around with the ball, dribble, and pass outside-in(or side-to-side) to create, it strikes me as comparing apples to oranges. It's like two different skillsets entirely.

Well two of the trackers have been looking at quality as well and Bird doesn't do too well there either. The core assumption behind all of these is that the essence of playmaking is removing variables that may otherwise hinder your team from scoring, and the most prominent variable there is defenders.

I'd also say what you're describing more accurate describes Mchale. Bird is barely handling the ball at all. Offensively he's basically a PF. He then plays small-forward defensively because he offers very little in the way of paint-protection.

If we are going to compare the apples to the oranges though - while I fully understand that there's more to creation and playmaking than assists, it strikes me as wrong to simply ignore the chasm of their a:t ratios. Bird recorded a >2:1 ratio in the RS and a >3:1 ratio in the PO, while Hakeem turned the ball over more than he assisted in both RS and PO:

Bird RS: 8.5:4.1, PO: 9.4:3.0
Hakeem RS: 2.0:2.9, PO: 2.0:2.2

I mean, the assists are also being looked at here in ceo, rff, and lebronny's tracking. But ultimately assists aren't really useful beyond their ability to reflect creation so, if Bird, regardless of his assists, isn't creating much more, I don't really see Hakeem having less turnovers, without his team's starting point guard, as a positive for him. Hakeem is facing more defensive attention, a more difficult offensive assignment and turning the ball over less.

Eh...I still can't get there. You are essentially telling me to disregard the assists, and I just can't get there. And it also feels like with this tracking you guys are doing, you are creating a new definition of "creation" that I haven't seen used anywhere else.

I haven't really watched these games in full though. Maybe I'd change my mind. I'm skeptical though.

That he was the focal point of what is held by most as one of the greatest teams ever that, in their four wins in the Finals, had an average MOV of 13.5ppg over Hakeem's team?

I mean, I don't see why we'd exclude the losses. The Rockets play the Celtics far closer than any other team did and steal a game despite Hakeem's best teammate going out. Also you say he's the focal point but it's worth remebering the offense was worse in 86. What made them an all-time team was their defense and Bird is the least involved man defender, offers minimal rim-protection, and so far in tracking is still registering more negative plays than positive.

By focal point, I just mean the player on which the opposing defense focuses the most. Which I believe was Bird, though I suppose it's possible they focused on McHale equally as much(not more).

I fully understand the arguments in favor of Hakeem - that he's the superior defender, that what he accomplished is more impressive because he did it with less, etc - I just don't agree that they put him over Bird in 86. I don't think anyone's changing their minds at this point, though, and I am unsurprised at the result given this forum seems to be, relative to the general basketball-following population, super-duper high on guys like Hakeem and Duncan and Garnett and relatively lukewarm on guys like Bird and Shaq and even Magic.

Eh?

Magic gained 3 additional POY-wins (5 overall) and notched one of the only three-unanimous POYs from 1975-1999 with prime Hakeem, Jordan, and Bird as competition. The top 100 was low on Magic I guess (longevity), but I don't think the RPOY has been. Magic has been treated like the best player of the 80s and I think that's higher relative to general-basketball-followers who see Bird as the best.

That's fair. I was really just thinking of the Top 100 project when Garnett defeated Magic in a runoff and thus ended up one spot above him, a result I really really really didn't agree with.

[OhayoKD]

Magic gained 3 additional POY-wins (5 overall) and notched one of the only three-unanimous POYs from 1975-1999 with prime Hakeem, Jordan, and Bird as competition. The top 100 was low on Magic I guess (longevity), but I don't think the RPOY has been. Magic has been treated like the best player of the 80s and I think that's higher relative to general-basketball-followers who see Bird as the best.

That's fair. I was really just thinking of the Top 100 project when Garnett defeated Magic in a runoff and thus ended up one spot above him, a result I really really really didn't agree with.

Well, KG's voter-share has suffered significantly so far.

Would be interesting to see how you'd define a creation. There is a tracking discord if you ever want to partake.

[OhayoKD]

If you've actually done block out counts, then I'll certainly buy that part of the argument. I remember doing it for Nene who had a rep for it; haven't done it since (which, as you know, has been awhile!)

So I went back through this tracking and counted all the seal-outs mentioned for Bird/Hakeem.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2415133
Hakeem is noted sealing off a defender to help a teammate rebound 4 times, 3 defensive, 1 offensive. Bird is noted doing it once, 1 defensive.

Will caveat with

1. sealing out is probably only brought up if it's considered relevant to the judgment of whether a rim-protector was the primary, which means Bird might be sealing off smalls but not noted because there's a bigger fish getting dealt with.
2. wasn't paying too much attention to who was sealing out for players on the offensive side

I could specifically track for seal-outs but i have to do the 2nd duncan game and I want to do 2007 Lebron first.

[TheGOATRises007]

I'd be interested in participating going forward with the 2006-2007 season if I can be added.

[AEnigma]

I'd be interested in participating going forward with the 2006-2007 season if I can be added.

Rules for late admittance are in the opening post. Earliest I could add you as a voter is for the 2012 2011 (forgot you posted in 1991) thread, assuming you start contributing to discussion in every active thread from this point on.

Alternatively, if there is sufficient call to lessen the standards for late admittance, I will, but 2007 would be too early regardless.

[One_and_Done]

Definitely not in favour of loosening entry requirements, which were too loose to begin with.

[lessthanjake]

I feel like there’s a little bit of a disconnect between a participation-in-five-threads standard to join during the project and the can-join-even-without-almost-any-posts-on-Real-GM standard for joining at the beginning of the project. But maybe there’s a justification for making it difficult to join in the middle in order to try to keep the voter base consistent throughout?

[Special_Puppy]

Hakeem winning over Bird in 1986 and over Jordan in 1993 really stand out. Also consistent with him being 6th overall in the top 100 project 1.5 years ago. Voters are really high on him

[penbeast0]

I feel like there’s a little bit of a disconnect between a participation-in-five-threads standard to join during the project and the can-join-even-without-almost-any-posts-on-Real-GM standard for joining at the beginning of the project. But maybe there’s a justification for making it difficult to join in the middle in order to try to keep the voter base consistent throughout?

Hard to require prior threads on thread #1.

[lessthanjake]

I feel like there’s a little bit of a disconnect between a participation-in-five-threads standard to join during the project and the can-join-even-without-almost-any-posts-on-Real-GM standard for joining at the beginning of the project. But maybe there’s a justification for making it difficult to join in the middle in order to try to keep the voter base consistent throughout?

Hard to require prior threads on thread #1.

Yeah, I mean narrowly speaking that’s not possible, but you could similarly require participation in several prior threads on RealGM more generally—which was actually not required at all to be a voter initially. Someone could become a voter initially without having shown any commitment to even be a remotely consistent poster on RealGM in general (let alone in the specific project). So I think there is definitely a disconnect there. But I also think it’s not a big deal either way, both because it’s not clear to me whether a more permissive or less permissive stance is better in general and because, to the extent these decisions affect vote outcomes, the actual outcomes of the votes don’t really matter and the project is IMO primarily just meant to spur discussion in an organized way.

[Jaivl]

Hakeem winning over Bird in 1986 and over Jordan in 1993 really stand out. Also consistent with him being 6th overall in the top 100 project 1.5 years ago. Voters are really high on him

Been reading through the project lately. 1993 I totally get, but 1986 Hakeem feels pretty inconsistent with some later votes by the same people.

[trelos6]

Sad the project will end before I could drop this bomb.

2016-17

OPOY

1.Steph Curry. 27.4 pp75, +7.1 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +6.8. Top 6 playmaker. Playoffs; 28.5, +10.6%. But all of that means nothing. Teams were leaving Kevin Durant wide open because they were worried about Stephen Curry. That is the definition of gravity.

2.Lebron James. 26.2 pp75 on +6.6 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +4.8. Top 10 playmaker. Regular season was fine. Probably behind Westbrook, Kawhi, Harden. He’s here for the playoffs. Playoffs; 29.6, +9.6%. The Cavs were a +9 rOrtg team in the playoffs. This was a spectacular offense, driven by the king himself.

3.Isaiah Thomas. 31.8 pp75 on +7.2 rTS%. Led a +2.4 team rOrtg. Top 3 playmaker in the league. Playoffs: 25.65, +1%. Got to the line at a decent clip, hit them at 91%. Hit his 3’s at 38%. Was the king of the fourth quarter, coming up huge in game after game. I’m sorry Harden, if anyone wants to put you 1st in OPOY, I have no complaints. But I need to give the little guy his flowers for this magnificent season.

[OhayoKD]

Sad the project will end before I could drop this bomb.

2016-17

OPOY

1.Steph Curry. 27.4 pp75, +7.1 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +6.8. Top 6 playmaker. Playoffs; 28.5, +10.6%. But all of that means nothing. Teams were leaving Kevin Durant wide open because they were worried about Stephen Curry. That is the definition of gravity.

Barely getting doubled is the definition of gravity?

2.Lebron James. 26.2 pp75 on +6.6 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +4.8. Top 10 playmaker. Regular season was fine. Probably behind Westbrook, Kawhi, Harden. He’s here for the playoffs. Playoffs; 29.6, +9.6%. The Cavs were a +9 rOrtg team in the playoffs. This was a spectacular offense, driven by the king himself.

Cleveland's RS offensive rating with Lebron:
116
Cleveland's RS offensive rating without Lebron:
97.3

[70sFan]

Everything is a Jordan thread when OhayoKD is active.

Jordan defenders incessantly complain about the post-counts of voters who voted lower on Jordan for half the project: *Crickets

Ohayo criticizes the actual reasoning of a vote: "Allow me to introduce myself".

I must say, you are quite good at finding relationships that doesn't exist.

[OhayoKD]

Everything is a Jordan thread when OhayoKD is active.

Jordan defenders incessantly complain about the post-counts of voters who voted lower on Jordan for half the project: *Crickets

Ohayo criticizes the actual reasoning of a vote: "Allow me to introduce myself".

I must say, you are quite good at finding relationships that doesn't exist.

You're good at deflecting.

[70sFan]

Jordan defenders incessantly complain about the post-counts of voters who voted lower on Jordan for half the project: *Crickets

Ohayo criticizes the actual reasoning of a vote: "Allow me to introduce myself".

I must say, you are quite good at finding relationships that doesn't exist.

You're good at deflecting.

How would you call you failing to admit that you turn all debates into meta-MJ discussion?