Wembanyama, I'm concerned (Part 2)

[UglyBugBall]

There's no chance a player can be the GOAT as the second option.

Bill Russell would like a word.

He's somewhere in the top 12, but he's not in the GOAT discussion. Maybe a handful of people in the world have him there.

[tsherkin]

There's no chance a player can be the GOAT as the second option.

Bill Russell would like a word.

He's somewhere in the top 12, but he's not in the GOAT discussion. Maybe a handful of people in the world have him there.

You can't expect to be taken seriously if you don't agree that Russell isn't in the GOAT discussion. Unless it's from pure ignorance of earlier eras, then it isn't a justifiable position to hold at all.

[Bad Bart]

He has shot eight free throws over his last five games, and zero in three of those games. That seems like a concerning trend going forward.

[tsherkin]

He has shot eight free throws over his last five games, and zero in three of those games. That seems like a concerning trend going forward.

That's what happens when you take 7+ 3PA/g and aren't a slasher who grifts for fouls. *shrug* It's expected.

He's also only shooting 48% inside the arc over that same period, which is about 10% worse than his seasonal average. It hasn't been a good stretch for him offensively.

[dhsilv2]

You're right If he does those things. Personally I'm skeptical he will. He seems dedicated to being an outside shooter. He's not bad at it, but he's not nearly good enough doing it to make this an effective play style as a number one title option. Imo anyway.

So make his the second option? Can still be the GOAT and not the first option. PPG aren't that important.

There's no chance a player can be the GOAT as the second option.

This is the biggest load of nonsense I've seen posted. Yes, they absolutely can. And Wemby is the perfect example of the type of player who can do just that.

[tsherkin]

So make his the second option? Can still be the GOAT and not the first option. PPG aren't that important.

There's no chance a player can be the GOAT as the second option.

This is the biggest load of nonsense I've seen posted. Yes, they absolutely can. And Wemby is the perfect example of the type of player who can do just that.

Adding to this...

Wemby is already a mid-20s scorer hanging around +2% rTS who offers double-digit rebounding in 30 mpg. It's not like he's a BAD scorer. And he IS the wildest shot blocker we've seen in quite a long time, which is a fairly big deal in this league environment. If he puts the books on 4 bpg (where he's at right now), it'll be the first time this century that it has happened. The last time we saw 4+ bpg was Mutombo in 96. And since 1990, only Olajuwon (3x), Mutombo (2x), Ewing (1x), and D-Rob (1x) have done it. Even if you drop that to 3.7, there are still only 19 player-seasons of 3.7+ BPG since 1990.

It's wild stuff, and as he continues to figure out how to leverage his defense and plays with better teammates, he's going to be a monster. He's still only 21, in his second season.

So yeah, this idea that he can't be the GOAT if he isn't a first-option is weird, and can only come from either raw ignorance of the 60s, or a total denial of any but the present era of basketball, which isn't an intelligible position at all. Bill Russell was a 5-time MVP who 11 titles in 13 seasons while authoring the greatest defensive dynasty in league history, routinely spanking Wilt Chamberlain along the way. Dude has a highly-legitimate GOAT case.

So it is with Wemby, at least in terms of his potential.

[dhsilv2]

There's no chance a player can be the GOAT as the second option.

This is the biggest load of nonsense I've seen posted. Yes, they absolutely can. And Wemby is the perfect example of the type of player who can do just that.

Adding to this...

Wemby is already a mid-20s scorer hanging around +2% rTS who offers double-digit rebounding in 30 mpg. It's not like he's a BAD scorer. And he IS the wildest shot blocker we've seen in quite a long time, which is a fairly big deal in this league environment. If he puts the books on 4 bpg (where he's at right now), it'll be the first time this century that it has happened. The last time we saw 4+ bpg was Mutombo in 96. And since 1990, only Olajuwon (3x), Mutombo (2x), Ewing (1x), and D-Rob (1x) have done it. Even if you drop that to 3.7, there are still only 19 player-seasons of 3.7+ BPG since 1990.

It's wild stuff, and as he continues to figure out how to leverage his defense and plays with better teammates, he's going to be a monster. He's still only 21, in his second season.

So yeah, this idea that he can't be the GOAT if he isn't a first-option is weird, and can only come from either raw ignorance of the 60s, or a total denial of any but the present era of basketball, which isn't an intelligible position at all. Bill Russell was a 5-time MVP who 11 titles in 13 seasons while authoring the greatest defensive dynasty in league history, routinely spanking Wilt Chamberlain along the way. Dude has a highly-legitimate GOAT case.

So it is with Wemby, at least in terms of his potential.

Just to Piggy back, but we've seen other guys who's natural role wasn't to be first option who are at least close enough to the discussion to talk about. Those being KG and Robinson. Yes, but would fill those first options on really good teams. But neither were naturals for it. And both were more suited to be exceptional second options who could focus more on their defense. And that's before we even get to that Wilt who many consider in this discussion, didn't win until he was no longer a first option himself.

[tsherkin]

Just to Piggy back, but we've seen other guys who's natural role wasn't to be first option who are at least close enough to the discussion to talk about. Those being KG and Robinson. Yes, but would fill those first options on really good teams. But neither were naturals for it. And both were more suited to be exceptional second options who could focus more on their defense. And that's before we even get to that Wilt who many consider in this discussion, didn't win until he was no longer a first option himself.

I don't think either of those guys really enters the GOAT discussion. As far as Wilt, he did win his first title as the leading scorer on his team even if he wasn't taking the most shots. And he was also the focal playmaker. So I'm not sure he's a good example. He certainly shot less than he had done earlier in his career, but he was very clearly the guy who was touching the ball on basically every possession and the hub around which the SIxers' offense orbited. He was pretty much the definition of "first option" unless you reduce it to "leading shot taker on the team," which is a little limp of a definition in my head.

[dhsilv2]

Just to Piggy back, but we've seen other guys who's natural role wasn't to be first option who are at least close enough to the discussion to talk about. Those being KG and Robinson. Yes, but would fill those first options on really good teams. But neither were naturals for it. And both were more suited to be exceptional second options who could focus more on their defense. And that's before we even get to that Wilt who many consider in this discussion, didn't win until he was no longer a first option himself.

I don't think either of those guys really enters the GOAT discussion. As far as Wilt, he did win his first title as the leading scorer on his team even if he wasn't taking the most shots. And he was also the focal playmaker. So I'm not sure he's a good example. He certainly shot less than he had done earlier in his career, but he was very clearly the guy who was touching the ball on basically every possession and the hub around which the SIxers' offense orbited. He was pretty much the definition of "first option" unless you reduce it to "leading shot taker on the team," which is a little limp of a definition in my head.

No, neither are there, but they're close enough that we can use them to prove the possability.

Wilt was tied for 2nd in PPG in the playoffs in 67 and was 4th in the playoffs in field goal attempts. A part of being a secondary player is play making. Which doesn't on paper look like Wemby, but in the modern era of "off ball" gravity. His shooting pulls bigs out and his rim running can collapse a defense away from the ball. We can't call a Pippen a great 2nd option because he was a great play maker for his teams? That seems silly.

I'd argue Wilt was more a pass hub and the team's first option was for him to pass out. Similar in some ways to Draymond but obviously more like a Pippen where scoring was always on the table. But Wilt shooting was their secondary objective from those sets.

[tsherkin]

No, neither are there, but they're close enough that we can use them to prove the possability.

Not sure I really see that. Maybe if KG had played in the 60s, but I'm not seeing it as an effective defense here.

Wilt was tied for 2nd in PPG in the playoffs in 67 and was 4th in the playoffs in field goal attempts. A part of being a secondary player is play making.

Again, not sure I really think of that as an effective argument. Leading scorer, primary playmaker, very much the engine who drove the offense. Worthy, Kareem and Byron Scott all took more raw FGA/g than Magic in 85, but it was also ABUNDANTLY clear that he was their focal offensive player. Second-leading scorer, primary playmaker, etc.

Raw shooting volume means only so much.

Which doesn't on paper look like Wemby, but in the modern era of "off ball" gravity. His shooting pulls bigs out and his rim running can collapse a defense away from the ball. We can't call a Pippen a great 2nd option because he was a great play maker for his teams? That seems silly.

Pippen was an acceptable second option, but his contributions were more allowing Jordan to get off-ball and in his defense. He wasn't actually a stunning scoring weapon or overall offensive player. And Jordan was explicitly the hub of their offense.

[dhsilv2]

No, neither are there, but they're close enough that we can use them to prove the possability.

Not sure I really see that. Maybe if KG had played in the 60s, but I'm not seeing it as an effective defense here.

Wilt was tied for 2nd in PPG in the playoffs in 67 and was 4th in the playoffs in field goal attempts. A part of being a secondary player is play making.

Again, not sure I really think of that as an effective argument. Leading scorer, primary playmaker, very much the engine who drove the offense. Worthy, Kareem and Byron Scott all took more raw FGA/g than Magic in 85, but it was also ABUNDANTLY clear that he was their focal offensive player. Second-leading scorer, primary playmaker, etc.

Raw shooting volume means only so much.

Which doesn't on paper look like Wemby, but in the modern era of "off ball" gravity. His shooting pulls bigs out and his rim running can collapse a defense away from the ball. We can't call a Pippen a great 2nd option because he was a great play maker for his teams? That seems silly.

Pippen was an acceptable second option, but his contributions were more allowing Jordan to get off-ball and in his defense. He wasn't actually a stunning scoring weapon or overall offensive player. And Jordan was explicitly the hub of their offense.

If a player can be a top 10 or even 20 guy. Then that profile can absolutely be buffed up into a case for GOAT. That's the point of KG and Robinson.

I actually was going to reference Magic as another not first option to be fair. Especially given the context of the poster who'd defining first option. Just because you're not the first option doesn't mean you're not the best player or even best offensive player. It really just means you're not the first scoring option. Again especially in the context of who's coming up with this.

[tsherkin]

If a player can be a top 10 or even 20 guy. Then that profile can absolutely be buffed up into a case for GOAT. That's the point of KG and Robinson.

I don't really see that, no. There's nothing necessary about that capacity at all in my mind.

I actually was going to reference Magic as another not first option to be fair. Especially given the context of the poster who'd defining first option. Just because you're not the first option doesn't mean you're not the best player or even best offensive player. It really just means you're not the first scoring option. Again especially in the context of who's coming up with this.

I am inclined to disagree, but I suppose it does come down to the semantics of "first option." I think "guy who takes the most shots" is a very inadequate, rudimentary definition. I tend to think of it more as "focal offensive player." First option doesn't have to do with shot volume so much as the guy the offense operates from, the decision-maker who is applying the most pressure. Especially when the guy is substituting shooting volume with efficiency to be the second-highest scorer on the team to begin with, when you start to factor in their control over the offense via playmaking...


In any case, circling back to Wemby. He's 21 and in his second season. He's improving visibly along a progression not dissimilar to what we saw from Lebron and KD and many others. His defense is clearly going to be his focus, and he already exerts palpable force on O in games, whether or not he's shooting well. That's an early sign. As he improves and adapts and evolves, we'll have to see where he goes with his strategy and how that affects his impact.

But writing him out of the GOAT conversation now is, of course, wildly foolish nonsense given what he's showing us. He's not guarantee for such, but it's far, far too early to say "he can't be the GOAT because his scoring doesn't look first option caliber."

His scoring is already knocking on the door of Tatum as a mid-20s, +2% rTS guy.... and actually as a 35.8 PTS100 guy, he's scoring at a rate nearly identical to Tatum on similar efficiency. And he has other tools and potential which Tatum does not. So it's pretty clear that he's got the stuff to function as a focal scorer on at least a certain kind of title-contending team.

[dhsilv2]

If a player can be a top 10 or even 20 guy. Then that profile can absolutely be buffed up into a case for GOAT. That's the point of KG and Robinson.

I don't really see that, no. There's nothing necessary about that capacity at all in my mind.

So Wemby and Russell can't be the GOAT?

[tsherkin]

So Wemby and Russell can't be the GOAT?

THat doesn't logically follow anything I said.

[MalVicious]

This thread is comical, as if Wemby isn't already an all star on his size and shooting ability alone, and as if he doesn't have 9 minimum offseasons before he is 30 years old to expand or add to his game lmao. Let's get real here. Who looks at Wemby and thinks "well, this is his ceiling, what you see is what you get" he is literally averaging better stats all across the board from last year and his second best player is a 40 year old Chris Paul.

[dhsilv2]

So Wemby and Russell can't be the GOAT?

THat doesn't logically follow anything I said.

If a KG or Robinson, only better without changing who they are. AKA - even better defenders. Better jumpers. But not really built to be the focal point of an offense (as the case was with them), according to you isn't someone who could be a GOAT.

[tsherkin]

If a KG or Robinson, only better without changing who they are. AKA - even better defenders. Better jumpers. But not really built to be the focal point of an offense (as the case was with them), according to you isn't someone who could be a GOAT.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. "If these guys were better, they might rank higher." Sure? Great. Not an address of anything I said, though. Perhaps I misunderstood your original point. I thought you meant "because they have a top 10 argument, they could have become the GOAT," with which I fervently disagree.

[Jamaaliver]

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[UglyBugBall]

Bill Russell would like a word.

He's somewhere in the top 12, but he's not in the GOAT discussion. Maybe a handful of people in the world have him there.

You can't expect to be taken seriously if you don't agree that Russell isn't in the GOAT discussion. Unless it's from pure ignorance of earlier eras, then it isn't a justifiable position to hold at all.

He is not. What poll, survey or assessment have you seen that has him as the #1? And what percent is that of all the polls/surveys and assessments that have been made?

Even if you just assess his game objectively, I come back to the same analogy I always do. We would never consider an Olympic 100 runner to be the GOAT of the sport, when in many cases their record breaking times wouldn't even qualify them for the Olympics today.

If your definition of 'GOAT' is in the wider sense of the word - top 10 or something, then sure. I'm speaking in the literal meaning of the word - #1. He does not have a strong case for being the best ever, and that's why you rarely ever see that case made.

[UglyBugBall]

So make his the second option? Can still be the GOAT and not the first option. PPG aren't that important.

There's no chance a player can be the GOAT as the second option.

This is the biggest load of nonsense I've seen posted. Yes, they absolutely can. And Wemby is the perfect example of the type of player who can do just that.

What example do you have? Robins don't become GOATS by definition, because they were not even the dominant offensive force of their own team. Defense does not have the same value as offense when people debate the topic, which is why defensive specialists usually rank below the offensive ones.