Bulls @ Warriors 9:00pm CT Jan. 23 2025

[Indomitable]

Pat can't jump

He's very unathletic for a purported athletic freak.

He got fat and cannot compensate for it. He unable to use his extra 15 pounds and has lost his ability to explode.

The foot injury might still be affecting him.

[WesPeace]

Been a while since the Bulls lost because of random fringe NBA players killing us from 3 because they're unguaded the entire game.
Vintage Bulls loss.

This game was like watching late night drunk league D lol.. Everybody wide open on three.. ocean between players..

Btw. Get PWill into shape, he looks fat and unmobile..
Get him into rookie body, leaner, faster..

[League Circles]

Couldn't stay up late for the game, but based on how we've been playing lately, I think we almost have to win every game until the trade deadline to justify not making tank moves at the deadline. Only problem is, the moves that would make us worse are actually not all that obvious lol. I don't want to just dump Zach and most other potential subtractions are not obviously going to make us worse immediately.

Only guys I'd just dump now (expirings plus hopefully draft pick(s)) and expect to get worse for the rest of the year are:

No one

Yep, every guy on our team I'd rather keep than purely dump OR I'm not so sure that them being dumped would even make us worse.

I would dump these guys for pure expirings now, but not because I think it will automatically make us worse:

Vuc
Patrick
Terry
Carter

[drosestruts]

Do our rotations suck or do our players suck - very chicken or the egg.

I'm not sure the 5-man combination of Ball-LaVine-Giddey-Craig-Vucevic has ever been on the floor together - but in my mind, it's currently potentially our best 5-man unit.

The hard truth is that Pat and Coby have been bad this year - yet we routinely start them when healthy and just shoot ourselves in the foot.

Then our bench unit comes in which contains never ending arguments about minute distribution to guys like Terry, Phillips, THT, and Matas when the truth is - right now at least, they're all just bad. Ayo who I like, may also fit into this category.

Players that appear to make those around them better - Lonzo Ball

Players I can count on to do their job - LaVine, Vucevic, Smith, Craig

And then we pretty much have everyone else. Which isn't ideal.

[Ice Man]

The hard truth is that Pat and Coby have been bad this year - yet we routinely start them when healthy and just shoot ourselves in the foot.

They are why I have drifted away from the Bulls. I have spent half a decade watching the Bulls slowly drift into the iceberg.

1) Draft 2 guys using highish lottery picks.

2) Immediately start them, although they aren't good NBA starters as rookies, and in fact it's unclear if they will ever be good NBA starters. They are just guys who are losing us games in the first year that we start them, and might lose us games if we start then in the future. As they are doing this year.

3) Keep on playing them because, you know, they were highish lottery picks.

That's bad management 101. I know that fans are all excited to see rookies, thus the calls for Matas this year, but you neither establish a winning tradition nor do players any favors by giving them entitlement minutes.

First, make them earn their minutes in practice. If they're not a rotation-level player in practice, then forget them, they don't deserve NBA minutes. They can rot until they practice better or get released by the team.

Second, if they do earn their minutes in practice, do give them NBA minutes. Now they are worth the time and effort. But don't start them until they are clearly better than the alternatives. Forget that nonsense about how young players need "development" time. What they need to do to earn more minutes and eventually become a starter is to kick butt and take no prisoners when on the court. Be so good that the coach can't bench them.

There's more to talent evaluation than 1) we drafted this guy high, so 2) we're going to play him a lot and 3) after a while we will be rewarded for that investment. I wish it were so simple that every Chicago Bulls lottery pick will become a high-quality player, all we need to so is invest several thousand NBA minutes in him, but that is not how things work.

[ChettheJet]

On TV they tried to act like the Bulls shouldn't be trading anybody but even Stacey King has to see the lack of attention, or urgency or willingness to change the way they play by the some of the players. Williams had 7 points in the first quarter, the selfishness of others is why he didn't get the ball in order to attempt enough shots to score again. And proof of that is Vuc scored early and ended with 9 points after Stacey spent the first half saying the GSW had no one to guard him in the post. Ayo shot lghts ot wouldn't you think they would have looked at him for more than 10 shots.

Stacey and Adam both have this very annoying habit of when Williams, Zach, Giddey and others miss a wide open 3, saying I wish they would have taken that to the basket. Other teams rotate to cover a drive to the basket so it' snot automatic. Then you hear Billy after the game say they needed to shoot more 3's n the 2nd half. Well if guys were driving to the basket as the announcers want they'd be shooting even fewer 3's.


The Bulls as constructed with Demar, Zach, Lonzo and Vuc were designed to be a playoff team with veterans like Caruso coming off the bench. Lonzo goes down and so does the chance at making the playoffs. But starting that year NO deadline moves for 3 years to try and reset what was obviously a team NOT getting into the playoffs. Last summer you saw two big moves with DeRozan and Caruso, small move with Smith but those were not enough.

Look at who other teams with injuries bring off their bench against the Bulls, some with close to no NBA experience. They instantly score the basketball, bring energy and scramble on defense. Buzelis or Phillips try at least but aren't scaring the other team Terry is still not effective in any area so they've got THT, Carter and Craig when healthy.

Bring in the new VP right now and start cleaning house.

[drosestruts]

The hard truth is that Pat and Coby have been bad this year - yet we routinely start them when healthy and just shoot ourselves in the foot.

They are why I have drifted away from the Bulls. I have spent half a decade watching the Bulls slowly drift into the iceberg.

1) Draft 2 guys using highish lottery picks.

2) Immediately start them, although they aren't good NBA starters as rookies, and in fact it's unclear if they will ever be good NBA starters. They are just guys who are losing us games in the first year that we start them, and might lose us games if we start then in the future. As they are doing this year.

3) Keep on playing them because, you know, they were highish lottery picks.

That's bad management 101. I know that fans are all excited to see rookies, thus the calls for Matas this year, but you neither establish a winning tradition nor do players any favors by giving them entitlement minutes.

First, make them earn their minutes in practice. If they're not a rotation-level player in practice, then forget them, they don't deserve NBA minutes. They can rot until they practice better or get released by the team.

Second, if they do earn their minutes in practice, do give them NBA minutes. Now they are worth the time and effort. But don't start them until they are clearly better than the alternatives. Forget that nonsense about how young players need "development" time. What they need to do to earn more minutes and eventually become a starter is to kick butt and take no prisoners when on the court. Be so good that the coach can't bench them.

There's more to talent evaluation than 1) we drafted this guy high, so 2) we're going to play him a lot and 3) after a while we will be rewarded for that investment. I wish it were so simple that every Chicago Bulls lottery pick will become a high-quality player, all we need to so is invest several thousand NBA minutes in him, but that is not how things work.

I agree strongly with a lot of this.

I think too many people view development like it's a video games and more time on the court equals more XP which will result in the player then magically becoming good.

You can give Tony Snell all the minutes in the world - he'll never be Kawhi Leonard.

You want your young players to get some run - put them in g-league games.

Players stepping foot onto an NBA court, should be NBA talents.

I think it was actually Lonzo Ball over the summer on a podcast that talked about how the best 450 best basketball players in the world aren't in the NBA and there's several guys out of the league better than guys currently in the league. And people viewed it as a controversial statement but I think it's 100% true.

There's a lot of players in the NBA who are in the NBA out of some belief of what they could become and not because of what they can do for you right now.

It's tricky the find that balance.

I admire teams like Houston that are making their young players earn their minutes.

Patrick Williams has never earned to have more minutes than Derrick Jones Jr, Javonte Green, or Torrey Craig

It's not helping us. And it's not helping Williams. No ones benefitting from his entitlement minutes.

[Indomitable]

The hard truth is that Pat and Coby have been bad this year - yet we routinely start them when healthy and just shoot ourselves in the foot.

They are why I have drifted away from the Bulls. I have spent half a decade watching the Bulls slowly drift into the iceberg.

1) Draft 2 guys using highish lottery picks.

2) Immediately start them, although they aren't good NBA starters as rookies, and in fact it's unclear if they will ever be good NBA starters. They are just guys who are losing us games in the first year that we start them, and might lose us games if we start then in the future. As they are doing this year.

3) Keep on playing them because, you know, they were highish lottery picks.

That's bad management 101. I know that fans are all excited to see rookies, thus the calls for Matas this year, but you neither establish a winning tradition nor do players any favors by giving them entitlement minutes.

First, make them earn their minutes in practice. If they're not a rotation-level player in practice, then forget them, they don't deserve NBA minutes. They can rot until they practice better or get released by the team.

Second, if they do earn their minutes in practice, do give them NBA minutes. Now they are worth the time and effort. But don't start them until they are clearly better than the alternatives. Forget that nonsense about how young players need "development" time. What they need to do to earn more minutes and eventually become a starter is to kick butt and take no prisoners when on the court. Be so good that the coach can't bench them.

There's more to talent evaluation than 1) we drafted this guy high, so 2) we're going to play him a lot and 3) after a while we will be rewarded for that investment. I wish it were so simple that every Chicago Bulls lottery pick will become a high-quality player, all we need to so is invest several thousand NBA minutes in him, but that is not how things work.

I agree strongly with a lot of this.

I think too many people view development like it's a video games and more time on the court equals more XP which will result in the player then magically becoming good.

You can give Tony Snell all the minutes in the world - he'll never be Kawhi Leonard.

You want your young players to get some run - put them in g-league games.

Players stepping foot onto an NBA court, should be NBA talents.

I think it was actually Lonzo Ball over the summer on a podcast that talked about how the best 450 best basketball players in the world aren't in the NBA and there's several guys out of the league better than guys currently in the league. And people viewed it as a controversial statement but I think it's 100% true.

There's a lot of players in the NBA who are in the NBA out of some belief of what they could become and not because of what they can do for you right now.

It's tricky the find that balance.

I admire teams like Houston that are making their young players earn their minutes.

Patrick Williams has never earned to have more minutes than Derrick Jones Jr, Javonte Green, or Torrey Craig

It's not helping us. And it's not helping Williams. No ones benefitting from his entitlement minutes.

They actually have hurt him. True competition helps you grow.

Patrick has never shown that drive.

[meekrab]

Couldn't watch the game, was Buzelis as bad as the box score looks?

[samwana]

We need to get rid of Billy, how does he still have a job?

[panthermark]

They are why I have drifted away from the Bulls. I have spent half a decade watching the Bulls slowly drift into the iceberg.

1) Draft 2 guys using highish lottery picks.

2) Immediately start them, although they aren't good NBA starters as rookies, and in fact it's unclear if they will ever be good NBA starters. They are just guys who are losing us games in the first year that we start them, and might lose us games if we start then in the future. As they are doing this year.

3) Keep on playing them because, you know, they were highish lottery picks.

That's bad management 101. I know that fans are all excited to see rookies, thus the calls for Matas this year, but you neither establish a winning tradition nor do players any favors by giving them entitlement minutes.

First, make them earn their minutes in practice. If they're not a rotation-level player in practice, then forget them, they don't deserve NBA minutes. They can rot until they practice better or get released by the team.

Second, if they do earn their minutes in practice, do give them NBA minutes. Now they are worth the time and effort. But don't start them until they are clearly better than the alternatives. Forget that nonsense about how young players need "development" time. What they need to do to earn more minutes and eventually become a starter is to kick butt and take no prisoners when on the court. Be so good that the coach can't bench them.

There's more to talent evaluation than 1) we drafted this guy high, so 2) we're going to play him a lot and 3) after a while we will be rewarded for that investment. I wish it were so simple that every Chicago Bulls lottery pick will become a high-quality player, all we need to so is invest several thousand NBA minutes in him, but that is not how things work.

I agree strongly with a lot of this.

I think too many people view development like it's a video games and more time on the court equals more XP which will result in the player then magically becoming good.

You can give Tony Snell all the minutes in the world - he'll never be Kawhi Leonard.

You want your young players to get some run - put them in g-league games.

Players stepping foot onto an NBA court, should be NBA talents.

I think it was actually Lonzo Ball over the summer on a podcast that talked about how the best 450 best basketball players in the world aren't in the NBA and there's several guys out of the league better than guys currently in the league. And people viewed it as a controversial statement but I think it's 100% true.

There's a lot of players in the NBA who are in the NBA out of some belief of what they could become and not because of what they can do for you right now.

It's tricky the find that balance.

I admire teams like Houston that are making their young players earn their minutes.

Patrick Williams has never earned to have more minutes than Derrick Jones Jr, Javonte Green, or Torrey Craig

It's not helping us. And it's not helping Williams. No ones benefitting from his entitlement minutes.

They actually have hurt him. True competition helps you grow.

Patrick has never shown that drive.

He has no desire for competition, and would be perfectly content as a 9th man.

"Not everyone can be a star"- P-won't

[MrSparkle]

I'm pretty sure Billy wants to get fired, Reinsdorfs don't want to eat the money, and AK is stuck in the middle.

Honestly, this isn't rocket science. Coaching changes light a fire under players. It's not like Billy has had ANY remote record of proven success in *ANY* measurable department of basketball - just (purportedly) good player relationships.

Whatever shot of joy we had for Coby and Ayo's improvements are gone - they're both playing like below-average net-negative run-of-mill guards. Pat, Terry, Phillips are completely flat since their rookie debuts. Zach and Vuc are scoring well ; big deal. They already had 2 all-star games on their resumes, and if Billy deserves any credit for their improvement, then we the fans do too.

So far one of the more promising rookies the Bulls have drafted is looking like the step nephew of Marquis Teague and Dalen Terry.

Any time the Bulls look fine, it's because some single guy is playing some incredible basketball.

- Demar on fire
- Lonzo the high IQ 3D freak
- Goran the super 15mpg 6th man
- Coby's hot streaks
- Giddey looking like a triple-double machine instead of a triple-single

Vuc and Zach's scoring output with defensive issues has been a constant. I admit it's not easy to work with, but it's almost like it doesn't matter as so many other variables have changed around them, with the injuries and backup signings.

The overall team structure has looked fine for 2-3 weeks at a time, but most of the time, there's no linear improvement in lineups or individual players. 5Y the man has been here. Thibs' worst most hobbled 13/14 Nazr Mohammed roster would've whipped Billy's best team's ass in 5 games.

[Indomitable]

I agree strongly with a lot of this.

I think too many people view development like it's a video games and more time on the court equals more XP which will result in the player then magically becoming good.

You can give Tony Snell all the minutes in the world - he'll never be Kawhi Leonard.

You want your young players to get some run - put them in g-league games.

Players stepping foot onto an NBA court, should be NBA talents.

I think it was actually Lonzo Ball over the summer on a podcast that talked about how the best 450 best basketball players in the world aren't in the NBA and there's several guys out of the league better than guys currently in the league. And people viewed it as a controversial statement but I think it's 100% true.

There's a lot of players in the NBA who are in the NBA out of some belief of what they could become and not because of what they can do for you right now.

It's tricky the find that balance.

I admire teams like Houston that are making their young players earn their minutes.

Patrick Williams has never earned to have more minutes than Derrick Jones Jr, Javonte Green, or Torrey Craig

It's not helping us. And it's not helping Williams. No ones benefitting from his entitlement minutes.

They actually have hurt him. True competition helps you grow.

Patrick has never shown that drive.

He has no desire for competition, and would be perfectly content as a 9th man.

"Not everyone can be a star"- P-won't

Which is why paying him was foolish

[Indomitable]

On TV they tried to act like the Bulls shouldn't be trading anybody but even Stacey King has to see the lack of attention, or urgency or willingness to change the way they play by the some of the players. Williams had 7 points in the first quarter, the selfishness of others is why he didn't get the ball in order to attempt enough shots to score again. And proof of that is Vuc scored early and ended with 9 points after Stacey spent the first half saying the GSW had no one to guard him in the post. Ayo shot lghts ot wouldn't you think they would have looked at him for more than 10 shots.

Stacey and Adam both have this very annoying habit of when Williams, Zach, Giddey and others miss a wide open 3, saying I wish they would have taken that to the basket. Other teams rotate to cover a drive to the basket so it' snot automatic. Then you hear Billy after the game say they needed to shoot more 3's n the 2nd half. Well if guys were driving to the basket as the announcers want they'd be shooting even fewer 3's.


The Bulls as constructed with Demar, Zach, Lonzo and Vuc were designed to be a playoff team with veterans like Caruso coming off the bench. Lonzo goes down and so does the chance at making the playoffs. But starting that year NO deadline moves for 3 years to try and reset what was obviously a team NOT getting into the playoffs. Last summer you saw two big moves with DeRozan and Caruso, small move with Smith but those were not enough.

Look at who other teams with injuries bring off their bench against the Bulls, some with close to no NBA experience. They instantly score the basketball, bring energy and scramble on defense. Buzelis or Phillips try at least but aren't scaring the other team Terry is still not effective in any area so they've got THT, Carter and Craig when healthy.

Bring in the new VP right now and start cleaning house.

Patrick failure is all of Pats.