Retro Player of the Year 2009-10 — Lebron James

[One_and_Done]

Yeh it's more complex than that. In 07 Pau got hurt, the Grizzlies started out terribly, and then the front office threw the towel in. In 2008 the situation was that the front office had competing goals that inhibited winning. They wanted to win, but also insisted on playing bad players next to Pau.

In place of steady vet Shane Battier was a young Rudy Gay. I assume you followed Rudy's career enough to know that he was a notoriously bad player for most of his career; the kind who gets you stats but not wins. He turned it around late in his career with the Spurs, but starting 2nd year Rudy Gay was like putting a hole in your tyres. The front office also insisted on starting Darko, who they wanted to rehabilitate, and were still starting old(er) man Mighty Mouse too. Navarro and rookie Conley got extensive playing time also, starting 76 games between them. Obviously Conley would be a great player long term, but rookie point guards tend to kill you (Conley certainly did).

Pau actually led them to a commendable 6-10 start in these dire circumstances, bit the team was trying to push in 2 directions at once. They were designed as a rebuild team, and Pau was the odd man out.

[lessthanjake]

Yeh it's more complex than that. In 07 Pau got hurt, the Grizzlies started out terribly, and then the front office threw the towel in. In 2008 the situation was that the front office had competing goals that inhibited winning. They wanted to win, but also insisted on playing bad players next to Pau.

In place of steady vet Shane Battier was a young Rudy Gay. I assume you followed Rudy's career enough to know that he was a notoriously bad player for most of his career; the kind who gets you stats but not wins. He turned it around late in his career with the Spurs, but starting 2nd year Rudy Gay was like putting a hole in your tyres. The front office also insisted on starting Darko, who they wanted to rehabilitate, and were still starting old(er) man Mighty Mouse too. Navarro and rookie Conley got extensive playing time also, starting 76 games between them. Obviously Conley would be a great player long term, but rookie point guards tend to kill you (Conley certainly did).

Pau actually led them to a commendable 6-10 start in these dire circumstances, bit the team was trying to push in 2 directions at once. They were designed as a rebuild team, and Pau was the odd man out.

Yes, I agree they weren’t good. That much is definitely obvious. But Gasol wasn’t enough to make them not arguably the league’s worst team. In fact, in those years, they were just as bad with him as they were without him. And when the team was better in prior years, they won at a better pace without Pau than with Pau—though in no case did they win 55 games. I don’t see how you can look at this and think it indicates that Pau would’ve led the Lakers to 55 wins without Kobe. Nothing about Pau’s time with the Grizzlies actually indicates that.

If you want to make the argument, you’d just need to entirely rest on the idea that the Lakers went 6-3 with Pau and without Kobe in 2010. I assume that’s where you initially got the 55-win thing from, but obviously the sample size there is tiny.

[One_and_Done]

Yeh, I disagree, for the reasons outlined in this and other threads.

[ceoofkobefans]

I mean I cited a tonne of stuff that suggests exactly that, including various win records with and without Kobe. It's weird to argue otherwise, given Pau led a lesser Grizzlies team to 50ish wins in 3 straight years.

And by "50ish" you mean he led one 50-win team in 2004? Where's the math the Kobe-less Lakers were 5 wins better?

Well, the Lakers had a better team around Pau than Memphis did. One year Memphis starting 5 included Jake Tsakalidis/L.Wright & a washed Mighty Mouse/C.Atkins, at the 1 and 5. in contrast, the team starting around Pau would have been Odom, Bynum, Ariza, and Fisher, with Radmanovic, Farmer, and Walton off the bench. I prefer that alot more than the 06 Grizzlies support cast (who won 49 games).

The 06 grizzlies also had battier Eddie Jones and Mike Miller and they were lead by their defense which was 2nd in the league that year and the previous year they went 45-37 (+2.6 SRS and NRTG) despite Pau missing 26 games (went 17-9 with a +4.2 NRTG in the games without him btw) and from 05-08 the grizzlies had a 36 win pace by record (102-132) and a -.6 NRTG with Pau and a 31 win pace by record (36-58) and a -3.6 NRTG without Pau but I’m supposed to believe he’s leading a team surrounded with Derek fisher Lamar Odom Andrew Bynum Trevor ariza Jordan farmar Luke Walton and Vladimir Radmanovic to a 55 win record which is better than he ever did in Memphis without one of the best defenders in the league on his team?

[ceoofkobefans]

And by "50ish" you mean he led one 50-win team in 2004? Where's the math the Kobe-less Lakers were 5 wins better?

Yea the lakers had a 53-56 win pace before Pau got there when bynum was out but I’m supposed to believe they get better or even stay the same without their best scorer playmaker and arguably best defender on the roster lmao

That's just factually false stuff, which I have corrected like 5 times at this point. The Lakers in 08 were 11-9 in games with no Bynum or Pau. They were 24-11 with Bynum, then when he got hurt Pau came in and led them on a 22-5 run. The Lakers sans Pau/Bynum looked like a low to mid 40s win team... just like they looked from 05 to 07, and in the games from 00 to 07 without Shaq where Kobe led them to a 135-137 record.

Going 11-9 with Kwame brown Rony turiaf and Chris mihm as the starting center (with a +3.6 Net rating mind you) is very impressive and the lakers were significantly worse without Kobe from 05-07 and why are you including 05-07 for Kobe’s sample without Shaq when those are completely different teams from when they played together. Even 00 is a little disingenuous bc Kobe takes a leap after 2000 and you’re also purposely not looking at NRTG despite it being more predictive of team success bc it shows the gap between the lakers without Shaq compared to without Kobe being smaller. Yes the lakers had a 23-25 record with Kobe and without Shaq but they had a +1.5 NRTG from 00-04 (+4 with Shaq without Kobe btw) and if you look at 01-04 the lakers had a +1.9 NRTG with Kobe without Shaq and a +2.3 NRTG with Shaq without Kobe and the lakers were 6-12 with a -6 NRTG without Kobe in 05 and 06 (9-14 with a -4.3 NRTG from 05-07) but yes I’m so sure he had no lift and wasn’t impactful

[ceoofkobefans]

Yeh it's more complex than that. In 07 Pau got hurt, the Grizzlies started out terribly, and then the front office threw the towel in. In 2008 the situation was that the front office had competing goals that inhibited winning. They wanted to win, but also insisted on playing bad players next to Pau.

In place of steady vet Shane Battier was a young Rudy Gay. I assume you followed Rudy's career enough to know that he was a notoriously bad player for most of his career; the kind who gets you stats but not wins. He turned it around late in his career with the Spurs, but starting 2nd year Rudy Gay was like putting a hole in your tyres. The front office also insisted on starting Darko, who they wanted to rehabilitate, and were still starting old(er) man Mighty Mouse too. Navarro and rookie Conley got extensive playing time also, starting 76 games between them. Obviously Conley would be a great player long term, but rookie point guards tend to kill you (Conley certainly did).

Pau actually led them to a commendable 6-10 start in these dire circumstances, bit the team was trying to push in 2 directions at once. They were designed as a rebuild team, and Pau was the odd man out.

Yes, I agree they weren’t good. That much is definitely obvious. But Gasol wasn’t enough to make them not arguably the league’s worst team. In fact, in those years, they were just as bad with him as they were without him. And when the team was better in prior years, they won at a better pace without Pau than with Pau—though in no case did they win 55 games. I don’t see how you can look at this and think it indicates that Pau would’ve led the Lakers to 55 wins without Kobe. Nothing about Pau’s time with the Grizzlies actually indicates that.

If you want to make the argument, you’d just need to entirely rest on the idea that the Lakers went 6-3 with Pau and without Kobe in 2010. I assume that’s where you initially got the 55-win thing from, but obviously the sample size there is tiny.

Hell not even the on/off data we have from when Kobe and Pau played together suggests this. It actually suggests quite the opposite

From 08-10 (RS+PO) the lakers had a +9.5 NRTG in 7,647 minutes with Kobe and Pau, a +7.4 NRTG in 4,067 minutes with Kobe without Pau, and a +.5 NRTG with Pau and without Kobe in 1,354 minutes. From 08-11 it’s +9.2 with both in 10,366 minutes, +6.7 with Kobe without Pau in 4,481 minutes and +2.87 with Pau without Kobe in 2,029 minutes. From 08-12 it’s +8 with both in 12,675 minutes, +6 with Kobe without Pau in 4,880 minutes and +2.6 with Pau without Kobe in 2,594 minutes and from 08-13 it’s +7.5 with both (14,073 minutes) +4.9 with Kobe without Pau (6,495 minutes) +1.9 with Pau without Kobe (2,997 minutes) and if we use o&D’s logic with Shaq and Kobe the lakers went 19-35 with a -6.6 NRTG with Pau in 2014

[One_and_Done]

And by "50ish" you mean he led one 50-win team in 2004? Where's the math the Kobe-less Lakers were 5 wins better?

Well, the Lakers had a better team around Pau than Memphis did. One year Memphis starting 5 included Jake Tsakalidis/L.Wright & a washed Mighty Mouse/C.Atkins, at the 1 and 5. in contrast, the team starting around Pau would have been Odom, Bynum, Ariza, and Fisher, with Radmanovic, Farmer, and Walton off the bench. I prefer that alot more than the 06 Grizzlies support cast (who won 49 games).

The 06 grizzlies also had battier Eddie Jones and Mike Miller and they were lead by their defense which was 2nd in the league that year and the previous year they went 45-37 (+2.6 SRS and NRTG) despite Pau missing 26 games (went 17-9 with a +4.2 NRTG in the games without him btw) and from 05-08 the grizzlies had a 36 win pace by record (102-132) and a -.6 NRTG with Pau and a 31 win pace by record (36-58) and a -3.6 NRTG without Pau but I’m supposed to believe he’s leading a team surrounded with Derek fisher Lamar Odom Andrew Bynum Trevor ariza Jordan farmar Luke Walton and Vladimir Radmanovic to a 55 win record which is better than he ever did in Memphis without one of the best defenders in the league on his team?

The Grizzlies had 34 year old Eddie Jones, who was 2 years away from being out of the league. He was nothing but a role player at that point. Mike Miller was a solid-ish starter and nice bench player; a good guy to have. Nobody said Pau's team was destitute of talent. The were pretty ordinary though. He was playing next to 2 below average players at the 1 & 5, and they had a few injuries too. Odom would easily have been the 2nd best player on that Grizzlies team, yet Pau led them to the 5th best SRS in the league. Pau was very underrated by most fans at the time, and continues to be underrated by a certain segment of fans now.

[One_and_Done]

Yeh it's more complex than that. In 07 Pau got hurt, the Grizzlies started out terribly, and then the front office threw the towel in. In 2008 the situation was that the front office had competing goals that inhibited winning. They wanted to win, but also insisted on playing bad players next to Pau.

In place of steady vet Shane Battier was a young Rudy Gay. I assume you followed Rudy's career enough to know that he was a notoriously bad player for most of his career; the kind who gets you stats but not wins. He turned it around late in his career with the Spurs, but starting 2nd year Rudy Gay was like putting a hole in your tyres. The front office also insisted on starting Darko, who they wanted to rehabilitate, and were still starting old(er) man Mighty Mouse too. Navarro and rookie Conley got extensive playing time also, starting 76 games between them. Obviously Conley would be a great player long term, but rookie point guards tend to kill you (Conley certainly did).

Pau actually led them to a commendable 6-10 start in these dire circumstances, bit the team was trying to push in 2 directions at once. They were designed as a rebuild team, and Pau was the odd man out.

Yes, I agree they weren’t good. That much is definitely obvious. But Gasol wasn’t enough to make them not arguably the league’s worst team. In fact, in those years, they were just as bad with him as they were without him. And when the team was better in prior years, they won at a better pace without Pau than with Pau—though in no case did they win 55 games. I don’t see how you can look at this and think it indicates that Pau would’ve led the Lakers to 55 wins without Kobe. Nothing about Pau’s time with the Grizzlies actually indicates that.

If you want to make the argument, you’d just need to entirely rest on the idea that the Lakers went 6-3 with Pau and without Kobe in 2010. I assume that’s where you initially got the 55-win thing from, but obviously the sample size there is tiny.

Hell not even the on/off data we have from when Kobe and Pau played together suggests this. It actually suggests quite the opposite

From 08-10 (RS+PO) the lakers had a +9.5 NRTG in 7,647 minutes with Kobe and Pau, a +7.4 NRTG in 4,067 minutes with Kobe without Pau, and a +.5 NRTG with Pau and without Kobe in 1,354 minutes. From 08-11 it’s +9.2 with both in 10,366 minutes, +6.7 with Kobe without Pau in 4,481 minutes and +2.87 with Pau without Kobe in 2,029 minutes. From 08-12 it’s +8 with both in 12,675 minutes, +6 with Kobe without Pau in 4,880 minutes and +2.6 with Pau without Kobe in 2,594 minutes and from 08-13 it’s +7.5 with both (14,073 minutes) +4.9 with Kobe without Pau (6,495 minutes) +1.9 with Pau without Kobe (2,997 minutes) and if we use o&D’s logic with Shaq and Kobe the lakers went 19-35 with a -6.6 NRTG with Pau in 2014

I am not much into on/off. I wouldn't be citing it as a Kobe fan though, because based on most on/off numbers Kobe has no business in any of these top 5 ballots.

[ceoofkobefans]

That's just factually false stuff, which I have corrected like 5 times at this point. The Lakers in 08 were 11-9 in games with no Bynum or Pau. They were 24-11 with Bynum, then when he got hurt Pau came in and led them on a 22-5 run. The Lakers sans Pau/Bynum looked like a low to mid 40s win team... just like they looked from 05 to 07, and in the games from 00 to 07 without Shaq where Kobe led them to a 135-137 record.

how do the lakers being 24-11 with Kobe show they would have been 55-win without him?

Well they'd be replacing him with a guy who led the Lakers on a 22-5 run minus Bynum, and as you can see from the above splits Bynum was pretty important.

yea pau was the one leading that run not kobe I'm sure of it

[ceoofkobefans]

Well, the Lakers had a better team around Pau than Memphis did. One year Memphis starting 5 included Jake Tsakalidis/L.Wright & a washed Mighty Mouse/C.Atkins, at the 1 and 5. in contrast, the team starting around Pau would have been Odom, Bynum, Ariza, and Fisher, with Radmanovic, Farmer, and Walton off the bench. I prefer that alot more than the 06 Grizzlies support cast (who won 49 games).

The 06 grizzlies also had battier Eddie Jones and Mike Miller and they were lead by their defense which was 2nd in the league that year and the previous year they went 45-37 (+2.6 SRS and NRTG) despite Pau missing 26 games (went 17-9 with a +4.2 NRTG in the games without him btw) and from 05-08 the grizzlies had a 36 win pace by record (102-132) and a -.6 NRTG with Pau and a 31 win pace by record (36-58) and a -3.6 NRTG without Pau but I’m supposed to believe he’s leading a team surrounded with Derek fisher Lamar Odom Andrew Bynum Trevor ariza Jordan farmar Luke Walton and Vladimir Radmanovic to a 55 win record which is better than he ever did in Memphis without one of the best defenders in the league on his team?

The Grizzlies had 34 year old Eddie Jones, who was 2 years away from being out of the league. He was nothing but a role player at that point. Mike Miller was a solid-ish starter and nice bench player; a good guy to have. Nobody said Pau's team was destitute of talent. The were pretty ordinary though. He was playing next to 2 below average players at the 1 & 5, and they had a few injuries too. Odom would easily have been the 2nd best player on that Grizzlies team, yet Pau led them to the 5th best SRS in the league. Pau was very underrated by most fans at the time, and continues to be underrated by a certain segment of fans now.

lamar odom was not better than shane battier in 2006 lmao

[One_and_Done]

Yea the lakers had a 53-56 win pace before Pau got there when bynum was out but I’m supposed to believe they get better or even stay the same without their best scorer playmaker and arguably best defender on the roster lmao

That's just factually false stuff, which I have corrected like 5 times at this point. The Lakers in 08 were 11-9 in games with no Bynum or Pau. They were 24-11 with Bynum, then when he got hurt Pau came in and led them on a 22-5 run. The Lakers sans Pau/Bynum looked like a low to mid 40s win team... just like they looked from 05 to 07, and in the games from 00 to 07 without Shaq where Kobe led them to a 135-137 record.

Going 11-9 with Kwame brown Rony turiaf and Chris mihm as the starting center (with a +3.6 Net rating mind you) is very impressive and the lakers were significantly worse without Kobe from 05-07 and why are you including 05-07 for Kobe’s sample without Shaq when those are completely different teams from when they played together. Even 00 is a little disingenuous bc Kobe takes a leap after 2000 and you’re also purposely not looking at NRTG despite it being more predictive of team success bc it shows the gap between the lakers without Shaq compared to without Kobe being smaller. Yes the lakers had a 23-25 record with Kobe and without Shaq but they had a +1.5 NRTG from 00-04 (+4 with Shaq without Kobe btw) and if you look at 01-04 the lakers had a +1.9 NRTG with Kobe without Shaq and a +2.3 NRTG with Shaq without Kobe and the lakers were 6-12 with a -6 NRTG without Kobe in 05 and 06 (9-14 with a -4.3 NRTG from 05-07) but yes I’m so sure he had no lift and wasn’t impactful

You complain about Kobe having to play next to a weak 5 man in 08, but in 06 Pau's 5 men were Jake T and Lorenzen Wright who are even worse. For all that he was a disappointing #1 pick, Kwame had a long career as a solid 5 man, including for the Lakers. Mihm, until his injury, was a solid 5 man. He was basically done by 08 though. Turiaf was a bench big, nothing special, but had alot of hussle and heart. I like him better than big Jake T for sure. Jake T was a 15th man type of player.

Then Pau had substandard players at the 1 too.

[One_and_Done]

The 06 grizzlies also had battier Eddie Jones and Mike Miller and they were lead by their defense which was 2nd in the league that year and the previous year they went 45-37 (+2.6 SRS and NRTG) despite Pau missing 26 games (went 17-9 with a +4.2 NRTG in the games without him btw) and from 05-08 the grizzlies had a 36 win pace by record (102-132) and a -.6 NRTG with Pau and a 31 win pace by record (36-58) and a -3.6 NRTG without Pau but I’m supposed to believe he’s leading a team surrounded with Derek fisher Lamar Odom Andrew Bynum Trevor ariza Jordan farmar Luke Walton and Vladimir Radmanovic to a 55 win record which is better than he ever did in Memphis without one of the best defenders in the league on his team?

The Grizzlies had 34 year old Eddie Jones, who was 2 years away from being out of the league. He was nothing but a role player at that point. Mike Miller was a solid-ish starter and nice bench player; a good guy to have. Nobody said Pau's team was destitute of talent. The were pretty ordinary though. He was playing next to 2 below average players at the 1 & 5, and they had a few injuries too. Odom would easily have been the 2nd best player on that Grizzlies team, yet Pau led them to the 5th best SRS in the league. Pau was very underrated by most fans at the time, and continues to be underrated by a certain segment of fans now.

lamar odom was not better than shane battier in 2006 lmao

Lamar Odom was clearly better than Shane Battier. That's not just my view, it's the view of NBA GMs who paid Lamar more than double the career salary of Battier (despite some terrible negotiating by his agent on the Lakers, and a career cut short).

Battier was a nice 3&D player. Every team would love to have him. But 3&D guys help teams who are already good; they can't move the needle much for a bad team (which is why Battier was powerless to make so many of his bad teams play well). If you add Bruce Bowen or Ariza to a 20 win team, they are likely still a 20 win team. So while Battier was a better fit on the Heatles than Odom would have been, he definitely wasn't close to a better player.

[70sFan]

I can see the Lakers being around 50% without Kobe, depending on the roster health maybe even finishing slightly above that. 50+ wins pace is ridiculous and after this long discussion in which One_and_Done provided his best arguments, I think it's quite clear that it's based on complete nonsense and the only reason he shares this view is to back up his claim that Kobe is not top 5 player in 2008-10 window.

[70sFan]

In a sense, that’s fine, since there’s not much else a younger basketball fan can really do—after all, without contemporaneously watching basketball in an era, it’s difficult to know much about the non-stars.

You can do a lot more than that, you can study the state of the league and watch as many games as possible without focusing only on stars. I started watching NBA in 2012 and yet I gained knowledge about roleplayers from the 1960s and 1970s simply by watching games and discussing about them here.

Of course that will never give you the contemporary knowledge and I still don't know a lot about roleplayers pre-merger, but it's more than that.

But combining that with statements that “[y]ou should consider watching basketball gams instead of box-scores” is wild.

I agree, it's ridiculous take.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Kobe Bryant - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Finals MVP. Kobe kind of cruised through the RS and the first round against OKC before totally stepping up in the final three rounds of the PS and led the Lakers to another title. Kobe offered some good and very resilient scoring with solid playmaking and defense. Averaged 27.0/5.4/5.0 on +0.2 rTS in the RS then 29.2/6.0/5.5 on +3.3 rTS in the PS.

2. Dwyane Wade - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. Wade had a dominant PS showing against the Celtics, dominating a really good playoff defense. Quite simply, he looks like he has a case as the best player in the NBA and I don't have an issue with someone putting him at #1. Averaged 26.6/4.8/6.5 on +1.9 rTS in the RS then 33.2/5.6/6.8 on +11.6 rTS in the PS.

3. Lebron James - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. MVP. Lebron had another fantastic floor-raising RS just a bit behind 2009 and going into the 2nd round of the playoffs, he looked like a definite frontrunner. He would really have to underperform badly to lose it from here on out... and he proceeded to do just that playing absolutely horribly down the stretch of the Celtics series while losing three consecutive games. It was so bad that commentators were talking about how passive, scared, distracted etc. Lebron looked and rumours started swirling as to why. His box score averages looked decent because of Game 1 and Game 3 but it really was a terrible performance. His averages in the last three games were 21.3/11.3/8.3 on -6.6 rTS with 6.3 topg. Those who weren't watching the series or just look at the total numbers can put Lebron #1 but I can't. Not when his subpar play heavily contributed to his team losing in the PS and as a series favorite no less. Averaged 29.7/7.3/8.6 on +6.1 rTS in the RS then 29.1/9.3/7.6 on +7.7 rTS in the PS.

4. Dwight Howard - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. DPOY. Led the Magic to the best SRS in the league and then into the ECF where they lost to the Celtics. Dwight was again an all-star caliber big on offense while being the league's best defender. He could be argued higher on the list but I don't think his PS stands out in any major way. Averaged 18.3/13.2/1.8 on +8.7 rTS in the RS then 18.1/11.4/1.4 on +7.4 rTS in the PS.

5. Steve Nash - 2nd Team All-NBA. Led the #1 offense in Phoenix yet again with a completely different group of guys than from 2005-2007 and with a different coach. Just a terrific floor general whose game definitely translates into the PS. Averaged 16.5/3.3/11.0 on +7.2 rTS in the RS then 17.8/3.3/10.1 on +10.4 rTS in the PS.

OPOY

1. Kobe Bryant - Amazing scorer and solid playmaker.

2. Dwyane Wade - Amazing scoring efficiency in the PS. Good playmaker.

3. Lebron James - Great scorer and playmaker. Prone to meltdowns as seen vs. the Celtics.

DPOY

1. Dwight Howard - DPOY. Most impactful defender in the league at this point.

2. Kevin Garnett - Though older, still so good at covering ground on defense. Celtics' defense went up a notch in the PS and KG was a big part of it.

3. Tim Duncan - Still anchors a good -3.1 rDRtg defense. Great paint protector.

[jjgp111292]

See, I just don't get how you can put Wade above him off the strength of a single playoff series when the regular season gap is that substantial.

[Djoker]

See, I just don't get how you can put Wade above him off the strength of a single playoff series when the regular season gap is that substantial.

Both had short PS runs but Wade's was substantially better. It wasn't an easy decision because Lebron did have a much better RS.

[AEnigma]

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Dwight Howard
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Andrew Bogut
HM: Crash Wallace

Howard again an easy #1 as the most valuable regular season defender with a conference finals run. Garnett and Bogut both missed more time, but with Garnett coming within a couple of baskets from another title, he is a locked in second place. Debate for third was between Bogut and Crash, as the primary defenders on the league’s top two defences. I am siding with Bogut because I think he was the league’s most purely impactful defender (the 2009-11 Bucks were 6.7 points worse defensively without him) and because I attribute the Bobcats’ top defensive finish more to Larry Brown (and Bogut’s missed time on the Bucks!) than any individual brilliance from Crash, but both are similarly merited.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Steve Nash
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Lebron James

Nash makes his final appearance atop this ballot with his fourth (and final) conference finals run and seventh (and final) league-leading offence. Still the league’s best shooter and passer. Dishes out some minor revenge on the Spurs before bowing out against the superior Lakers. Scoring volume is down a bit, but overall another year on par with the immaculate 2005-07. No D’Antoni, no problem.

Will give Wade credit here for performing better offensively against the Celtics than Lebron did and for shouldering a similarly titanic offensive load. But Lebron was too good for the rest of the season to move him below Deron or Kobe (although I considered it).

[parapooper]

LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's bottom 3 games against the same team (GmScore average)
15.0 vs 13.4

LeBron's breathtaking 3-game collapse vs. Kobe's entire 6-game first round
15.0 vs 12.9

LeBron vs Kobe avg games scores for each round:
29.5 vs 12.9
22.0 vs 21.9
---- 28.8
---- 18.7
25.4 vs 20.4 avg.


Lebron vs Kobe BPM:
RS:
11.8 (1st) vs 4.1 (15th)
top10ish vs top700ish? all time
PS:
11.5 (2nd) vs. 7.0 (7th)

similar story in other stats

So LeBron has a waaaaaay superior RS, but Kobe makes up that _gigantic_ gap and more by playing worse in the playoffs where he should have been out in the first round based on his play as a first option

[canada_dry]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Kobe Bryant - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Finals MVP. Kobe kind of cruised through the RS and the first round against OKC before totally stepping up in the final three rounds of the PS and led the Lakers to another title. Kobe offered some good and very resilient scoring with solid playmaking and defense. Averaged 27.0/5.4/5.0 on +0.2 rTS in the RS then 29.2/6.0/5.5 on +3.3 rTS in the PS.

2. Dwyane Wade - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. Wade had a dominant PS showing against the Celtics, dominating a really good playoff defense. Quite simply, he looks like he has a case as the best player in the NBA and I don't have an issue with someone putting him at #1. Averaged 26.6/4.8/6.5 on +1.9 rTS in the RS then 33.2/5.6/6.8 on +11.6 rTS in the PS.

3. Lebron James - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. MVP. Lebron had another fantastic floor-raising RS just a bit behind 2009 and going into the 2nd round of the playoffs, he looked like a definite frontrunner. He would really have to underperform badly to lose it from here on out... and he proceeded to do just that playing absolutely horribly down the stretch of the Celtics series while losing three consecutive games. It was so bad that commentators were talking about how passive, scared, distracted etc. Lebron looked and rumours started swirling as to why. His box score averages looked decent because of Game 1 and Game 3 but it really was a terrible performance. His averages in the last three games were 21.3/11.3/8.3 on -6.6 rTS with 6.3 topg. Those who weren't watching the series or just look at the total numbers can put Lebron #1 but I can't. Not when his subpar play heavily contributed to his team losing in the PS and as a series favorite no less. Averaged 29.7/7.3/8.6 on +6.1 rTS in the RS then 29.1/9.3/7.6 on +7.7 rTS in the PS.

4. Dwight Howard - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. DPOY. Led the Magic to the best SRS in the league and then into the ECF where they lost to the Celtics. Dwight was again an all-star caliber big on offense while being the league's best defender. He could be argued higher on the list but I don't think his PS stands out in any major way. Averaged 18.3/13.2/1.8 on +8.7 rTS in the RS then 18.1/11.4/1.4 on +7.4 rTS in the PS.

5. Steve Nash - 2nd Team All-NBA. Led the #1 offense in Phoenix yet again with a completely different group of guys than from 2005-2007 and with a different coach. Just a terrific floor general whose game definitely translates into the PS. Averaged 16.5/3.3/11.0 on +7.2 rTS in the RS then 17.8/3.3/10.1 on +10.4 rTS in the PS.

OPOY

1. Kobe Bryant - Amazing scorer and solid playmaker.

2. Dwyane Wade - Amazing scoring efficiency in the PS. Good playmaker.

3. Lebron James - Great scorer and playmaker. Prone to meltdowns as seen vs. the Celtics.

DPOY

1. Dwight Howard - DPOY. Most impactful defender in the league at this point.

2. Kevin Garnett - Though older, still so good at covering ground on defense. Celtics' defense went up a notch in the PS and KG was a big part of it.

3. Tim Duncan - Still anchors a good -3.1 rDRtg defense. Great paint protector.

Wait how is nash not even top 3 opoy on your list here yet hes top 5 overall? His ranking top 5 overall has to be on the back of his very impactful offense, right? Hes hardly a 2 way guy lol

inconvenient truth...we're too good! -Phil Blackson