PG (@Atl): Raps take Hawk Two-ah in Atlanta

[tsherkin]

Jimmy Butler?

What about him? The old, injured player who wants reams of money and doesn't want to hit a situation unless it's win-now? He's not coming here, and we don't have the pieces to get him AND build around him.

[Merit]

Jimmy Butler?

What about him? The old, injured player who wants reams of money and doesn't want to hit a situation unless it's win-now? He's not coming here, and we don't have the pieces to get him AND build around him.

I don’t think Jimmy is coming here, but I’m asking because I’m trying to figure out your valuation of players.

Now I could argue that we would absolutely have the pieces to both acquire him and build around him, but I, like you, am more interested in a tank. I’m also interested in aggregating our talent. I’ve argued in favour of a Wiggins trade before and most recently argued in favour of an Ingram trade. Of the two, I’d rather have Wiggins because he fits in with our defensive focus for this season and he becomes a valuable depth piece moving forward.

Let me ask a different question then: what would you like to see happen with our expiring contracts? Would you choose to re-sign Bruce Brown? Until this week I hadn’t seen the Bruce Brown I remember from Denver.

What would you like management to do? From what I’m observing they want to compete next season and are positioning themselves to do that.

[Merit]

Yeah - I consider a lineup with Ingram in it similar to the 'ol 2000's pistons in that just about everyone scored - even Ben Wallace got a 10 spot.

Almost. He technically never had a 10 ppg season in his career, maxing out at 9.7, and only scored over 7.6 ppg twice in his career. Most years, he was more like a 6 or 7 ppg guy.

Ingram just isn't an upgrade of a scorer. He's a league-average efficiency guy in a good year and hasn't been over it in half a decade. And he's NEVER healthy. My guy hasn't played 63+ games since his rookie season in 2017. He doesn't get to the rim and he's crap-useless in the middle space, and isn't an elite 3pt shooter or foul-shammer (this year's weird, though; normally he's at least above average at drawing fouls).

For example, do I like Jaylen Brown? Not really - but he gets calls.

This year, relatively speaking, sure. He actually isn't a stunner at drawing fouls, he's a sub .300 FTr guy, but the league average draw rate has dropped so much with all the 3pt spam that he looks good.

I think the more useful aspect of his game is that he's another ball handler who can advance under pressure and he allows Tatum to get to the elbow or the mid post, fade to the corner, etc. Brown can run a PnR to get southbound and start Boston's offense going, and all that is quite useful. His scoring ability isn't particularly good, but that's not what makes him useful. It limits his overall utility and impact, but there is something to be said for that sort of player if the rest of the team is good enough at scoring. And Boston is horrifying when their 3s are falling.

Ingram would definitely be a backwards move for us, IMHO. Do not support it at all, I'd hate that a ton.

Yeah Ben Wallace wasn't the focal point of that - moreso that Jak is better than he is offensively. Now Ben was a monster defensively, and did a bunch of the floater/sweeper stuff that Scottie currently does for us. I'm saying synergistically, the lineups would have different players in the roles, but similar impacts overall - at least that's my hypothesis without digging too deeply.

In terms of Jaylen, he is another person who scores in the 20's and gets suspect/preferential calls. We have many players who also bring the ball up the court and have a similar offensive bag. RJ Barrett compares to him favourably in terms of contract and impact in terms of OBPM/DPM/BPM and VORP this year. No idea why people think Jaylen brown is worth the max in comparison. In terms of rim pressure, RJ does a far better job, but even when scoring above 20 this year, his FTR is currently the second lowest of his career - yet it's better than Jaylen's. I'll take the extra value and youth and contract for those reasons. There is also still room for growth.

Ingram not being healthy is a fact. It's why he wants to come here (McKechnie). My thought on Ingram is that he was forced to be more of a focal point offensively (Zion injuries, poor management) and because of his counting stats he feels he's worth a max. I don't think he gets the max from anybody, and I'm good with him on a contract similar to IQ. Brandon Ingram is able to create for others though, and given the ball movement offence he'd be coming into - that skill plays up. He would also help our spacing. Ingram has been consistently solid in terms of 3pt% and in terms of shot creation. He averaged 37.2% from 3 with the Pelicans. Compare that with Pascal who's at 41% this year but averaged 32.7% with us. Ingram would play the 3 on the Raptors, shifting scottie to the 4, RJ to the 2, and Gradey to the bench where he belongs (currently). Ingram can do a little bit of everything, and I'm curious how he would be optimized in our system. I feel he makes a similar improvement to RJ, and if he reduces his own usage rate (and further reduces RJ's usage rate given that's who he's likely to take shots from) I'm good with it. To me that is a realistic outcome.

I still like Wiggins better for the tank, and he's better defensively and in terms of what his role and salary expectations would be moving forward. He's an easier fit on our team. That said, I'm not as averse to Ingram as you are. Defences will be forced to account for him and he makes more sense for us than Bruce Brown does. If you were to say that we traded Pascal for two firsts, Ochai, Kelly and Brandon Ingram - I'd say most people would say we got the better end of that deal. The same applies to Wiggins, albeit for different reasons.

[tsherkin]

Yeah Ben Wallace wasn't the focal point of that

Oh, I figured. And me picking at nits over 0.3 ppg wasn't meant to be a serious comment regarding Wallace. We all know what he was: a low-scoring defensive monster who smashed the boards. He was a demon, particularly in-era.

Ingram not being healthy is a fact. It's why he wants to come here (McKechnie). My thought on Ingram is that he was forced to be more of a focal point offensively (Zion injuries, poor management) and because of his counting stats he feels he's worth a max. I don't think he gets the max from anybody, and I'm good with him on a contract similar to IQ. Brandon Ingram is able to create for others though, and given the ball movement offence he'd be coming into - that skill plays up. He would also help our spacing. Ingram has been consistently solid in terms of 3pt% and in terms of shot creation. He averaged 37.2% from 3 with the Pelicans. Compare that with Pascal who's at 41% this year but averaged 32.7% with us. Ingram would play the 3 on the Raptors, shifting scottie to the 4, RJ to the 2, and Gradey to the bench where he belongs (currently). Ingram can do a little bit of everything, and I'm curious how he would be optimized in our system. I feel he makes a similar improvement to RJ, and if he reduces his own usage rate (and further reduces RJ's usage rate given that's who he's likely to take shots from) I'm good with it. To me that is a realistic outcome.

I see where you're coming from. I still don't want him. He becomes an investment for us, and he is an established player. We have inefficient/mediocre dudes who can shoot the three, and with RJ seeming to improve as far as creating for others, and Scottie doing that, and IQ and stuff, I'm not really excited about what Ingram brings. On top of his health issues. I don't hate the idea of shifting Scottie to the 4 and Gradey to the bench, but like, Ingram becomes a piece to keep and he doesn't excite me at all in terms of actually building a winner.

I still like Wiggins better for the tank, and he's better defensively and in terms of what his role and salary expectations would be moving forward. He's an easier fit on our team. That said, I'm not as averse to Ingram as you are. Defences will be forced to account for him and he makes more sense for us than Bruce Brown does. If you were to say that we traded Pascal for two firsts, Ochai, Kelly and Brandon Ingram - I'd say most people would say we got the better end of that deal. The same applies to Wiggins, albeit for different reasons.

Ah, for the tank. Well, that's a different story. Wiggins certainly wouldn't hurt the tank. I don't know the finances, I generally am not super involved with contracts and all that stuff, but he wouldn't really do much to help us win more than we are now, which helps that thought. He has, what, a year left and a PO after that?

[Merit]

Yeah Ben Wallace wasn't the focal point of that

Oh, I figured. And me picking at nits over 0.3 ppg wasn't meant to be a serious comment regarding Wallace. We all know what he was: a low-scoring defensive monster who smashed the boards. He was a demon, particularly in-era.

Ingram not being healthy is a fact. It's why he wants to come here (McKechnie). My thought on Ingram is that he was forced to be more of a focal point offensively (Zion injuries, poor management) and because of his counting stats he feels he's worth a max. I don't think he gets the max from anybody, and I'm good with him on a contract similar to IQ. Brandon Ingram is able to create for others though, and given the ball movement offence he'd be coming into - that skill plays up. He would also help our spacing. Ingram has been consistently solid in terms of 3pt% and in terms of shot creation. He averaged 37.2% from 3 with the Pelicans. Compare that with Pascal who's at 41% this year but averaged 32.7% with us. Ingram would play the 3 on the Raptors, shifting scottie to the 4, RJ to the 2, and Gradey to the bench where he belongs (currently). Ingram can do a little bit of everything, and I'm curious how he would be optimized in our system. I feel he makes a similar improvement to RJ, and if he reduces his own usage rate (and further reduces RJ's usage rate given that's who he's likely to take shots from) I'm good with it. To me that is a realistic outcome.

I see where you're coming from. I still don't want him. He becomes an investment for us, and he is an established player. We have inefficient/mediocre dudes who can shoot the three, and with RJ seeming to improve as far as creating for others, and Scottie doing that, and IQ and stuff, I'm not really excited about what Ingram brings. On top of his health issues. I don't hate the idea of shifting Scottie to the 4 and Gradey to the bench, but like, Ingram becomes a piece to keep and he doesn't excite me at all in terms of actually building a winner.

I still like Wiggins better for the tank, and he's better defensively and in terms of what his role and salary expectations would be moving forward. He's an easier fit on our team. That said, I'm not as averse to Ingram as you are. Defences will be forced to account for him and he makes more sense for us than Bruce Brown does. If you were to say that we traded Pascal for two firsts, Ochai, Kelly and Brandon Ingram - I'd say most people would say we got the better end of that deal. The same applies to Wiggins, albeit for different reasons.

Ah, for the tank. Well, that's a different story. Wiggins certainly wouldn't hurt the tank. I don't know the finances, I generally am not super involved with contracts and all that stuff, but he wouldn't really do much to help us win more than we are now, which helps that thought. He has, what, a year left and a PO after that?

Honestly, not even exclusively for the tank. I just meant this season we can still tank if we get either Wigs or Ingram. The way I see it is we get the BPA, plus an undervalued asset in either Wigs or Ingram. We then get to rehabilitate their value and either keep them or move them down the road again.

Contracts are also important to consider. It’s the reason both players are available, frankly. I’m not perfect with the cap - but I feel confident in value plays such as the one for RJ. To me, this would be another example of that.

To answer your question, Wigs is under contract next year at 28 mil, and then has a player option the year after at 30 mil. Given he’s crossing 30 and is Canadian, I can see him being a key rotation piece moving forward. Think Uncle Jeff Green. IMO his athleticism is that elite.

[tsherkin]

Honestly, not even exclusively for the tank. I just meant this season we can still tank if we get either Wigs or Ingram. The way I see it is we get the BPA, plus an undervalued asset in either Wigs or Ingram. We then get to rehabilitate their value and either keep them or move them down the road again.

If Wiggins is cheap, fine.

But he's stupid (on the court) and lazy, and he offers very little unless he's playing with motivation. Some years, he's a pretty good corner 3pt shooter who can D up. And some years, he's a waste of skin who looks like he has spent the last decade flushing all his gifts and potential down the toilet.

[Merit]

Honestly, not even exclusively for the tank. I just meant this season we can still tank if we get either Wigs or Ingram. The way I see it is we get the BPA, plus an undervalued asset in either Wigs or Ingram. We then get to rehabilitate their value and either keep them or move them down the road again.

If Wiggins is cheap, fine.

But he's stupid (on the court) and lazy, and he offers very little unless he's playing with motivation. Some years, he's a pretty good corner 3pt shooter who can D up. And some years, he's a waste of skin who looks like he has spent the last decade flushing all his gifts and potential down the toilet.

Agree on the laziness. I feel he needs a bit of coddling and he’ll get that here. I also think he’s had some tough stuff happening in his life (as has RJ) but hasn’t handled it well. No idea if that pans out, but that perception is precisely why he’s available for cheap. That and he’s a tier below the greats but has a salary that could potentially land one of them in aggregate.

Home cooking for the win?

That’s the hope anyway. I agree with your assessment of him as a player though. It’s the same as with Uncle Jeff, frankly. Could’ve done so much more.

[tsherkin]

Agree on the laziness. I feel he needs a bit of coddling and he’ll get that here. I also think he’s had some tough stuff happening in his life (as has RJ) but hasn’t handled it well.

Can't say I really care, to be honest. That happens to everyone. We all still show up to work, only we aren't being paid 20, 30 million dollars a year.

That’s the hope anyway. I agree with your assessment of him as a player though. It’s the same as with Uncle Jeff, frankly. Could’ve done so much more.

Jeff Green wasn't stupid or lazy. He was a journeyman who got a lot more valuable in his 30s than in his youth. Took more 3s, drew more fouls, cut down his turnovers, significant improvement at the line but remained inconsistent from 3. He was what he was. He never really had the tools or the hype around him we saw with Wiggins, so he's not a great analog IMHO.

[Merit]

Agree on the laziness. I feel he needs a bit of coddling and he’ll get that here. I also think he’s had some tough stuff happening in his life (as has RJ) but hasn’t handled it well.

Can't say I really care, to be honest. That happens to everyone. We all still show up to work, only we aren't being paid 20, 30 million dollars a year.

That’s the hope anyway. I agree with your assessment of him as a player though. It’s the same as with Uncle Jeff, frankly. Could’ve done so much more.

Jeff Green wasn't stupid or lazy. He was a journeyman who got a lot more valuable in his 30s than in his youth. Took more 3s, drew more fouls, cut down his turnovers, significant improvement at the line but remained inconsistent from 3. He was what he was. He never really had the tools or the hype around him we saw with Wiggins, so he's not a great analog IMHO.

We can agree to disagree on both of the above.

[tsherkin]

We can agree to disagree on both of the above.

You're welcome to disagree with the former, as it is subjective.

There is far less room to disagree with what said about Green, however. He was much better in his 30s than Wiggins has been in general at any point. A much more valuable roleplayer. Wiggins isn't without ability, he just doesn't string it together consistently and he isn't a good offensive player.