2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

[RCM88x]

Donovan Mitchell in his last 7 Games:

30.4 PPG
6.0 APG
3.7 RPG
1.4 SPG
46/36/87 Splits
60% TS
+12 Net Rating per Game

He’s scored 30+ 5 out of 7 Games.


Hoping he's starting to regress towards historical mean for the restricted area shooting because he's been well below his past standards.

2025: 59% in restricted area
2024: 66% in RA
2023: 68% in RA

He hasn't looked as bouncy this year as years past.

Agree on the hasn't looked as bouncy comment, while he's been better the last few games, I do think he's maybe lost a half step. Curious if its due to the knee issue he's been dealing with on and off for the past year or so or if its just an age thing. I also feel like the success the team has had this year has allowed him to coast a bit more and not really push himself to play his best. So the last few games have been promising (even though the team hasn't looked great overall) that he can still be an elite scorer. Cavs will need the best version of him to advance deep in the playoffs.

[eminence]

Question for the room - where do folks rank Jokic as a rebounder all-time? Preferably splitting O/D - very non-traditional offensive role for a big.

[AEnigma]

Eh, rebounding can have such a variable range based on how you factor era. Maybe top fifteen to twenty as a defensive rebounder (could go a little higher, more easily could go lower), and then downgrading at least another five spots or so as an overall rebounder. Definitely a product of era that he does not do much on the offensive glass… but all the same, tough for me to not see him lose ground when including it.

[Special_Puppy]

Question for the room - where do folks rank Jokic as a rebounder all-time? Preferably splitting O/D - very non-traditional offensive role for a big.

Jeremy Engelmann produced career rebounding data based on 28 years of lineup data. Jokic comes out as the 2nd best defensive rebounder of the past 28 years while being a good, but not great offensive rebounder. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-9t3iZnQkvDugPVzUJTntQZVwKevFVp-M5OTK3nJ2yA/edit

[Junoobi]

So how do people feel generally about the Jokic vs peak LeBron debate?

I'm not totally convinced that Jokic is as good or better offensively despite the obviously amazing box score production, and peak LeBron was obviously a significantly superior defensive player. There would have to be evidence that Jokic is clearly superior offensively, but I don't really see the evidence for that when looking at team-level data. For example, LeBron consistently being the anchor of some of the best playoff offenses we've ever seen. Don't think we've seen that out of Jokic, but then again, it is true...he doesn't have the team help that other all time greats have had.

I'm on the LeBron is better and not much of a debate to me side of things right now, but curious what other people think.

This is different than I felt before, when I was particularly high on Jokic, but I saw some of the same concerns people have had with Jokic against Minnesota creep up again, and I kind of came back down to "he's amazing, but not quite GOAT-level".

Jokic's sample size of playoff excellence isn't enough for it be considered GOAT-level.

[capfan33]

Question for the room - where do folks rank Jokic as a rebounder all-time? Preferably splitting O/D - very non-traditional offensive role for a big.

Jeremy Engelmann produced career rebounding data based on 28 years of lineup data. Jokic comes out as the 2nd best defensive rebounder of the past 28 years while being a good, but not great offensive rebounder. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-9t3iZnQkvDugPVzUJTntQZVwKevFVp-M5OTK3nJ2yA/edit

Adams goated as per usual.

[Special_Puppy]

So how do people feel generally about the Jokic vs peak LeBron debate?

I'm not totally convinced that Jokic is as good or better offensively despite the obviously amazing box score production, and peak LeBron was obviously a significantly superior defensive player. There would have to be evidence that Jokic is clearly superior offensively, but I don't really see the evidence for that when looking at team-level data. For example, LeBron consistently being the anchor of some of the best playoff offenses we've ever seen. Don't think we've seen that out of Jokic, but then again, it is true...he doesn't have the team help that other all time greats have had.

I'm on the LeBron is better and not much of a debate to me side of things right now, but curious what other people think.

This is different than I felt before, when I was particularly high on Jokic, but I saw some of the same concerns people have had with Jokic against Minnesota creep up again, and I kind of came back down to "he's amazing, but not quite GOAT-level".

Jokic's sample size of playoff excellence isn't enough for it be considered GOAT-level.

Yeah I have Jokic's peak a tier down from LeBron's. I'm probably a bit higher on Jokic after the 2024 playoffs as a whole given how well he performed despite his supporting cast doing pretty poorly.

[lessthanjake]

Question for the room - where do folks rank Jokic as a rebounder all-time? Preferably splitting O/D - very non-traditional offensive role for a big.

Jeremy Engelmann produced career rebounding data based on 28 years of lineup data. Jokic comes out as the 2nd best defensive rebounder of the past 28 years while being a good, but not great offensive rebounder. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-9t3iZnQkvDugPVzUJTntQZVwKevFVp-M5OTK3nJ2yA/edit

Yeah, I’ll just note that I think this data is the same as the “Lifetime RAPM’ on the NBArapm website (https://www.nbarapm.com/datasets/LifetimeRAPM), and that is easily sortable by other categories of impact as well. Jokic being a GOAT-level defensive rebounder is a big thing that people often miss when they assess him as a defender. It’s a big deal!

[AEnigma]

Most shocking trade in NBA history.

[itsxtray]

Wtf?? Is this real?

[ronnymac2]

If this is real, the behind-the-scenes has to be documentary-worthy. Why would DAL do this?!

[jalengreen]

Has anybody as good/young as Luka ever been traded without requesting it? Even in other leagues? Can't think of one

[sp6r=underrated]

Wow! I've been following the NBA for decades and this is genuinely the most shocking trade of my life.

[Peregrine01]

I think this trade only makes sense if Luka made it clear that he wanted to be a Laker next year.

[Dr Positivity]

Wow! I've been following the NBA for decades and this is genuinely the most shocking trade of my life.

I have fond memories of reading RGM the night Phoenix traded Marion for old Shaq out of nowhere but I think this has to top it.

[sp6r=underrated]

I think this trade only makes sense if Luka made it clear that he wanted to be a Laker next year.

Even then it doesn't make sense. Dallas is still better off keeping him and treating it like a Kawhi in Toronto situation as they are worse with AD.

[sp6r=underrated]

If this is real, the behind-the-scenes has to be documentary-worthy. Why would DAL do this?!

This is so insane. Artest attacking that fan was much more intelligible than this.

Dallas made a trade that will probably make them worse short-term, almost certainly worse long-term, definitely piss off their fans short-term while risking their fanbase long-term without bothering to see what other teams were willing to offer.

Nuts.

You can't even go with some weird marketability argument which explains some bad trades. Bigs are way less marketable than smalls and Davis has never had mass fan appeal.

[jalengreen]

Even if you want to trade Luka because you don’t trust him with the supermax due to his conditioning/work ethic (which is what we’re to believe is the reason based on the reports), I just don’t understand zeroing in on one trade target. And even if you solely wanted AD, you couldn’t get the Lakers to give up more than that?

Legitimately none of it makes sense to me lol. I’ve seen Mavs fans complaining that it’s their new ownership being cheap but you can be cheap while getting a better haul? Trading him is crazy but at least get the crazy return he should be worth?

Truly trying my hardest to find reason in it because the idea of a front office doing this is so unfathomable

[Dr Positivity]

I think I get them getting out of Luka but AD with plausibly 1-2 prime years left, idk. Could they have gotten like Franz or something. There has to be a 3rd star like Jimmy lined up giving them title aspirations this year to make the ultra win now addition Davis worth it.

[jalengreen]

Even if you want to trade Luka because you don’t trust him with the supermax due to his conditioning/work ethic (which is what we’re to believe is the reason based on the reports), I just don’t understand zeroing in on one trade target. And even if you solely wanted AD, you couldn’t get the Lakers to give up more than that?

Legitimately none of it makes sense to me lol. I’ve seen Mavs fans complaining that it’s their new ownership being cheap but you can be cheap while getting a better haul? Trading him is crazy but at least get the crazy return he should be worth?

Truly trying my hardest to find reason in it because the idea of a front office doing this is so unfathomable

NYT reported that they reached out to at least one other team trying to swap Luka for their star but got rejected. I am guessing that would be Giannis - fits the same two way big as AD but as a younger and better version of it. Bucks say no so they go for AD. Speculation but man lol