The LeBron James All-NBA (2nd) and Luka Doncic - 24-25 Thread

[dreamshake]

what y'all talking about? we be winning games without AD. How we not contenders? how bron not very good? we coulda def won a chip the way we was playing with ad back. luka better not choke

You're 4-1 without AD, against Memphis, Portland, Brooklyn, Washington and New York.

MEM is 32-16, and beat them. Portland's 20-29, and the 4th-worst D in the league. Brooklyn is 16-33, the 4th-worst offense in the league and 24th on D. Washington has 7 wins, and is the worst team in the league on both ends.

New York is the legit win, but overall, I wouldn't be crowing too hard about the LA record without AD, personally.

I feel like defense in general - but also AD's defense specifically - is so underrated. People are about to see how much heavy lifting he did on that end of the floor. Sure, LA will probably try to bring in a rim protector, but AD's defense is so much more than that - and doing it while still keeping the spacing on the offensive end is not replaceable.

[dreamshake]

There's no deal with Cleveland that doesn't send out major pieces. Just doesn't seem possible.

Why not? Package 3 of LeVert/Strus/Okoro/Niang to make salaries work. Cleveland has some draft picks to throw in. LeBron has a no-trade clause so its not like LA is shopping him on an open market.

Those combos of 3 don't work. Has to be LeVert/Strus + 2/3 of Okoro/Niang/Wade.

Who knows, maybe it happens, anything is possible.

[tsherkin]

I feel like defense in general - but also AD's defense specifically - is so underrated. People are about to see how much heavy lifting he did on that end of the floor. Sure, LA will probably try to bring in a rim protector, but AD's defense is so much more than that - and doing it while still keeping the spacing on the offensive end is not replaceable.

Healthy AD is legit one of the best players in the league. He isn't your takeover scorer or whatever, but he's a high-end offensive big and a great defender. He is an impact player. This is going to hurt, I think. I suspect this is more about post-Lebron. Getting Luka to negotiate an extension helps the franchise stay relevant as Lebron finishes fading, instead of dumping them back into a total rebuild. And that makes sense.

But contention this year doesn't look like it is on the menu.

[trickshot]

For perspective new Lakers are literally the team from tonight with Luka instead of Christie. Vanderbilt and DFS are huge reasons for the recent run and they kept them. It was never a lack of talent, it was balance. Just one defender stabilized so many lineups.

That's before factoring the countless scorers on midsize contracts you can move for bigs and defenders. If GM is savvy it's going to take less to be competitive than people realize. Even just one buyout big with no trade moves a needle. I'd still target two over both markets. They'll have great lobs but Hayes still isn't the guy you want behind Luka when he gets beat.

[eminence]

Why not? Package 3 of LeVert/Strus/Okoro/Niang to make salaries work. Cleveland has some draft picks to throw in. LeBron has a no-trade clause so its not like LA is shopping him on an open market.

Those combos of 3 don't work. Has to be LeVert/Strus + 2/3 of Okoro/Niang/Wade.

Who knows, maybe it happens, anything is possible.

I'd need to double check, but I'm pretty sure that deal puts Cleveland over the apron and is not possible.

[dreamshake]

Those combos of 3 don't work. Has to be LeVert/Strus + 2/3 of Okoro/Niang/Wade.

Who knows, maybe it happens, anything is possible.

I'd need to double check, but I'm pretty sure that deal puts Cleveland over the apron and is not possible.

I'm not a cap expert. I thought the point of the trade machine was to check for this? Seems like there are definitely ways to get it done without including Garland/Mitchell/Mobley/Allen though.

[DirtyDez]

This trade hinges on future FA for the Lakers. Lebron is kind of irrelevant actually.

[dreamshake]

For perspective new Lakers are literally the team from tonight with Luka instead of Christie. Vanderbilt and DFS are huge reasons for the recent run and they kept them. It was never a lack of talent, it was balance. Just one defender stabilized so many lineups.

That's before factoring the countless scorers on midsize contracts you can move for bigs and defenders. If GM is savvy it's going to take less to be competitive than people realize. Even just one buyout big with no trade moves a needle. I'd still target two over both markets. They'll have great lobs but Hayes still isn't the guy you want behind Luka when he gets beat.

If they continue to shoot 48% from 3 like they did against NY, then I very much believe in their title chances. I don't think that's likely however.

Their recent run is mostly against bad teams. Their best wins were against Boston and GSW and AD was the best player on the floor in both of those games.

Their defense is 100% going to get exposed in a playoff series against the elite teams IMO. DFS was a legit addition but Vanderbilt is just too much of an offensive liability in a high-level playoff series to give you more than a few minutes here and there. We've seen this play out before.

[eminence]

I'd need to double check, but I'm pretty sure that deal puts Cleveland over the apron and is not possible.

I'm not a cap expert. I thought the point of the trade machine was to check for this? Seems like there are definitely ways to get it done without including Garland/Mitchell/Mobley/Allen though.

I agree there are cap legal way to make "pile of junk" for LeBron work, just pointing out that those particular piles don't work, and no pile really has any incentive to LA past Cleveland owing them a favor in the future.

[trickshot]

For perspective new Lakers are literally the team from tonight with Luka instead of Christie. Vanderbilt and DFS are huge reasons for the recent run and they kept them. It was never a lack of talent, it was balance. Just one defender stabilized so many lineups.

That's before factoring the countless scorers on midsize contracts you can move for bigs and defenders. If GM is savvy it's going to take less to be competitive than people realize. Even just one buyout big with no trade moves a needle. I'd still target two over both markets. They'll have great lobs but Hayes still isn't the guy you want behind Luka when he gets beat.

If they continue to shoot 48% from 3 like they did against NY, then I very much believe in their title chances. I don't think that's likely however.

Their recent run is mostly against bad teams. Their best wins were against Boston and GSW and AD was the best player on the floor in both of those games.

Their defense is 100% going to get exposed in a playoff series against the elite teams IMO. DFS was a legit addition but Vanderbilt is just too much of an offensive liability in a high-level playoff series to give you more than a few minutes here and there. We've seen this play out before.

Look, I'm not about to downplay AD's impact in the run, never, but he isn't the one plugging that perimeter defense the last two weeks. He doesn't defend consistent enough to be the ONLY reason.

There's also way more to the Vanderbilt playoffs thing than that. Vanderbilt getting schemed out is a bit exaggerated. He got schemed out against Denver because he allowed the best player in the world, Jokic to rest on defense. Vanderbilt's payoff is never going to be worth the trade off in that matchup but it was actually great in the first two rounds. An offensive savant Curry resting on Vanderbilt wasn't even enough to override his net impact.

[dreamshake]

I agree there are cap legal way to make "pile of junk" for LeBron work, just pointing out that those particular piles don't work, and no pile really has any incentive to LA past Cleveland owing them a favor in the future.

It wouldn't be about Cleveland owing them in the future. It would be about:

1. Honoring LeBron's wishes out of respect for him giving them 7 years of his career and a title. I think Jeanie & Pelinka would love to see an amicable end to his time there. Their first choice is probably him staying and retiring there but if that's no longer what he wants . . .

2. Getting assets for the future. The "pile of junk" includes some decent role players. Cleveland has picks they can include. Could even try to involve more teams if LA would rather have players than draft assets.

Again LeBron has all the leverage. If he doesn't want to stay with the Lakers, is it really better to keep him there against his will, burn your relationship, and get nothing when he leaves/retires? Why not get a couple players/picks and move on?

That said, I think the likeliest scenario is that he stays. But if he did want out, its in LA's best interest to facilitate it IMO.

[AEnigma]

I'd need to double check, but I'm pretty sure that deal puts Cleveland over the apron and is not possible.

I'm not a cap expert. I thought the point of the trade machine was to check for this? Seems like there are definitely ways to get it done without including Garland/Mitchell/Mobley/Allen though.

ESPN’s trade machine is grossly outdated. Use the ones on FanSpo/Spotrac, although no promises they are able to perfectly calculate the apron intricacies either (Wade instead of Tyson works according to both, but that extra $2 million could definitely sting).

[thebigbird]

Man I’m still pissed. This sucks. Team was looking great and then Rob snakes LeBron once again. I’ll never understand why LeBron has remained so loyal to an organization that has done the opposite to him.

[Mos_Heat]

Haynes said Lebron intends to remain a Laker past deadline

[Mos_Heat]

I'd need to double check, but I'm pretty sure that deal puts Cleveland over the apron and is not possible.

I'm not a cap expert. I thought the point of the trade machine was to check for this? Seems like there are definitely ways to get it done without including Garland/Mitchell/Mobley/Allen though.

Spotrac's trade machine is the best one

[Ian Scuffling]

For perspective new Lakers are literally the team from tonight with Luka instead of Christie. Vanderbilt and DFS are huge reasons for the recent run and they kept them. It was never a lack of talent, it was balance. Just one defender stabilized so many lineups.

That's before factoring the countless scorers on midsize contracts you can move for bigs and defenders. If GM is savvy it's going to take less to be competitive than people realize. Even just one buyout big with no trade moves a needle. I'd still target two over both markets. They'll have great lobs but Hayes still isn't the guy you want behind Luka when he gets beat.

If they continue to shoot 48% from 3 like they did against NY, then I very much believe in their title chances. I don't think that's likely however.

Their recent run is mostly against bad teams. Their best wins were against Boston and GSW and AD was the best player on the floor in both of those games.

Their defense is 100% going to get exposed in a playoff series against the elite teams IMO. DFS was a legit addition but Vanderbilt is just too much of an offensive liability in a high-level playoff series to give you more than a few minutes here and there. We've seen this play out before.

My only quibble is this, "Their best wins were against Boston and GSW"? Just last night they beat a very good NY team in NY without AD. But, do agree with everything else.

[eminence]

I agree there are cap legal way to make "pile of junk" for LeBron work, just pointing out that those particular piles don't work, and no pile really has any incentive to LA past Cleveland owing them a favor in the future.

It wouldn't be about Cleveland owing them in the future. It would be about:

1. Honoring LeBron's wishes out of respect for him giving them 7 years of his career and a title. I think Jeanie & Pelinka would love to see an amicable end to his time there. Their first choice is probably him staying and retiring there but if that's no longer what he wants . . .

2. Getting assets for the future. The "pile of junk" includes some decent role players. Cleveland has picks they can include. Could even try to involve more teams if LA would rather have players than draft assets.

Again LeBron has all the leverage. If he doesn't want to stay with the Lakers, is it really better to keep him there against his will, burn your relationship, and get nothing when he leaves/retires? Why not get a couple players/picks and move on?

That said, I think the likeliest scenario is that he stays. But if he did want out, its in LA's best interest to facilitate it IMO.

Disagreed on who has the leverage. The Lakers brand is worth more to LeBron than Brons brand is to LA. They'd replace him with Luka in an instant if he retired tomorrow.

[dreamshake]

For perspective new Lakers are literally the team from tonight with Luka instead of Christie. Vanderbilt and DFS are huge reasons for the recent run and they kept them. It was never a lack of talent, it was balance. Just one defender stabilized so many lineups.

That's before factoring the countless scorers on midsize contracts you can move for bigs and defenders. If GM is savvy it's going to take less to be competitive than people realize. Even just one buyout big with no trade moves a needle. I'd still target two over both markets. They'll have great lobs but Hayes still isn't the guy you want behind Luka when he gets beat.

If they continue to shoot 48% from 3 like they did against NY, then I very much believe in their title chances. I don't think that's likely however.

Their recent run is mostly against bad teams. Their best wins were against Boston and GSW and AD was the best player on the floor in both of those games.

Their defense is 100% going to get exposed in a playoff series against the elite teams IMO. DFS was a legit addition but Vanderbilt is just too much of an offensive liability in a high-level playoff series to give you more than a few minutes here and there. We've seen this play out before.

My only quibble is this, "Their best wins were against Boston and GSW"? Just last night they beat a very good NY team in NY without AD. But, do agree with everything else.

Sure, I guess I was excluding that one since I addressed it in the first comment. It's certainly a good win and better than the GSW one, but was mostly just a hot shooting night. Not something that can lend much predictive value to playoff success.

[trickshot]

If they continue to shoot 48% from 3 like they did against NY, then I very much believe in their title chances. I don't think that's likely however.

Their recent run is mostly against bad teams. Their best wins were against Boston and GSW and AD was the best player on the floor in both of those games.

Their defense is 100% going to get exposed in a playoff series against the elite teams IMO. DFS was a legit addition but Vanderbilt is just too much of an offensive liability in a high-level playoff series to give you more than a few minutes here and there. We've seen this play out before.

My only quibble is this, "Their best wins were against Boston and GSW"? Just last night they beat a very good NY team in NY without AD. But, do agree with everything else.

Sure, I guess I was excluding that one since I addressed it in the first comment. It's certainly a good win and better than the GSW one, but was mostly just a hot shooting night. Not something that can lend much predictive value to playoff success.

because my original premise was talking about being competitive while yours was talking about straight up playoff success and title contenders

[1993Playoffs]

Wow , wow , wow