[SHAMS] De'Aaron Fox traded to Spurs, Zach Lavine to Kings

[PlatinumState]

The fact that the Spurs didn't have to give up any of the Hawks picks or Devin Vassell is quite surprising. The Bulls got basically nothing back for Zach Lavine. Are star level players just not as valuable as they used to be?

They got their first round pick back which was top 10 protected by the Spurs

[brackdan70]

Feels light for Sacramento.

- LaVine is considered bad value on his contract.
- 2025 first will likely not convert and become two second rounders.
- 2027 spurs pick will likely not be very good with Wemby, Fox and young supporting cast almost certainly being a playoff roster
- that leaves the 2031 Minnesota pick which is more of a wild card because it's so far into the future.
- and then a bunch of second rounders

Great deal for the spurs, risky for Sacramento imo.

It’s almost like they didn’t know about the protections on that Charlotte pick lol. I agree, 3 firsts and LaVine is a decent haul, but one of the firsts needed to be better imo. That’s a bunch of seconds though, and those can be useful, but still doesn’t quite meet the value I would have expected.

[Rust_Cohle]

What is the verdict on Fox as a player so far?

Is he that good of a player to allocate about 30% of the salary cap on? Are Spurs owners willing to pay luxury tax?

The Spurs shouldn't have traded for Fox. He isn't a very good player. The Kings looked better without him.

Looks like he regressed this year, but obviously still a big talent based on previous seasons. Maybe he will look better again with the Spurs, but yeah I also wonder about the fit.

He was never a great outside shooter, and the Spurs are already a sub par 3pt-shooting team.

Fox was an all star in 2023, currently top 15 in scoring and top 20 on assists. Decent defender. Not a great 3 point shooter but our biggest issue is scoring in general and Fox cleans that up very nicely. Signing more 3 point shooters which is needed won’t be an issue at all. Defensively spurs are top 7 in the league already. Considering how little they had to give up for Fox it is hard not to be thrilled. What’s even better is they still have prior to summer 2026 to decide to extend fox so they can see how he fits. Fox as a second option should be great, more so than as a first option. He’s capable of 50+ points multiple times in his wheel house and taking the scoring load off an even improving wemby is exactly what we need. Just a superb trade considering how little SA shockingly bad to give up.

For someone who is beyond lethal at pick and rolls (with wemby that should be amazing), crazy quick and this season alone had 109 points in 2 games which is something we haven’t seen since Wilt (!!).

Of course he has his flaws but him moving down to a second option instead of face of a franchise should only help too.

[Haldi]

Kings become Bulls west lmao.

Who plays point for the kings? Monk?

Monk
Lavine
Derozan
Murray
Sabonis

???

Derozan I’m guessing will be point.

They might as well just complete the Bulls west and trade Sabonis for Vuc and Ball lol.

[UcanUwill]

Spurs were able to keep ALL Castle, K Johnson, and Vassle?!

Keldon Johnson can go, but yeah, overall, amazing trade for SAS.

[Swift21]

I thought the Kings would atleast try to get Castle back.

[Pointgod]

Just an awful, awful trade for the Kings.

First thing when they call I demand Castle. Untouchable? Fine, Fox stays until the summer. There will be more teams in the summer capable financially of making a trade work, there will be teams disappointed with their postseason trying to make a change. Where are you rushing ffs?

Then you don't get Sochan at least, Keldon at least? You want loser Lavine? You don't get any of the ATL picks?

Really bad IMO. You gift them a really good player for no players or picks of consequence in return AND leave them with a ton of assets to pair Fox and Wemby with another star when he becomes available. Have to do it every time.

Bro the Kings couldn’t even get Vassell or Tre Jones in the deal! I can’t imagine the Spurs walking away because of Devin Vassell.

[tsherkin]

Fox was an all star in 2023, top 15 in scoring and top 20 on assists.

Yes, but.

Almost everything about his scoring that season (which is what drove his AS selection) was a significant outlier.

He's been a 25+ ppg guy mostly since 2021. 2025 GP is obviously so far, as the season isn't done.

Code: Select all

21: 58 GP, 25.2 ppg, 47.7% FG, 32.2% 3P, 53.9% 2FG, .376 FTr, .288 3PAr, 99 TS+, 42.6% FG from 3-10, 76.1% from 0-3
22: 59 GP, 23.2 ppg, 47.3% FG, 29,7% 3P, 52.4% 2FG, .319 FTr, .228 3PAr, 97 TS+, 46.6% FG from 3-10, 71.4% from 0-3
23: 73 GP, 25.0 ppg, 51.2% FG, 32.4% 3P, 58.4% 2FG, .331 FTr, .276 3PAr, 103 TS+, 56.9% FG from 3-10, 80.3% from 0-3
24: 74 GP, 26.6 ppg, 46.5% FG, 36.9% 3P, 52.2% 2FG, .273 FTr. .374 3PAr, 98 TS+, 53.4% FG from 3-10, 72.0% from 0-3
25: 45 GP, 25.0 ppg, 46.9% FG, 32.2% 3P, 53.9% 2FG, .279 FTr, .279 3PAr, 99 TS+, 53.9% FG from 3-10, 71.8% from 0-3


So you can see the outlier finishing in 2023 from 0-3 feet and from 3-10 feet. You can see the peak draw rate. You can see how steady his raw FG% has been outside of that season, and likewise his relative efficiency.

I don't know that 2023 is what we should be looking at with Fox to determine who he is as a player. He should still be good for the Spurs offense, no doubt, but likely not in that specific form. Looking to him for volume scoring probably isn't the thing to do.

[cgf]

Spurs could be dangerous in the West now. Very curious what Chicago comes away with after everyone yelled at them last year for not giving Zach away.

[lethalizer]

Weirdly, I like this a lot more for the Kings than I do for the Spurs.

Fox when he goes guns ablazing is a good player, but his inconsistency and poor three point shooting on huge volume will always have a limit on his ceiling.

Also starting with 2027 Fox will be on a very huge contract, whereas Lavine will be a FA around then. I don't think committing 300 million+ for a player like Fox will be a recipe for success during his 30+ age years.

Kings kinda hit their peak anyway, alongside Monk I think Lavine will have the ability to continue producing efficient offense. The only problem is DDR as always. I think it was telling that Zach immediately started to perform better once they were seperated. Kings will have to find a solution to get results from both of them in a positive way.

If they can stagger those two enough, that can be a fun team.

As for the Spurs, I kinda expected better from them, though I do get that at that price and Fox basically choosing them, this was hard to pass up.

If Fox and Wemby are your "big duo", than you'll need shooting from basically everyone else, and Spurs.. don't really have that currently. The hope is probably guys like Devin and Keldon improving their percentages because of the extra attention Fox will require on D.

Not sure I buy it, but we'll see.

The Bulls side is hilarious because that franchise refuses to tank. If they are actually committing to it this time, I'd actually say this is a good move for them cause getting their pick back also unlocks their pick for next season. So the ability to tank for 1.5 seasons is actually worth dumping Zach if they also plan on actually tanking for the 2026 season.

Just dump Vuc for a couple of seconds or so, play the young guys as much as you can and try to get some quality pieces via these two drafts.

[WestGOAT]

Fox was an all star in 2023, top 15 in scoring and top 20 on assists.

Yes, but.

Almost everything about his scoring that season (which is what drove his AS selection) was a significant outlier.

He's been a 25+ ppg guy mostly since 2021. 2025 GP is obviously so far, as the season isn't done.

Code: Select all

21: 58 GP, 25.2 ppg, 47.7% FG, 32.2% 3P, 53.9% 2FG, .376 FTr, .288 3PAr, 99 TS+, 42.6% FG from 3-10, 76.1% from 0-3
22: 59 GP, 23.2 ppg, 47.3% FG, 29,7% 3P, 52.4% 2FG, .319 FTr, .228 3PAr, 97 TS+, 46.6% FG from 3-10, 71.4% from 0-3
23: 73 GP, 25.0 ppg, 51.2% FG, 32.4% 3P, 58.4% 2FG, .331 FTr, .276 3PAr, 103 TS+, 56.9% FG from 3-10, 80.3% from 0-3
24: 74 GP, 26.6 ppg, 46.5% FG, 36.9% 3P, 52.2% 2FG, .273 FTr. .374 3PAr, 98 TS+, 53.4% FG from 3-10, 72.0% from 0-3
25: 45 GP, 25.0 ppg, 46.9% FG, 32.2% 3P, 53.9% 2FG, .279 FTr, .279 3PAr, 99 TS+, 53.9% FG from 3-10, 71.8% from 0-3


So you can see the outlier finishing in 2023 from 0-3 feet and from 3-10 feet. You can see the peak draw rate. You can see how steady his raw FG% has been outside of that season, and likewise his relative efficiency.

I don't know that 2023 is what we should be looking at with Fox to determine who he is as a player. He should still be good for the Spurs offense, no doubt, but likely not in that specific form. Looking to him for volume scoring probably isn't the thing to do.

What did the Spurs then trade him for? That's what he does, handle the ball and get shots up. Maybe his playmaking was overshadowed by Sabonis, but it won't be much more on display in SA with Wemby looking like a pretty decent passing big himself.

[tsherkin]

What did the Spurs then trade him for? That's what he does, handle the ball and get shots up. Maybe his playmaking was overshadowed by Sabonis, but it won't be much more on display in SA with Wemby looking like a pretty decent passing big himself.

I don't follow the question. He's likely going to come in taking 15-17 FGA/g and still scoring in the low 20s. He just isn't needed for 25+ ppg. He should ease pressure on Chris Paul, create better continuity of quality offense management across the game even when Paul is out, and he adds extra scoring punch. He's not going to be a world-beater, but it should materially improve the SAS offense.

[tcheco]

Fox was an all star in 2023, top 15 in scoring and top 20 on assists.

Yes, but.

Almost everything about his scoring that season (which is what drove his AS selection) was a significant outlier.

He's been a 25+ ppg guy mostly since 2021. 2025 GP is obviously so far, as the season isn't done.

Code: Select all

21: 58 GP, 25.2 ppg, 47.7% FG, 32.2% 3P, 53.9% 2FG, .376 FTr, .288 3PAr, 99 TS+, 42.6% FG from 3-10, 76.1% from 0-3
22: 59 GP, 23.2 ppg, 47.3% FG, 29,7% 3P, 52.4% 2FG, .319 FTr, .228 3PAr, 97 TS+, 46.6% FG from 3-10, 71.4% from 0-3
23: 73 GP, 25.0 ppg, 51.2% FG, 32.4% 3P, 58.4% 2FG, .331 FTr, .276 3PAr, 103 TS+, 56.9% FG from 3-10, 80.3% from 0-3
24: 74 GP, 26.6 ppg, 46.5% FG, 36.9% 3P, 52.2% 2FG, .273 FTr. .374 3PAr, 98 TS+, 53.4% FG from 3-10, 72.0% from 0-3
25: 45 GP, 25.0 ppg, 46.9% FG, 32.2% 3P, 53.9% 2FG, .279 FTr, .279 3PAr, 99 TS+, 53.9% FG from 3-10, 71.8% from 0-3


So you can see the outlier finishing in 2023 from 0-3 feet and from 3-10 feet. You can see the peak draw rate. You can see how steady his raw FG% has been outside of that season, and likewise his relative efficiency.

I don't know that 2023 is what we should be looking at with Fox to determine who he is as a player. He should still be good for the Spurs offense, no doubt, but likely not in that specific form. Looking to him for volume scoring probably isn't the thing to do.

What did the Spurs then trade him for? That's what he does, handle the ball and get shots up. Maybe his playmaking was overshadowed by Sabonis, but it won't be much more on display in SA with Wemby looking like a pretty decent passing big himself.

Don't think Fox was acquired to carry the offense for the Spurs honestly, just to do his thing, which is way better than CP3 or Tre Jones scoring wise. Don't see Spurs putting him in a position to force shots. Adding a 25ppg scorer without losing any relevant player is incredible by the Spurs, but I do worry about Fox next contract

[tsherkin]

Don't think Fox was acquired to carry the offense for the Spurs honestly, just to do his thing, which is way better than CP3 or Tre Jones scoring wise. Don't see Spurs putting him in a position to force shots. Adding a 25ppg scorer without losing any relevant player is incredible by the Spurs, but I do worry about Fox next contract

Exactly. They are already hovering around an average offense. With the extra scoring talent, even if he isn't going all-out, it should improve even more and give them some competitive advantage. He doesn't even need to match his volume from Sacramento, and they've got some extra pressure release on Wemby and Paul, which is highly advantageous.

[Rust_Cohle]

Fox was an all star in 2023, top 15 in scoring and top 20 on assists.

Yes, but.

Almost everything about his scoring that season (which is what drove his AS selection) was a significant outlier.

He's been a 25+ ppg guy mostly since 2021. 2025 GP is obviously so far, as the season isn't done.

Code: Select all

21: 58 GP, 25.2 ppg, 47.7% FG, 32.2% 3P, 53.9% 2FG, .376 FTr, .288 3PAr, 99 TS+, 42.6% FG from 3-10, 76.1% from 0-3
22: 59 GP, 23.2 ppg, 47.3% FG, 29,7% 3P, 52.4% 2FG, .319 FTr, .228 3PAr, 97 TS+, 46.6% FG from 3-10, 71.4% from 0-3
23: 73 GP, 25.0 ppg, 51.2% FG, 32.4% 3P, 58.4% 2FG, .331 FTr, .276 3PAr, 103 TS+, 56.9% FG from 3-10, 80.3% from 0-3
24: 74 GP, 26.6 ppg, 46.5% FG, 36.9% 3P, 52.2% 2FG, .273 FTr. .374 3PAr, 98 TS+, 53.4% FG from 3-10, 72.0% from 0-3
25: 45 GP, 25.0 ppg, 46.9% FG, 32.2% 3P, 53.9% 2FG, .279 FTr, .279 3PAr, 99 TS+, 53.9% FG from 3-10, 71.8% from 0-3


So you can see the outlier finishing in 2023 from 0-3 feet and from 3-10 feet. You can see the peak draw rate. You can see how steady his raw FG% has been outside of that season, and likewise his relative efficiency.

I don't know that 2023 is what we should be looking at with Fox to determine who he is as a player. He should still be good for the Spurs offense, no doubt, but likely not in that specific form. Looking to him for volume scoring probably isn't the thing to do.

Nice insight!

[tsherkin]

Nice insight!

I'm a fan of the acquisition. I just think we should look at his seasons around 2023, rather than that season in particular, for what his likely level of impact will be.

He's mostly been like a +1.5 O-EPM type guy... which would immediately have him be top-3 on the San Antonio roster. And if he lowers his volume a little and maybe improves his efficiency (perhaps with more passing support?), then he could be very helpful to their O.

EDIT: Last year, he was still a +2.9 O-EPM guy, for what it's worth. With passing support, reduced volume and the draw on Wemby, it's quite possible that he will look pretty good.

[LockoutSeason]

Shouldn’t the Kings have gotten CP3? Who’s running PG for Sac? And CP3 and Fox don’t fit together.

[OxAndFox]

Shouldn’t the Kings have gotten CP3? Who’s running PG for Sac? And CP3 and Fox don’t fit together.

You do realise Malik means King in Arabic.

[OxAndFox]

This feels like a big win for the Spurs but I think this is just part 1 of the equation. They will add one more piece to form a big 3 of Wemby, Fox, ????. Once they get that missing piece, could compete for a title every year for the next decade.

They need to push it all in relatively quickly. They have the contracts to match salary and the picks to facilitate a trade for a star easily, but could also go for a superstar.

If Memphis flame out in the 1st round they might tear it down and trade JA, JJJ, Bane.
So, Castle, Sochan, Johnson/'25 Hawks 1st (currently #10), '25 Spurs 1st (currently #11), '26 Atlanta 1st Swap, '27 Atlanta 1st, for JJJ/Clarke

Spurs would still have, without signing anyone else:
Fox/CP3 (surely he goes on again)
Vassel/Branham
Champagnie/
JJJ/Clarke/Barnes
Wemby/Bassey

[OxAndFox]

Nice insight!

I'm a fan of the acquisition. I just think we should look at his seasons around 2023, rather than that season in particular, for what his likely level of impact will be.

He's mostly been like a +1.5 O-EPM type guy... which would immediately have him be top-3 on the San Antonio roster. And if he lowers his volume a little and maybe improves his efficiency (perhaps with more passing support?), then he could be very helpful to their O.

EDIT: Last year, he was still a +2.9 O-EPM guy, for what it's worth. With passing support, reduced volume and the draw on Wemby, it's quite possible that he will look pretty good.

I would agree here. I also think the main draw with adding Fox to Wemby is how Fox produced in the POs. He showed that his game stands up and elevates, even though his shooting took a hit after fracturing his finger. And that in itself has been an issue in recent years.
But if the Spurs make it back to the POs, Wemby won't need to do all the heavy lifting himself and that is going to be huge.