NYK is last in the league at defensive 3pt %

[KnixinSix]

We have always given up either a high volume of threes relative to our pace, a lot of makes or a high percentage. The last time Mitch was healthy we were 23rd in the league in opponents 3 point makes per game. Our scheme gives up threes, whether it's attempts or makes or percentage, we're at the bottom of the league in 1 of those 3 things fairly consistently because our scheme leads to open threes.


Mitch played 72 games the year we were 23rd in opponent makes, and 27th in opponents attempts. You play against Thibs, you're going to get clean looks.

Look at the numbers post OG when either Mitch or IHart were on the floor. Drastically different and not a tiny sample size either. Thibs D needs enough elite wing defense combined with an elite defensive 5 in the middle. When he has that the D is phenomenal .

Trouble is we don't have iHart anymore. So when Mitch comes back he'll likely back up KAT for 20 minutes. Not confident Mitch will play more than that, or play with KAT much. So will having that elite defensive 5 for 20 minutes, and KAT the rest of the time, be enough? It will help, but how much? And it seems unlikely Thibs would play one way with KAT, ie switching more, and drop coverage only during Mitch's minutes.

It's true though, the defense was really good last year. I recall the guy who makes coaching videos, called Awful Coaching or something like that? Last year he had videos showing how bad certain coaches defensive systems were, but when he did the Knicks he was full of praise when breaking down the Knicks' schemes and rotations, especially in January 2024.

Mitch on floor for even 20-24 minutes will make a substantial difference. And Thibs already hinted KAT will play some 4.

[Ray Williams]

Look at the numbers post OG when either Mitch or IHart were on the floor. Drastically different and not a tiny sample size either. Thibs D needs enough elite wing defense combined with an elite defensive 5 in the middle. When he has that the D is phenomenal .

Trouble is we don't have iHart anymore. So when Mitch comes back he'll likely back up KAT for 20 minutes. Not confident Mitch will play more than that, or play with KAT much. So will having that elite defensive 5 for 20 minutes, and KAT the rest of the time, be enough? It will help, but how much? And it seems unlikely Thibs would play one way with KAT, ie switching more, and drop coverage only during Mitch's minutes.

It's true though, the defense was really good last year. I recall the guy who makes coaching videos, called Awful Coaching or something like that? Last year he had videos showing how bad certain coaches defensive systems were, but when he did the Knicks he was full of praise when breaking down the Knicks' schemes and rotations, especially in January 2024.

Mitch on floor for even 20-24 minutes will make a substantial difference. And Thibs already hinted KAT will play some 4.

As long as games are close Mitch can close out games with KAT, don’t need them out there together for extended minutes, limit Mitch’s time so he’s available when it matters most, and save those timeouts so we can sub offense and defensive lineups.
What Mitch needs to be doing is shooting thousands of free throws while he’s out.

[Iron Mantis]

What other coaches in this league can only coach players of an exact archetype so specific that it's become a saying: "oh he's not a coach xxxx type of player"?

Can you imagine folks saying Spo "needs a very specific combination of an elite rim protector and 3 elite defensive wings in the starting lineup to not have the worst 3pt defense in the league".

Thibs has an outdated, gimmick system. He's Bizarro world D'antoni.

He needs to adapt to his personnel. Period.

[Wildcat]

I thought Knicks p-defense was going to be top of the league,after the Bridges trade. I didn't think it's be worse.

[KnixinSix]

I thought Knicks p-defense was going to be top of the league,after the Bridges trade. I didn't think it's be worse.

We are coming into a period far enough into the season where Thibs has every right to be questioned. The team has had close to 50 games now to acclimate to his system.

Having the worst 3% when you have multiple elite level perimeter defenders in OG,Bridges, HArt, and McBride is unacceptable. When you have FOUR guys of this caliber defensively in guarding the perimeter and what is supposedly a defensive minded HC you should be in the top 10 at minimum vs the 3.

The only way I see this as being 'slightly' tolerable is if they are claiming they need the elite defensive 5 so that they don't sag in too deep or overcommit to protecting the paint so much.

Even that is a dubious assessment of the situation at best and perhaps too lenient an assessment IMO bc the switching defense should simply be so much better with the players we have.

IN any event, lets see how much better it gets when Mitch (and/or a trade) brings us more rim protection and the others guys need to sag in less to protect the paint and can play the 3 ball more straight up.

FYI- The Memphis game we were all over the 3 ball shooters (for the most part) I was hoping we would see that more often vs everyone else.

[Wildcat]

I thought Knicks p-defense was going to be top of the league,after the Bridges trade. I didn't think it's be worse.

We are coming into a period far enough into the season where Thibs has every right to be questioned. The team has had close to 50 games now to acclimate to his system.

Having the worst 3% when you have multiple elite level perimeter defenders in OG,Bridges, HArt, and McBride is unacceptable. When you have FOUR guys of this caliber defensively in guarding the perimeter and what is supposedly a defensive minded HC you should be in the top 10 at minimum vs the 3.

The only way I see this as being 'slightly' tolerable is if they are claiming they need the elite defensive 5 so that they don't sag in too deep or overcommit to protecting the paint so much.

Even that is a dubious assessment of the situation at best and perhaps too lenient an assessment IMO bc the switching defense should simply be so much better with the players we have.

IN any event, lets see how much better it gets when Mitch (and/or a trade) brings us more rim protection and the others guys need to sag in less to protect the paint and can play the 3 ball more straight up.

FYI- The Memphis game we were all over the 3 ball shooters (for the most part) I was hoping we would see that more often vs everyone else.

Very much agreed. This has been a Thibs scheme for quite some time. Last year they guarded that line basically the same way. I don't like it.

[knicks94]

What other coaches in this league can only coach players of an exact archetype so specific that it's become a saying: "oh he's not a coach xxxx type of player"?

Can you imagine folks saying Spo "needs a very specific combination of an elite rim protector and 3 elite defensive wings in the starting lineup to not have the worst 3pt defense in the league".

Thibs has an outdated, gimmick system. He's Bizarro world D'antoni.

He needs to adapt to his personnel. Period.

Mike D'antoni?

[drekwins]

I thought Knicks p-defense was going to be top of the league,after the Bridges trade. I didn't think it's be worse.

While I agree that the Knicks have to improve, this really isn't a fair take. It takes time to implement new players into a scheme and the Knicks are missing BOTH of last years starting centers. We are a completely different team. Not to mention, no one thought that we would be defensive juggernaut with KAT at the center position. No one.

I think that the solution is 4-fold (other than blowing up the roster):
1) Play McBride more alongside Brunson/allow McBride to guard the ball more
2) Get Mitch healthy or trade him for a defensive big
3) Schematic changes - Emphasize running guys off the 3pt line
4) Stop overplaying the starters in blowouts so that they have more energy to defend.

Obviously, each of these 4 measures are oversimplified. However, you all get the point.

The next 15 games is going to make-or-break this team.

[Montmorencie]

This is OK. Its the first thing that gets corrected in the playoffs. Even by itself, we don't have to worry about it, the ten day contract will just start bricking everything.

[KnixinSix]

I thought Knicks p-defense was going to be top of the league,after the Bridges trade. I didn't think it's be worse.

While I agree that the Knicks have to improve, this really isn't a fair take. It takes time to implement new players into a scheme and the Knicks are missing BOTH of last years starting centers. We are a completely different team. Not to mention, no one thought that we would be defensive juggernaut with KAT at the center position. No one.

I think that the solution is 4-fold (other than blowing up the roster):
1) Play McBride more alongside Brunson/allow McBride to guard the ball more
2) Get Mitch healthy or trade him for a defensive big
3) Schematic changes - Emphasize running guys off the 3pt line
4) Stop overplaying the starters in blowouts so that they have more energy to defend.

Obviously, each of these 4 measures are oversimplified. However, you all get the point.

The next 15 games is going to make-or-break this team.

Minny was near top of league defensively last year with KAT. This team when Mitch returns arguably has better overall talent defensively than they did. Mitch Bridges OG McBride Hart.....that is 5 elite defenders

[Wildcat]

I thought Knicks p-defense was going to be top of the league,after the Bridges trade. I didn't think it's be worse.

While I agree that the Knicks have to improve, this really isn't a fair take. It takes time to implement new players into a scheme and the Knicks are missing BOTH of last years starting centers. We are a completely different team. Not to mention, no one thought that we would be defensive juggernaut with KAT at the center position. No one.

I think that the solution is 4-fold (other than blowing up the roster):
1) Play McBride more alongside Brunson/allow McBride to guard the ball more
2) Get Mitch healthy or trade him for a defensive big
3) Schematic changes - Emphasize running guys off the 3pt line
4) Stop overplaying the starters in blowouts so that they have more energy to defend.

Obviously, each of these 4 measures are oversimplified. However, you all get the point.

The next 15 games is going to make-or-break this team.

Mitch isn't starting, so how much of a difference are we really going to see with a healthy Mitch?

I thought with better perimeter players, those open 3's the Knicks were giving up last season (and they were amongst the bottom half of teams giving up 3's last season), that would change. 3 point shooting has -- by assumption -- improved across the board in the league.

Seems like an adaptability issue, honestly. Only looks good when the other team is bricking. This is a Thibs scheme and I don't think he's going to change that ever (especially not mid-season).

[kNicksGmen]

minus 1.9 net rating in 4th quarters also. all other quarters are strongly positive.

[KnixinSix]

I thought Knicks p-defense was going to be top of the league,after the Bridges trade. I didn't think it's be worse.

While I agree that the Knicks have to improve, this really isn't a fair take. It takes time to implement new players into a scheme and the Knicks are missing BOTH of last years starting centers. We are a completely different team. Not to mention, no one thought that we would be defensive juggernaut with KAT at the center position. No one.

I think that the solution is 4-fold (other than blowing up the roster):
1) Play McBride more alongside Brunson/allow McBride to guard the ball more
2) Get Mitch healthy or trade him for a defensive big
3) Schematic changes - Emphasize running guys off the 3pt line
4) Stop overplaying the starters in blowouts so that they have more energy to defend.

Obviously, each of these 4 measures are oversimplified. However, you all get the point.

The next 15 games is going to make-or-break this team.

Mitch isn't starting, so how much of a difference are we really going to see with a healthy Mitch?

I thought with better perimeter players, those open 3's the Knicks were giving up last season (and they were amongst the bottom half of teams giving up 3's last season), that would change. 3 point shooting has -- by assumption -- improved across the board in the league.

Seems like an adaptability issue, honestly. Only looks good when the other team is bricking. This is a Thibs scheme and I don't think he's going to change that ever (especially not mid-season).

If he is healthy likely quite a bit. You know , he is one of thib's guys , so he's gonna get played. Him playing in the middle makes a big difference for a Thibodeau defense. It just does. Thibodeau almost never went small when he had elite defensive 5s. He clearly favors that.

[Wildcat]

While I agree that the Knicks have to improve, this really isn't a fair take. It takes time to implement new players into a scheme and the Knicks are missing BOTH of last years starting centers. We are a completely different team. Not to mention, no one thought that we would be defensive juggernaut with KAT at the center position. No one.

I think that the solution is 4-fold (other than blowing up the roster):
1) Play McBride more alongside Brunson/allow McBride to guard the ball more
2) Get Mitch healthy or trade him for a defensive big
3) Schematic changes - Emphasize running guys off the 3pt line
4) Stop overplaying the starters in blowouts so that they have more energy to defend.

Obviously, each of these 4 measures are oversimplified. However, you all get the point.

The next 15 games is going to make-or-break this team.

Mitch isn't starting, so how much of a difference are we really going to see with a healthy Mitch?

I thought with better perimeter players, those open 3's the Knicks were giving up last season (and they were amongst the bottom half of teams giving up 3's last season), that would change. 3 point shooting has -- by assumption -- improved across the board in the league.

Seems like an adaptability issue, honestly. Only looks good when the other team is bricking. This is a Thibs scheme and I don't think he's going to change that ever (especially not mid-season).

If he is healthy likely quite a bit. You know , he is one of thib's guys , so he's gonna get played. Him playing in the middle makes a big difference for a Thibodeau defense. It just does. Thibodeau almost never went small when he had elite defensive 5s. He clearly favors that.

Thibs ain't benching Josh, so isn't this moot?

[drekwins]

I thought Knicks p-defense was going to be top of the league,after the Bridges trade. I didn't think it's be worse.

While I agree that the Knicks have to improve, this really isn't a fair take. It takes time to implement new players into a scheme and the Knicks are missing BOTH of last years starting centers. We are a completely different team. Not to mention, no one thought that we would be defensive juggernaut with KAT at the center position. No one.

I think that the solution is 4-fold (other than blowing up the roster):
1) Play McBride more alongside Brunson/allow McBride to guard the ball more
2) Get Mitch healthy or trade him for a defensive big
3) Schematic changes - Emphasize running guys off the 3pt line
4) Stop overplaying the starters in blowouts so that they have more energy to defend.

Obviously, each of these 4 measures are oversimplified. However, you all get the point.

The next 15 games is going to make-or-break this team.

Minny was near top of league defensively last year with KAT. This team when Mitch returns arguably has better overall talent defensively than they did. Mitch Bridges OG McBride Hart.....that is 5 elite defenders

They "hid" KAT at the 4 and have arguably one of the best defensive centers ever....

[drekwins]

I thought Knicks p-defense was going to be top of the league,after the Bridges trade. I didn't think it's be worse.

It's deeper than adding long armed, 2 way guys. The two most important positions, when defending, are the guy covering the dribble penetration (typically the PG) and the rim protector contesting shots. The Knicks two worst defensive players are in both of these spots. This leads to OG and Mikel over-helping, and then easy passes for a wide-open 3's.

It all starts with preventing dribble penetration. If you want a master-class of how defensive schematics can influence an offenses ability to penetrate, watch Spo. I am a huge fan of the Miami Heat hard-hedge... especially, when McBride is in the game. IMO, I think we should get McBride on the court much earlier in games, and put Brunson on the weakest offensive player (1-4 positions)... and then, hard hedge with OG, Mikel and Deuce. At a minimum, this will eat up opposing teams play clock and result in guards having to pass out of the double/pick up their dribble. In other words, it wouldn't be as easy to penetrate in the lane... but, the drawback is that it obviously leaves our defense vulnerable from there. I would experiment with it and see if the results are positive.

[StlHawksFan]

Mitch solves this.

Exactly. Strong perimeter defense relies upon a strong drop center who can cover when guys blow by the perimeter coverage. It's tough to play up on guys when you don't have anyone protecting the paint.

[Polk377]

This is the area Mitch will actually help most in. Right now, when teams put KAT in actions, the perimeter defenders are forced to collapse and help leading to breakdowns because KAT is an awful defender. Mitch is excellent at the hedge, giving the perimeter defenders a chance to recover off picks and fewer direct challenges. If your defensive anchor is stable the rest of the team will stay stable.

[HopelessKnick]

I'm somewhere in the middle in regards to Thibs. I think his tendencies are definitely a bit old schoolish with giving up open 3s and his rotation and minutes. That being said keep in mind that an elite rim protector IS indeed a very important ingredient in a successful defense. We have not played a single game this season with one and are sitting on a 33-17 record.

I would like to remind everybody of where the Knicks were 4-5 years ago: A mediocre 30 win team not exciting anyone. Leon and the FO did a fantastic job taking that team and turning it into a top 5 team in the league. If you look at the state of the team 5 years ago, it was never truly realistic to expect the best team in the league today. Keep in mind we never had the first or second draft pick or drafted that franchise cornerstone. All our star players have come through trades or FA signing. You have to look at the Knicks today in context of the recent past and find some contentment in the current state of having a 55 win team with no old players on the roster.

I would abstain from comparisons to Spoelstra and the Heat. Spoelstra had the luxury of having his star players ---Wade, Lebron, Butler, Adebayo being elite two way players. As great as Brunson and KAT have been for us, they are elite on offense but mediocre at best on defense. To me that's completely fine and I love them both on this team. But to expect us to be elite on defense with both of them in the line-up and no true rim protector....that's a bit unrealistic. On top of that, after trading all assets and having a new rotation teams usually need at least a year to gel and for the FO to bolster the bench. These are the good times guys--enjoy the ride.

[nedleeds]

What other coaches in this league can only coach players of an exact archetype so specific that it's become a saying: "oh he's not a coach xxxx type of player"?

Can you imagine folks saying Spo "needs a very specific combination of an elite rim protector and 3 elite defensive wings in the starting lineup to not have the worst 3pt defense in the league".

Thibs has an outdated, gimmick system. He's Bizarro world D'antoni.

He needs to adapt to his personnel. Period.

Mike D'antoni?

Mike D'Antoni made 3 conference finals.

Thibs hasn't since his first season with the Bulls in 2011.

He isn't getting you anything resembling an edge in the playoffs. He's a total fossil.