RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[bledredwine]

What would Ray know ?. He wouldn’t have watched all the footage of Jordan I am told current players do 25 years on so they can make an unbiased assessment in regard to the LeBron vs Jordan question.

Ray played against Jordan and Lebron. He says Jordan “no question” and emphasizes that he was much more skilled

Sorry, I was intending to be sarcastic in view of a previous post about how current players would be in a position to judge Jordan. Played against Jordan, Celtics big 3 and contributed to a Heatles championship.

Ah! My first thought was that you were being sarcastic. My bad

[Bornstellar]

It's clearly MJ imo

Also having Bird on this poll but not Duncan is very odd. Duncan has way more of a GOAT case than Bird does. Robertson is even more puzzling

[bledredwine]

It's clearly MJ imo

Also having Bird on this poll but not Duncan is very odd. Duncan has way more of a GOAT case than Bird does. Robertson is even more puzzling

Bird had a crazy prime. He was one of the most dynamic players the league has seen.
I consider his peak higher than Duncan's.

[ScrantonBulls]

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KG and Pierce dub LeBron the GOAT. Not only that, they dub him the greatest scorer ever. Hard to argue with that given his career ppg average and the scoring record. KG is one of the few great players that played against both players for multiple seasons during their primes.

Pierce was a LeBron hater too for a while. Good find

He states longevity and that’s it.

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There are many more of these from players who faced both but I’m on an iphone.

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Big Ticket > Ray Allen, son

[Franco]

It's going to remain a debate between LBJ and MJ, but hopefully Wemby surpasses both and ends it because that would be pretty fun and also I want to see how MJ fans would react to someone CLEARLY superior to him (assuming Wemby can get there).

It'd probably be the same way you guys react to Jordan being clearly superior to Lebron.

Wemby has a long way to go and has to improve a lot. But I'm rooting for him.
He's actually likeable and competitive.

Watch on YouTube

It's good to see that no matter how much time passes, some things never change. The Jordan fans can't possibly try to make a basketball argument without having to stick in "mental strength" and "I don't like him" stuff sprinkled in. It's amusing.

[bledredwine]

It's going to remain a debate between LBJ and MJ, but hopefully Wemby surpasses both and ends it because that would be pretty fun and also I want to see how MJ fans would react to someone CLEARLY superior to him (assuming Wemby can get there).

It'd probably be the same way you guys react to Jordan being clearly superior to Lebron.

Wemby has a long way to go and has to improve a lot. But I'm rooting for him.
He's actually likeable and competitive.

Watch on YouTube

It's good to see that no matter how much time passes, some things never change. The Jordan fans can't possibly try to make a basketball argument without having to stick in "mental strength" and "I don't like him" stuff sprinkled in. It's amusing.

You mean that choosing to guard the other team’s best player who plays your position in the finals doesn’t matter and that’s it’s cool to let him put up 35 ppg on you?

Yours is another post where a Lebron fan says absolutely nothing. How about you go through the pages of this thread and see all of the stats posted before making assumptions? In these two threads, Lebron was absolutely slaughtered, I’m sorry to say. It’s a stupid comparisiom because Jordan has way too many bases covered whereas Lebron fans mention the two that he needs to be debated; longevity and excuses. Cumulative stats and crap like VORP that isn’t mentioned anywhere else when Jordan leads in the important ones and that’s despite playing in a less inflated
/open court era.

In the last thread, Jordan had three times the votes. In this thread, despite PC forum members being called over, he still is making his way to three times the vote. This is over, just like Kobe Jordan was, sorry to say.

[One Last Shot]

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There are plenty more and if I dig, I’m sure I can find new ones but I’m on an iphone. And I’m talking about players who faced both lebron and Jordan. KG just used longevity as his reason like you guys, but whenever he talked about the level Jordan played at, it was Jordan no question. Same with Pierce. This is for debate sake.

What would Ray know ?. He wouldn’t have watched all the footage of Jordan I am told current players do 25 years on so they can make an unbiased assessment in regard to the LeBron vs Jordan question.

Ray played against Jordan and Lebron. He says Jordan “no question” and emphasizes that he was much more skilled

How come MJ is more skilled than LeBron? When Jordan lost his athleticism, he becomes an inefficient chucker who shot 43% FG, 48% TS for the Wizards and he played less than 49,000 NBA minutes less wear-and-tear while LeBron who already played 70,000 NBA minutes is shooting 51% FG, 60% TS in his 22nd season with more than 9 assists per game. Longevity isn't the same as sustained excellence for more than 2 decades.

[Rust_Cohle]

What would Ray know ?. He wouldn’t have watched all the footage of Jordan I am told current players do 25 years on so they can make an unbiased assessment in regard to the LeBron vs Jordan question.

Ray played against Jordan and Lebron. He says Jordan “no question” and emphasizes that he was much more skilled

How come MJ is more skilled than LeBron? When Jordan lost his athleticism, he becomes an inefficient chucker who shot 43% FG, 48% TS for the Wizards and he played less than 49,000 NBA minutes less wear-and-tear while LeBron who already played 70,000 NBA minutes is shooting 51% FG, 60% TS in his 22nd season with more than 9 assists per game. Longevity isn't the same as sustained excellence for more than 2 decades.

Lebron is literally one of the worst defenders in the league. MJ was never THIS bad defensively and still played 82 games when he could. Never had the luxury of playing with a big man as good as AD. There never ever was a point in MJ’s career where he was the second best player on his team. Lebron has missed the playoffs with the lakers who even then had teams than MJ in his later years with Washington.


LeBron only plays on one side of the ball for years now:

https://www.threads.net/@sidelinesources/post/DDS0NEhy5pP?hl=en

[One Last Shot]

Ray played against Jordan and Lebron. He says Jordan “no question” and emphasizes that he was much more skilled

How come MJ is more skilled than LeBron? When Jordan lost his athleticism, he becomes an inefficient chucker who shot 43% FG, 48% TS for the Wizards and he played less than 49,000 NBA minutes less wear-and-tear while LeBron who already played 70,000 NBA minutes is shooting 51% FG, 60% TS in his 22nd season with more than 9 assists per game. Longevity isn't the same as sustained excellence for more than 2 decades.

Lebron is literally one of the worst defenders in the league. MJ was never THIS bad defensively and still played 82 games when he could. Never had the luxury of playing with a big man as good as AD. There never ever was a point in MJ’s career where he was the second best player on his team. Lebron has missed the playoffs with the lakers who even then had teams than MJ in his later years with Washington.


LeBron only plays on one side of the ball for years now:

https://www.threads.net/@sidelinesources/post/DDS0NEhy5pP?hl=en

LeBron isn't playing with AD anymore, what's their record without him this season? With that 70K workload, do you expect him to be 2-way monster like in his peak? You think Jordan can pull something like this in the highest level of basketball?

Read on Twitter

This is Lakers LeBron before Solomon Hill stupidly jumped on his knee that in my opinion ended his physical prime.

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

[ScrantonBulls]

How come MJ is more skilled than LeBron? When Jordan lost his athleticism, he becomes an inefficient chucker who shot 43% FG, 48% TS for the Wizards and he played less than 49,000 NBA minutes less wear-and-tear while LeBron who already played 70,000 NBA minutes is shooting 51% FG, 60% TS in his 22nd season with more than 9 assists per game. Longevity isn't the same as sustained excellence for more than 2 decades.

Lebron is literally one of the worst defenders in the league. MJ was never THIS bad defensively and still played 82 games when he could. Never had the luxury of playing with a big man as good as AD. There never ever was a point in MJ’s career where he was the second best player on his team. Lebron has missed the playoffs with the lakers who even then had teams than MJ in his later years with Washington.


LeBron only plays on one side of the ball for years now:

https://www.threads.net/@sidelinesources/post/DDS0NEhy5pP?hl=en

LeBron isn't playing with AD anymore, what's their record without him this season? With that 70K workload, do you expect him to be 2-way monster like in his peak? You think Jordan can pull something like this in the highest level of basketball?

Read on Twitter

This is Lakers LeBron before Solomon Hill stupidly jumped on his knee that in my opinion ended his physical prime.

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

MJ didnt have the drive or passion to play this long. Dude needed to quit twice during his prime. It's always funny when people go on about his passion for the game and will to win. If he was so passionate and wanted to win THAT badly, why did he quit twice during his prime while on championship teams?

[ScrantonBulls]

It's going to remain a debate between LBJ and MJ, but hopefully Wemby surpasses both and ends it because that would be pretty fun and also I want to see how MJ fans would react to someone CLEARLY superior to him (assuming Wemby can get there).

It'd probably be the same way you guys react to Jordan being clearly superior to Lebron.

Wemby has a long way to go and has to improve a lot. But I'm rooting for him.
He's actually likeable and competitive.

Watch on YouTube

It's good to see that no matter how much time passes, some things never change. The Jordan fans can't possibly try to make a basketball argument without having to stick in "mental strength" and "I don't like him" stuff sprinkled in. It's amusing.

Jordan fans love using absurd intangibles that can't be proved or disproved, or giving him credit for things that no other players get credit for.

- A pathological will to win
- Mental toughness
- Taught his teammates how to win
- Teammates became great because they were able to practice against him

It shows how effective the MJ marketing campaign worked on them.

[michaelm]

Lebron is literally one of the worst defenders in the league. MJ was never THIS bad defensively and still played 82 games when he could. Never had the luxury of playing with a big man as good as AD. There never ever was a point in MJ’s career where he was the second best player on his team. Lebron has missed the playoffs with the lakers who even then had teams than MJ in his later years with Washington.


LeBron only plays on one side of the ball for years now:

https://www.threads.net/@sidelinesources/post/DDS0NEhy5pP?hl=en

LeBron isn't playing with AD anymore, what's their record without him this season? With that 70K workload, do you expect him to be 2-way monster like in his peak? You think Jordan can pull something like this in the highest level of basketball?

Read on Twitter

This is Lakers LeBron before Solomon Hill stupidly jumped on his knee that in my opinion ended his physical prime.

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

MJ didnt have the drive or passion to play this long. Dude needed to quit twice during his prime. It's always funny when people go on about his passion for the game and will to win. If he was so passionate and wanted to win THAT badly, why did he quit twice during his prime while on championship teams?

You don’t think his father getting murdered might have been a significant event in his life/given him some by pause ?.

And if he was in his prime at age 35 that is a rather good argument for his longevity rather than against it. Indeed he was still good enough to lead a team to a third successive title at that age. Neither he nor LeBron have exhibited sustained excellence after the age of 35.

[NyKnicks1714]

Shaq, Bird, Oscar, and Hakeem have been a wonderful addition to this poll.

[bledredwine]

What would Ray know ?. He wouldn’t have watched all the footage of Jordan I am told current players do 25 years on so they can make an unbiased assessment in regard to the LeBron vs Jordan question.

Ray played against Jordan and Lebron. He says Jordan “no question” and emphasizes that he was much more skilled

How come MJ is more skilled than LeBron? When Jordan lost his athleticism, he becomes an inefficient chucker who shot 43% FG, 48% TS for the Wizards and he played less than 49,000 NBA minutes less wear-and-tear while LeBron who already played 70,000 NBA minutes is shooting 51% FG, 60% TS in his 22nd season with more than 9 assists per game. Longevity isn't the same as sustained excellence for more than 2 decades.

Jordan was a (much) better shooter, better dribbler, better layup package, (much) better going left, (much) better footwork, (much) better defender or if you’re one of those who believes otherwise, than he was (much) more consistently good throughout his career and his achievements show this anyway. He was a better interior passer (perimeter passing goes to lebron obviously).


If 70% of your shots come from within three feet, of course you’ll be more efficient. Lebron’s midrange percentage is slightly above 31% in the playoffs and he hits 3 of 4 freethrows. If you’re comparing scoring skills, it’s not close and I believe that you know that.

See my sig.

[Rust_Cohle]

How come MJ is more skilled than LeBron? When Jordan lost his athleticism, he becomes an inefficient chucker who shot 43% FG, 48% TS for the Wizards and he played less than 49,000 NBA minutes less wear-and-tear while LeBron who already played 70,000 NBA minutes is shooting 51% FG, 60% TS in his 22nd season with more than 9 assists per game. Longevity isn't the same as sustained excellence for more than 2 decades.

Lebron is literally one of the worst defenders in the league. MJ was never THIS bad defensively and still played 82 games when he could. Never had the luxury of playing with a big man as good as AD. There never ever was a point in MJ’s career where he was the second best player on his team. Lebron has missed the playoffs with the lakers who even then had teams than MJ in his later years with Washington.


LeBron only plays on one side of the ball for years now:

https://www.threads.net/@sidelinesources/post/DDS0NEhy5pP?hl=en

LeBron isn't playing with AD anymore, what's their record without him this season? With that 70K workload, do you expect him to be 2-way monster like in his peak? You think Jordan can pull something like this in the highest level of basketball?

Read on Twitter

This is Lakers LeBron before Solomon Hill stupidly jumped on his knee that in my opinion ended his physical prime.

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

Of course:

Watch on YouTube

And now lebron gets to play with doncic. Never ever was Jordan second best on his team, and yet LeBron continues to play with more HOF’s than anyone else in history yet less titles. Oof

The two most lopsided finals series losses in nba HISTORY belong to lebron, so spare me the sustained excellence. Jordan never ran to the weaker conference for most of his career either.

[bledredwine]

(edit, link didn't work)

[Iwasawitness]

Lebron is literally one of the worst defenders in the league. MJ was never THIS bad defensively and still played 82 games when he could. Never had the luxury of playing with a big man as good as AD. There never ever was a point in MJ’s career where he was the second best player on his team. Lebron has missed the playoffs with the lakers who even then had teams than MJ in his later years with Washington.


LeBron only plays on one side of the ball for years now:

https://www.threads.net/@sidelinesources/post/DDS0NEhy5pP?hl=en

LeBron isn't playing with AD anymore, what's their record without him this season? With that 70K workload, do you expect him to be 2-way monster like in his peak? You think Jordan can pull something like this in the highest level of basketball?

Read on Twitter

This is Lakers LeBron before Solomon Hill stupidly jumped on his knee that in my opinion ended his physical prime.

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

Of course:

Watch on YouTube

And now lebron gets to play with doncic. Never ever was Jordan second best on his team, and yet LeBron continues to play with more HOF’s than anyone else in history yet less titles. Oof

The two most lopsided finals series losses in nba HISTORY belong to lebron, so spare me the sustained excellence. Jordan never ran to the weaker conference for most of his career either.

Serious question: What is the point of mentioning that LeBron played in two of the most lopsided NBA finals in history if we all know he isn't the reason for them being so lopsided?

[bledredwine]

LeBron isn't playing with AD anymore, what's their record without him this season? With that 70K workload, do you expect him to be 2-way monster like in his peak? You think Jordan can pull something like this in the highest level of basketball?

Read on Twitter

This is Lakers LeBron before Solomon Hill stupidly jumped on his knee that in my opinion ended his physical prime.

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

Of course:

Watch on YouTube

And now lebron gets to play with doncic. Never ever was Jordan second best on his team, and yet LeBron continues to play with more HOF’s than anyone else in history yet less titles. Oof

The two most lopsided finals series losses in nba HISTORY belong to lebron, so spare me the sustained excellence. Jordan never ran to the weaker conference for most of his career either.

Serious question: What is the point of mentioning that LeBron played in two of the most lopsided NBA finals in history if we all know he isn't the reason for them being so lopsided?

Because if he could score at will and is actually in the GOAT debate, it shouldn't be that much of a slaughter.

But we're talking about a guy who not only (choked) lost his team a championship (2011), but also participated in two of the worst finals slaughters of all time, with a finals record of 4-6. 30% of those fall into that first sentence. That definitely matters.

[Iwasawitness]

Of course:

Watch on YouTube

And now lebron gets to play with doncic. Never ever was Jordan second best on his team, and yet LeBron continues to play with more HOF’s than anyone else in history yet less titles. Oof

The two most lopsided finals series losses in nba HISTORY belong to lebron, so spare me the sustained excellence. Jordan never ran to the weaker conference for most of his career either.

Serious question: What is the point of mentioning that LeBron played in two of the most lopsided NBA finals in history if we all know he isn't the reason for them being so lopsided?

Because if he could score at will and is actually in the GOAT debate, it shouldn't be that much of a slaughter.

But we're talking about a guy who not only (choked) lost his team a championship (2011), but also participated in two of the worst finals slaughters of all time, with a finals record of 4-6. 30% of those fall into that first sentence. That definitely matters.

I mean, in one series he averaged 28 PPG against a terrific defensive team and in the other, he dropped 51 before messing his hand up. In both cases, he went up against significantly better teams. Pinning this on him makes no sense.

[michaelm]

Serious question: What is the point of mentioning that LeBron played in two of the most lopsided NBA finals in history if we all know he isn't the reason for them being so lopsided?

Because if he could score at will and is actually in the GOAT debate, it shouldn't be that much of a slaughter.

But we're talking about a guy who not only (choked) lost his team a championship (2011), but also participated in two of the worst finals slaughters of all time, with a finals record of 4-6. 30% of those fall into that first sentence. That definitely matters.

I mean, in one series he averaged 28 PPG against a terrific defensive team and in the other, he dropped 51 before messing his hand up. In both cases, he went up against significantly better teams. Pinning this on him makes no sense.

Yes, I highly doubt Jordan could have won those series in LeBron’s place, and whether he would have done significantly better we will never know. He might have been on a better constructed team playing a less heliocentric game plan, but that is entirely hypothetical of course. Perhaps ironically LeBron also played his part in the genesis of the KD GSW team, as others have said previously no way does KD go to GSW in a milieu other than one in which LeBron has already done the superteam thing twice, the first of which beat KD’s homegrown team of fellow 22 and 23 year olds followed by acclamation of LeBron for beating KD, as well as the GSW team being peeved about LeBron’s gamesmanship to get Green suspended and the tombstone celebration etc after he and the Cavs won the title.

Other than you recently on the LeBron side of things we have a nice straw man about Jordan partisans claiming he is mentally tougher etc which hasn’t been in the current/recent discussion, in fact the reverse argument that Jordan was lesser/weak for temporarily retiring between the 2 threepeats ignoring that this was after his father was murdered in a roadside shooting, and claims that LeBron is better than Jordan because of sustained excellence after the age of 35 while simultaneously maintaining that he can’t be expected to give full effort on defense at his advanced age.