Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition

[winforlose]

As for the PG spot, the previous year Mike Conley played in 76 games. Finch wanted to rest him in back to backs, but Conley said that he played just as well in the second games - and proved it. He went on to say that his style of game doesn’t create a lot of contact anymore, really the only type is going through screens. Plus he was vital to Gobert. Any free agent PG would assume he was going to continue to get a lot of minutes.

Connelly invested a future, unprotected 1st and a swap to get Dillingham, which is a big price. Moreover, Finch and Connelly said he was going to be thrown in the deep end right away. Any free agent PG would assume he was going to get a lot of minutes.

Finally, the Wolves have always talked about putting the ball more in Ant’s hands, and how he would need to develop as more of a playmaker. Any free agent PG would assume he would get minutes running the show.


Now, again, IN HINDSIGHT, that hasn’t worked out. Mike started the season poorly. Dillingham didn’t get minutes. NAW struggles in the role, and while DDV looked better, he got hurt. Ant has continued to struggle as a playmaker. Yes, it turns out it would have been great if Morris or JMac had signed with us. But at the time they made the decision, they didn’t know, and Connelly didn’t know, how many minutes would be available for them, and it’s why they didn’t end up here.

I addressed the timeline below. That said,

1. As a guy goes from an unusually strong age 36 year to year 37 you must plan for slippage/age wall. If he is great, then great. But if not, you must have plan. We didn’t. You say well he was great before playing in 76 games and a deep playoff run. I say that is exactly why he is a big risk for trouble this year. The penalties for being in the tax much less the second apron are steep after 3 years, you don’t take the risk of Mike or Dilly not being able to play their given role, I am sorry you just DON’T.

2. As you keep pointing out the decision to not secure a 3rd PG was made before getting DDV. Ant said during the playoffs he didn’t want to be a PG, he wanted to be an SG and have someone create for him. This argument doesn’t pass the smell test.

3. Early season DDV was tried at PG and we found he isn’t a natural at it. He can do it, we inserted him in the spot for it, but he is a SG playing PG and teams who do that often struggle with TURNOVERS!

4. If you are honestly telling me guys don’t sign up to be a 3rd string then why did JMAC sign up to be a 4th? We could have paid him more than the minimum, and unless he was pissed and wanted out, he probably takes it.

[shrink]

4. TC has all 5 returning starters, he has Naz and NAW, plus Minott, Shannon, Miller, and the rookies under contract. He has been negotiating with the Knicks to get DDV and Randle. Not one or the other, both! He knows the structure of that deal is very specific because of the NYK and MIN salary situations. NYK refuses to include DDV and we proceed to FA.

5. We lose Kyle, Monte, JMAC, and Luka to free agency….

July 1: Morris, JMac, Anderson, Garza become free agents
July 5: Sign Garza
July 6: Sign Ingles
July 15: Sign Dozier

Oct 2: Towns traded

With a gap of two-and-a-half months, it’s hard to imagine that Connelly expected that the Knicks would suddenly include DiVincenzo, and break up the Nova Knicks. There is no evidence Connelly was negotiating for both Randle and DDV, all we heard after the fact was that the Knicks were offering packages based on Randle and Mitchell Robinson, and picks, and Connelly rejected them all. In addition, Robinson makes $3 mil more than DDV, so this idea that there would be a complicated deal is again, not in evidence.

[winforlose]

4. TC has all 5 returning starters, he has Naz and NAW, plus Minott, Shannon, Miller, and the rookies under contract. He has been negotiating with the Knicks to get DDV and Randle. Not one or the other, both! He knows the structure of that deal is very specific because of the NYK and MIN salary situations. NYK refuses to include DDV and we proceed to FA.

5. We lose Kyle, Monte, JMAC, and Luka to free agency….

July 1: Morris, JMac, Anderson, Garza become free agents
July 5: Sign Garza
July 6: Sign Ingles
July 15: Sign Dozier

Oct 2: Towns traded

With a gap of two-and-a-half months, it’s hard to imagine that Connelly expected that the Knicks would suddenly include DiVincenzo, and break up the Nova Knicks. There is no evidence Connelly was negotiating for both Randle and DDV, all we heard after the fact was that the Knicks were offering packages based on Randle and Mitchell Robinson, and picks, and Connelly rejected them all. In addition, Robinson makes $3 mil more than DDV, so this idea that there would be a complicated deal is again, not in evidence.

Quoting you “ Connelly made all those decisions before NYK was willing to include DiVincenzo in the KAT trade.” TC demanded DDV and Randle, it wasn’t like NYK just pitched it out of the blue. TC needs to not make any trade that break the season. He didn’t secure a backup C. He just didn’t. TC needs to have contingencies in place and he didn’t, so either don’t make the KAT trade at all, or make another ****** move. This was the worst of both worlds.

Here is more proof

“We don't trade a person like KAT lightly,” Connelly said, via a report from Jon Krawczynski for The Athletic. “We were very specific with what it would take. Quite frankly, the asking price was very high when you see what these guys accomplished last year.”


https://clutchpoints.com/timberwolves-news-president-tough-karl-anthony-towns-admission-trade


Edit to add: you did remind me of one thing, we didn’t even get to see Dilly play in summer league before we pissed away all our PG depth. We took it on blind faith that a 19 year old at 165 pounds (I think that is accurate,) could play rotation minutes for a contender, and that Mike would not get hurt at any time during the season. It is indefensible.

[shrink]

4. TC has all 5 returning starters, he has Naz and NAW, plus Minott, Shannon, Miller, and the rookies under contract. He has been negotiating with the Knicks to get DDV and Randle. Not one or the other, both! He knows the structure of that deal is very specific because of the NYK and MIN salary situations. NYK refuses to include DDV and we proceed to FA.

5. We lose Kyle, Monte, JMAC, and Luka to free agency….

July 1: Morris, JMac, Anderson, Garza become free agents
July 5: Sign Garza
July 6: Sign Ingles
July 15: Sign Dozier

Oct 2: Towns traded

With a gap of two-and-a-half months, it’s hard to imagine that Connelly expected that the Knicks would suddenly include DiVincenzo, and break up the Nova Knicks. There is no evidence Connelly was negotiating for both Randle and DDV, all we heard after the fact was that the Knicks were offering packages based on Randle and Mitchell Robinson, and picks, and Connelly rejected them all. In addition, Robinson makes $3 mil more than DDV, so this idea that there would be a complicated deal is again, not in evidence.

Quoting you “ Connelly made all those decisions before NYK was willing to include DiVincenzo in the KAT trade.” TC demanded DDV and Randle, it wasn’t like NYK just pitched it out of the blue.

Ok Mr. Omniscience, since you seem to magically know that Connelly was negotiating for both Randle and DDV in a complicated deal before free agency ,,

Was Connelly negotiating in June for Randle and Brunson?
Was Connelly negotiating in June for Anunoby and Bridges?
Was Connelly negotiating in June for Brunson and Bridges?
Was Connelly negotiating in June for Brunson, Hart and Mitchell Robinson?
How many picks did each of these deals have in Connelly’s negotiations?
What “complicated deal” did each of these, and every other combination, have because of the CBA?

This is what I keep saying. You know something in the future, like the final trade was Randle and DDV, and you put that knowledge in someone 2.5 months earlier, and then blame them for not acting on it.

I’m done with you on this. You are inventing your own reality here, to scapegoat the people you want to scapegoat. I am never going to convince you if you can imagine facts to fill in the holes in your case. I suggest you go back to my first post on this, and that will be my position.

[minimus]

Let's get crazy....
Anthony Edwards for Tyrese Haliburton

I don't know nothing about about Hali downfall, but is it possible that IND will trade him because of new CBA rules if he continues to struggle and gets injured? I mean not for draft pick haul, but expiring and a few assets?

[winforlose]

July 1: Morris, JMac, Anderson, Garza become free agents
July 5: Sign Garza
July 6: Sign Ingles
July 15: Sign Dozier

Oct 2: Towns traded

With a gap of two-and-a-half months, it’s hard to imagine that Connelly expected that the Knicks would suddenly include DiVincenzo, and break up the Nova Knicks. There is no evidence Connelly was negotiating for both Randle and DDV, all we heard after the fact was that the Knicks were offering packages based on Randle and Mitchell Robinson, and picks, and Connelly rejected them all. In addition, Robinson makes $3 mil more than DDV, so this idea that there would be a complicated deal is again, not in evidence.

Quoting you “ Connelly made all those decisions before NYK was willing to include DiVincenzo in the KAT trade.” TC demanded DDV and Randle, it wasn’t like NYK just pitched it out of the blue.

Ok Mr. Omniscience, since you seem to magically know that Connelly was negotiating for both Randle and DDV in a complicated deal before free agency ,,

Was Connelly negotiating in June for Randle and Brunson?
Was Connelly negotiating in June for Anunoby and Bridges?
Was Connelly negotiating in June for Brunson and Bridges?
Was Connelly negotiating in June for Brunson, Hart and Mitchell Robinson?
How many picks did each of these deals have in Connelly’s negotiations?
What “complicated deal” did each of these, and every other combination, have because of the CBA?

This is what I keep saying. You know something in the future, like the final trade was Randle and DDV, and you put that knowledge in someone 2.5 months earlier, and then blame them for not knowing it.

I’m done with you on this. You are inventing your own reality here, to scapegoat the people you want to scapegoat. I am never going to convince you if you can imagine facts to fill in the holes in your case. I suggest you go back to my first post on this, and that will be my position.

Shrink I gave you a TC quote that literally says it. Finch wanted Randle and TC wanted DDV for over a year. The money parameters were reported on and very complicated. What is omniscient about quoting the people who actually made the trade. Your version of events has TC saying pitch me and then saying no. My version which also happens to be TC’s version is that NYK informed TC they wanted to trade for Karl. They pitched a package that TC rejected. TC told them what he wanted and they said NO!. Then, months later after other trades for Kessler and starting Cs went no where, NYK came back to TC and said deal. Again, the reporting is all there if you go back and look. This wasn’t a great mystery. Plus you are so hung up on one small detail (the argument about signing PJ,) that you miss the fact that Charlotte was involved in this trade. They took players form NYK to make the money work. Are you certain we couldn’t find anyone to take PJ? Or are you certain that NYK would blow up the deal over giving a future second to get it done? That would have allowed us to keep KBD anyway.

TC could have told NYK no in September. He didn’t. At that point he knew the roster he was going into the season with. This is a fact. He knew that he had a shallow PG rotation and a shallow C rotation and made the deal anyway. He didn’t make a move since, and who knows if he will before the deadline. TC is to blame for TC’s decisions.

[shrink]

Maybe you’re right, but still, what would make a potential free agent center want to sign with MIN?

I also don’t understand that even if you asked for Randle + DDV for over a year, and were told no every time, why you would make moves in July expecting them to say yes in October?

[winforlose]

Maybe you’re right, but still, what would make a potential free agent center want to sign with MIN?

I also don’t understand that even if you asked for Randle + DDV for months, and were told no every time, why you would make moves in July expecting them to say yes in October?

No more Kyle means any injury to KAT leaves C2 wide open. Any injury to Rudy means Karl has to slide to C1 and Naz to PF 1, and C2 is wide open. Any injury to Naz and Karl has to play all his minutes at PF, and C2 is wide open. We won’t sign a starting quality C on a minimum, but plenty of guys sign up to be 3rd string, including Luka. We could have found one who can play defense.

Edit to add: Up to that point we had been known to run 3 bigs with Naz, Karl, and Rudy, (unicorn lineup.) So if Naz wanted to move some minutes to PF behind Jaden, then that is even more minutes for a 4/5 combo player to slot in. Are you telling me no 4/5 combo players were available during FA. What about Daniel Theis off the top of my head?

[shrink]

Let's get crazy....
Anthony Edwards for Tyrese Haliburton

I don't know nothing about about Hali downfall, but is it possible that IND will trade him because of new CBA rules if he continues to struggle and gets injured? I mean not for draft pick haul, but expiring and a few assets?

One of the biggest advantages for us to keep Anthony Edwards in Minnesota is because Anthony Edwards wants to be in Minnesota.

I think Ant is already a better player than Haliburton, and with the huge athletic gap between them, his ceiling is so much higher. But even if we were offered a superior player (say, Luka Doncic?), I am not sure MIN trades Ant because of the huge risk that the player doesn’t want to be in Minnesota and walks for nothing.

[Klomp]

At this point it is summer 24 and he watches Dilly play through Summer league before free agency.

No, no, no! I already said it but I guess I need to say it again! Learn the NBA calendar and learn it's OK to admit when you are wrong about something.

Kyle Anderson was S/T'd on July 6.
Jordan McLaughlin was signed on July 9.
First game of summer league was July 12.

[winforlose]

At this point it is summer 24 and he watches Dilly play through Summer league before free agency.

No, no, no! I already said it but I guess I need to say it again! Learn the NBA calendar and learn it's OK to admit when you are wrong about something.

Kyle Anderson was S/T'd on July 6.
Jordan McLaughlin was signed on July 9.
First game of summer league was July 12.

I already made this admission about this topic. I said it during the argument with Shrink. He used the dates, and it clicked. I was wrong and in this case that makes depending on an untested Dilly even less smart.

[minimus]

Would you trade Randle for Middleton? No picks attached

[ILC]

Would you trade Randle for Middleton? No picks attached

Absolutely not. Watched him a lot this year and dude is cooked physically and also has a player option for next season which he will 100% exercise. Would give you even less space to re-sign Naz and NAW.

Also, a much worse player than Randle at this point

[Slim Tubby]

Let's get crazy....
Anthony Edwards for Tyrese Haliburton

I don't know nothing about about Hali downfall, but is it possible that IND will trade him because of new CBA rules if he continues to struggle and gets injured? I mean not for draft pick haul, but expiring and a few assets?

One of the biggest advantages for us to keep Anthony Edwards in Minnesota is because Anthony Edwards wants to be in Minnesota.

I think Ant is already a better player than Haliburton, and with the huge athletic gap between them, his ceiling is so much higher. But even if we were offered a superior player (say, Luka Doncic?), I am not sure MIN trades Ant because of the huge risk that the player doesn’t want to be in Minnesota and walks for nothing.

KAT wanted to stay in MIN. We even traded a league generation of FRPs for Gobert to pair with Karl to create a unique advantage. A year later, we abandon this strategy and move Karl for absolute ****.

Why did we do this? What changed following our greatest season in 20 years? Was Connelly unaware that he could review our Salary Cap structure farther than six (6) months out?

I can't think of a worse scenario for an NBA team than having your GM, on the last year of their contract, making long-term decisions for the franchise.

Tim Connelly can **** off right along with our ownership. The ultimate cost of his actions will be the loss of Ant. The road to his departure has already been paved.

With that said, I DO appreciate your efforts to remain positive. It's a rare quality these days and admirable...but sometimes a guy just needs to read the room and accept what his eyes are telling him.

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[NebWolvesFan]

I still think NAW gets traded. My prediction is Toronto for Ogbaji and picks - hopefully IND 2026 first. NAW is this year's Kyle Anderson. Last year, the Wolves kept Anderson because they were in the top spot in the West. Now they are in 7th and if Minnesota wants to play Conley/Edwards/Donte/Dillingham/Clark next year, Minnesota can probably survive without NAW.

I also think Miller gets moved. Minnesota will need his roster spot next year and I will like it's easier to trade him for a player than into someone's cap space this summer - which Minnesota will likely have to add a pick. If Springer can fetch a pick, hopefully Miller can.

[Slim Tubby]

I still think NAW gets traded. My prediction is Toronto for Ogbaji and picks - hopefully IND 2026 first. NAW is this year's Kyle Anderson. Last year, the Wolves kept Anderson because they were in the top spot in the West. Now they are in 7th and if Minnesota wants to play Conley/Edwards/Donte/Dillingham/Clark next year, Minnesota can probably survive without NAW.

I also think Miller gets moved. Minnesota will need his roster spot next year and I will like it's easier to trade him for a player than into someone's cap space this summer - which Minnesota will likely have to add a pick. If Springer can fetch a pick, hopefully Miller can.

NAW is an Expiring 27-year old and of no value to a rebuilding team like TOR. They wouldn't trade Ogbaji straight up for NAW, let alone add picks.

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[Klomp]

Read on Twitter

Feels like a "he won't be hurt that long, go ahead and trade for him".....

....or it's a "he won't be out that long, he can still come back and help us".

[Klomp]

I still think NAW gets traded. My prediction is Toronto for Ogbaji and picks - hopefully IND 2026 first. NAW is this year's Kyle Anderson. Last year, the Wolves kept Anderson because they were in the top spot in the West. Now they are in 7th and if Minnesota wants to play Conley/Edwards/Donte/Dillingham/Clark next year, Minnesota can probably survive without NAW.

I also think Miller gets moved. Minnesota will need his roster spot next year and I will like it's easier to trade him for a player than into someone's cap space this summer - which Minnesota will likely have to add a pick. If Springer can fetch a pick, hopefully Miller can.

NAW is an Expiring 27-year old and of no value to a rebuilding team like TOR. They wouldn't trade Ogbaji straight up for NAW, let alone add picks.

Sent from my N152DL using RealGM mobile app

He's 26.

But yeah, Toronto is definitely the wrong team to target, except for the fact that he's Canadian. It's the win-now teams that will target him the most.

[MNnougat]

Just wondering why we can't be the third team in the Heat/Suns trade? I'm sure there ar some salary cap considerations I don't know about, but was just trying things out and pretty much every which way we can swing a trade for Durant using Randle by himself or with NAW. I know he's getting a bit long in the tooth but still is effective and maybe playing with Ant gives him the little bit of extra juice. I know we don't have the draft capital but I really don't think it should take that much added in? I don't know just wondering out loud to a group who can probably better explain it to me

[Domejandro]

Just wondering why we can't be the third team in the Heat/Suns trade? I'm sure there ar some salary cap considerations I don't know about, but was just trying things out and pretty much every which way we can swing a trade for Durant using Randle by himself or with NAW. I know he's getting a bit long in the tooth but still is effective and maybe playing with Ant gives him the little bit of extra juice. I know we don't have the draft capital but I really don't think it should take that much added in? I don't know just wondering out loud to a group who can probably better explain it to me

Minnesota cannot take back more salary than they are sending out, and they cannot aggregate salaries in a trade (for example: you cannot combine two $6MM players to trade for a $10MM player).

There is a funky exception to this where, if Minnesota trades enough salary to get under the Second Apron, they technically can aggregate. That said, it would be a nightmare to coordinate, so it’s unlikely (especially with Minnesota’s lack of pick assets).