Shams: Raps acquire Ingram for Brown + Olynyk + IND 1st

[Merit]

The key things that will matter are what happens with our pick this year, and Ingram’s contract.

Agreed.

[Raptaurus]

BI is great value for a likely non-lottery pick next year. Obviously there are durability and defensive concerns, but he a legitimate 3 level scorer - something this team lacks. The direction of this team also became quite clear now - though I may not be in complete agreement with their approach.

We are not and never were tearing it all down and rebuilding with a trove of draft picks. Maximizing draft position odds and development are being balanced with retooling and looking for ways to improve the roster - even in the short term.

[Merit]

I have questions about “asset accumulation”. Seemingly there was very little market for Ingram because of his salary expectations. So we’re going to pay this guy that no one really wanted and all of a sudden he’s going to be an “asset”?

They're likely thinking they are buying low and that the fit in our system will unlock something like it seems to have done with RJ.

What’s buy low though? We have to pay him this offseason and by all accounts he was looking for big money which is why NOP had trouble trading him. We aren’t exactly a team known for getting players on discount contracts.

Buy low is lower than Scottie’s max, with term accounting for the difference.

[Los_29]

You know who is an ingram level talent? Siakam

Sent from my SM-S921W using RealGM mobile app

So what you’re saying is we won that trade since we now have Siakam who can play the 3, Ochai and Walter for Siakam who plays the 4?

i'm saying the trade didn't make a difference because we're back at the same spot, stuck in mediocrity.

We traded the Indy pick next year. We did not trade our lottery pick this year.

[Prestige]

Accumulating talent and putting yourself in a position to quickly pivot back to a winning team after hopefully getting a top 5 pick in this loaded draft is exactly what you want to do. Who here wants to stomach a 3-5 year rebuild where we trade every vet and lose by 30 nightly with fans wearing paper bags at games? The fans would tune out, Barnes would demand out, and the FO would probably be fired. They need to walk that fine line of tanking and pivoting back.

Now they just need to make sure they tank properly the rest of this year and we have no issues.

[djsunyc]

Do you think Pels had the choice between Kelly or Boucher? If so, why take Kelly?

my guess is that we made sure it was kelly and not chris b/c we needed off his contract next season to help with cap.

[Merit]

That's likely the thought process. RJ has gone from an inefficient chucker to league average efficiency as a Raptor. Ingram is very talented and if they can remove some of the bad shots he takes, the ability is probably there for him to be a 60+ TS% guy especially on this team where he wouldn't be carrying the offensive scoring load by himself.

Yeah, I can't imagine they're gonna let him take a bunch of terrible shots. Although we are somehow 29th in 3pt shots attempted, so who the hell knows?

Worth noting that looking at it year by year, he cut his 3PT% heavily when Willie Green was hired, after shooting more of them for Van Gundy and Gentry. I read that he has a slow release, so maybe it got slower or teams closed out harder on it? He did get more assists.

Also worth noting that Ainge could have beaten this offer (they have an extra first every season and 3 one year) but chose not to, and they need wings and he generally picks them well, or at least he did until this Cody Williams pick (It's crazy early, but he's the same age as Buzelis - who went right after - and Buzelis looks more likely be good).

But Ingram had no interest in Utah. There are agents and the player to consider as well. Ainge is holding onto his assets as usual. He’ll get fired and the next GM will build a contender with his assets.

[TheGeneral99]

I wouldn’t have done this deal.

Giving up a 1st rounder for an expiring contract (in a tank year) and maybe continuing to sit him doesn’t sound great. He is not signed to next year period. I don’t care if there was “good initial extension talks”. Bro could come here and be depressed in the winter time and say ‘imma take my talents to the south’

Listed his favorite NBA cities as LA, Miami, Toronto. I mean, there's few players that are going to put Toronto that close to Miami.

Btw... would you have preferred they just waive Brown and not be able to use that cap space nexzt season? There's way more buyers than sellers this year and that was a possibility.

You would actually be surprised how many players have Toronto in their top list. It hasn’t materialized into them wanting to come play here, but a lot of stars have put Toronto as a top 3 place to play. I’m not sure how our recent change in the type of fans who go to games with recent prices changes that though lol

Perception of Toronto has also changed drastically over the past 10 years and we are known as a basketball city.

We went from a new franchise in a hockey town outside of the US to a basketball powerhouse in the 2010s, having Drake as our ambassador, "we the north", "Jurassic park", winning a championship, having legitimate perennial all-stars. Young guys coming into the league grew up appreciating our team and watching when we won the chip. There are also a ton of Canadians now in the league.

[Merit]

Also it’s a well known fact that the Pels have the worst medical staff in the league.

This.

[Merit]

but we were at a point of competitive cycle of multiple 50+ wins with those Kawhi and Gasol trades.

currently we are at competitive cycle of multiple 20+ win seasons.

as long as Raptors get a top pick in this draft things should be good.....if they didn't have that then I'd be more worried.

If they jump into the top 3 pick you can't say that they wouldn't be in a pretty good position.

if they jump top 4 then yes good position. what a gamble if we slip in draft position due to this

I’m going to put this to bed now. We can’t control our lottery pick. That’s luck. I don’t want to hear, “oh we should’ve tanked harder”. No. Tanking harder doesn’t do anything for developing team chemistry or talent. The odds of getting a 20 point scorer in the draft immediately are quite slim, even in a generational draft.

We are literally “having our cake and eating it too.” Please stop complaining.

[DelAbbot]

This is pretty funny.

"Garbage return for Siakam, the picks are low value"

trades a fraction of the return for Siakam for Ingram

"Garbage trade for Ingram, you don't deal that incredibly valuable pick".

Masai is slowly increasing our value, he conformed to the market and bought a great piece at a cheap rate. We sold Siakam for Ingram and two mid first round prospects in Agbaji and Walter. The deal will get better from this point forward too we'll likely sell high on Agbaji and we have long term control of Jakobe. The depth on the roster is also looking really good.

And **** it, bring back Boucher and let him retire a Raptor!

This is what happens when you are sleep deprived

[Jadoogar]

So what you’re saying is we won that trade since we now have Siakam who can play the 3, Ochai and Walter for Siakam who plays the 4?

i'm saying the trade didn't make a difference because we're back at the same spot, stuck in mediocrity.

We traded the Indy pick next year. We did not trade our lottery pick this year.

we're falling in the lottery rankings. If ingram plays, we could easily have 7th or 8th worst odds.
I think Chicago and Brooklyn are about to take extreme tanking measures. Maybe even portland too.

[disoblige]

came to post this, that made me laugh.

He is our most efficient scorer at 10FGA, 14pts including last year. Also, he isnt great defensively.

You said he needs the ball. That is just not true.

Provide hard evidence he will be effective without the ball.

[Duffman100]

Masai is slowly increasing our value, he conformed to the market and bought a great piece at a cheap rate. We sold Siakam for Ingram and two mid first round prospects in Agbaji and Walter. The deal will get better from this point forward too we'll likely sell high on Agbaji and we have long term control of Jakobe. The depth on the roster is also looking really good.

And **** it, bring back Boucher and let him retire a Raptor!

This is what happens when you are sleep deprived

Can't even argue with that. 7 hours combined the last few nights.

Boucher looks like Wilt to me right now.

[brownbobcat]

as long as Raptors get a top pick in this draft things should be good.....if they didn't have that then I'd be more worried.

If they jump into the top 3 pick you can't say that they wouldn't be in a pretty good position.

if they jump top 4 then yes good position. what a gamble if we slip in draft position due to this

I’m going to put this to bed now. We can’t control our lottery pick. That’s luck. I don’t want to hear, “oh we should’ve tanked harder”. No. Tanking harder doesn’t do anything for developing team chemistry or talent. The odds of getting a 20 point scorer in the draft immediately are quite slim, even in a generational draft.

We are literally “having our cake and eating it too.” Please stop complaining.

I'm pro-tank, but at some point you have to accept there's only so much you can direct the losing and the chips fall where they may.

[Merit]

So the plan is to sit him out the majority of games, not get a good look at him with the rest of the team and then re-sign him for big money without really knowing how he fits on the team? This is an awful plan.

The team needs to start sitting some of the starter players every game, not only Ingram. Besides, he is a proven player, 90% chance he'll be fine if healthy.

That’s all well and good outside of the fact that he’s proven he can’t really stay healthy in his career.

And if your plan is to tank that becomes much harder when you add more starter level players to your roster.

Again, this is a really bad plan if we’re trying to continue to tank.

You can’t have both. If he’s “proven” he can’t stay healthy - even with the team with a trash medical team - then he won’t hurt our tank this year.

[douggood]

i'm saying the trade didn't make a difference because we're back at the same spot, stuck in mediocrity.

We traded the Indy pick next year. We did not trade our lottery pick this year.

we're falling in the lottery rankings. If ingram plays, we could easily have 7th or 8th worst odds.
I think Chicago and Brooklyn are about to take extreme tanking measures. Maybe even portland too.

i posted this a few pages ago, we will likely be locked in the 2nd tier

there are 31 games left, raptors will be in tier 2 of tankers, end up in the 5-7 range of the draft. the third tier teams are going for it.

was 9 wins
pels 12 wins
jazz 12 wins
hornets 12 wins
------------------
raptors 16 wins
bkn 17 wins
bulls 22 wins
--------------
sixers 20 wins (embidd is back)
blazers 22 wins (won 9 of 10, have shown no incliation of tearing it down)
hawks 23 wins (dont have pick)
spurs 22 wins (fox trade)

[Merit]

The key things that will matter are what happens with our pick this year, and Ingram’s contract.

Yup.

That's what matters now.

As a side note, I do wonder who we add as a back up C. Maybe there is a Davion for a C deal out there somewhere since Shead is playing well.

We draft Khaman

[Corson27]

so depending on what Ingram signs for (if he signs), they will likely be hitting the second tax apron? Is there a world where they don't trade RJ or IQ (likely not IQ due to his contract and injury history) so they're not hamstrung?

[Merit]

I don't like it. Just read an article on sports illustrated that he wanted a max contract from the pels. This is a solid draft at the top. I never wanted to be the worst team in the league but the 11th pick would be devastating.

Maybe he takes less from a team that actually values him.