Grading the Ingram Trade

[WaltFrazier]

For what it's worth: Lewenberg was on the radio with Hayes on Overdrive on TSN 1050 this afternoon. Really casting doubt on the trade, saying it runs counter to the tank. Questioned the on court fit. He and Hayes got into, is Masai the right guy to do this rebuild. I was surprised how negative the segment was overall. Again, fwiw.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/lewenberg-on-the-raptors-trade-deadline-outlook-the-addition-of-ingram-and-the-direction-of-the-team-1.2247945

[Tripod]

For what it's worth: Lewenberg was on the radio with Hayes on Overdrive on TSN 1050 this afternoon. Really casting doubt on the trade, saying it runs counter to the tank. Questioned the on court fit. He and Hayes got into, is Masai the right guy to do this rebuild. I was surprised how negative the segment was overall. Again, fwiw.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/lewenberg-on-the-raptors-trade-deadline-outlook-the-addition-of-ingram-and-the-direction-of-the-team-1.2247945

He dislikes the Raps....even wrote an article on how the Raps failed FVV.

[StopitLeo]

If these aren't outlier stats during losing efforts then I would go even further and say we have a budding superstar on our hands because those are incredible numbers.

So nothing matters because we’re losing? Where was that energy when he was bad in his first ~25 games last season after we acquired him?

No idea how anyone can think Ochai hasn’t been a positive this season. His year 3 numbers are damn-near identical to OG in year 3 and, while he clearly doesn’t have the defensive versatility as OG because of his size, he has been coming into his own as a productive 3+D player. Not everyone needs to be a 25 PPG scorer or DPOY to be considered good.

Yeah he's been a perfectly good 3&D role player. What a weird player to hate on.

Seriously. He’s basically automatic from the corners and brings it on defense. The best thing is he seems to know his role and play within it.

[ciueli]

He's also not a bad defender

No, he's a bad defender. That's the big issue a lot of us have with this trade, can't have a 1, 2, 3 lineup of IQ, Barret, Ingram without conceding a whole lot on the defensive end, that's a recipe for being one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA. Jak is good, but he's not prime Rudy Gobert or Dwight Howard, that's the type of player we'd need to compensate for the horrid defence we're going to see from this starting lineup.

Then consider that Gradey Dick is another guy who will get significant minutes and it gets worse. Then realize we don't have a credible backup PF or C who can play any sort of decent defence, there are a lot of holes to fill without having any flexibility under the tax. Where is the defence for this team coming from? We only have four decent defensive rotation players now, Scottie, Jak, Boucher, and Shead, and there's no guarantee Boucher is on this team next season.

If Boucher is a good defender then Ingram is a good defender. Ochai is also pretty decent along with Shead. I said he's not as bad of a defender as y'all are making it out to be and you replied saying he's a bad defender full stop, we'll agree to disagree on that one unless you have some stats that depict him as a total lost cause on defence.
As for next year, let's see how things play out, we have picks to fill holes, at least it's cheaper to get defense then it is to get offense

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

Only numbers up to 2022-23 but Brandon Ingram is a pretty consistent negative defensive RAPTOR while Boucher is positive. Even just looking at basic stats we can see that Boucher is 1.9 Blocks per game per 36 while Brandon Ingram is 0.6 Blocks per game per 36, Boucher is literally triple the shot blocker that Ingram is. Defensive Win Shares? For his career Boucher has 10.0, while Ingram has 12.6... in over double the minutes Boucher has played (16,316 to 7,102). There are other stats to look at that further confirm this, but you get the idea.

With respect to Ochai, he is another competent defender, but I think this just illustrates my point, he's another bench player who will get limited minutes as he's playing behind Barrett and Ingram, possibly even Ja'Kobe or Gradey for those swing spots. It's hard to put together a decent defensive team when most of the good defenders are coming off the bench for spot minutes.

[MEDIC]

For what it's worth: Lewenberg was on the radio with Hayes on Overdrive on TSN 1050 this afternoon. Really casting doubt on the trade, saying it runs counter to the tank. Questioned the on court fit. He and Hayes got into, is Masai the right guy to do this rebuild. I was surprised how negative the segment was overall. Again, fwiw.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/lewenberg-on-the-raptors-trade-deadline-outlook-the-addition-of-ingram-and-the-direction-of-the-team-1.2247945

Lewenberg......I don't think I even listen when I see that guy do segments on TV. I don't really see him as an expert of any kind.

He probably has a tWo tattoo.

[TimeForChange]

You could move RJ to the bench, Ochai to starting lineup as 3+D.

In theory the Raptors defense improves with Dick and RJ being moved to the bench.

But I doubt it happens just because of ego...they didn't even want to replace Dick with Ochai, let alone RJ.

Can we stop pretending that Ochai is a good player? Agree about RJ as a 6th man.

Ochai has proven to be a good rotation piece this season. 10.4 PPG on 51/41/66 shootings splits (62 TS%) is great for a 5th option while his 43.3 DFG% — 39.4% against guards where he spends the majority of his time on the defensive end — is top ~20 in the league among high frequency defenders (comparable to White at 42.3%, Jalen Johnson at 43.2%, Coulibaly at 42.6%, DFS at 43.9%, OG at 44.6%, etc.). He’s starting to rack up some blocks and steals lately too (2.8 STL+BLK in 22 MPG the last 5). Absolutely nothing wrong with that production from a guy getting 24-28 MPG.

I agree. Ochai has easily been the best development story of the season.

Now, what do you do about re-signing him in the offseason as he is extension eligible?

[RealFaction]

It's a C for me as long as we finish top 6 prior to the draft lottery with a good chance to jump into the top 4.

F if he leaves in FA even though we have his bird rights.

Excluding E since there's no option, a D if his contract is over 40m and/or we finish anywhere between 7th to 14th prior to the draft lottery (it doesn't matter if we fluke into the top 4).

B if he's signed anywhere around 35m, and A if he signs for 30 or less.

[rarefind]

For what it's worth: Lewenberg was on the radio with Hayes on Overdrive on TSN 1050 this afternoon. Really casting doubt on the trade, saying it runs counter to the tank. Questioned the on court fit. He and Hayes got into, is Masai the right guy to do this rebuild. I was surprised how negative the segment was overall. Again, fwiw.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/lewenberg-on-the-raptors-trade-deadline-outlook-the-addition-of-ingram-and-the-direction-of-the-team-1.2247945

I honestly take opinions here more seriously than Lewenberg.

[WaltFrazier]

For what it's worth: Lewenberg was on the radio with Hayes on Overdrive on TSN 1050 this afternoon. Really casting doubt on the trade, saying it runs counter to the tank. Questioned the on court fit. He and Hayes got into, is Masai the right guy to do this rebuild. I was surprised how negative the segment was overall. Again, fwiw.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/lewenberg-on-the-raptors-trade-deadline-outlook-the-addition-of-ingram-and-the-direction-of-the-team-1.2247945

I honestly take opinions here more seriously than Lewenberg.

I figured when I posted this, that posters would attack Lewenberg himself rather than discuss the content of his comments. That's three such posts so far.

He is annoying though, I get that part.

[Agimat]

B+

[rarefind]

For what it's worth: Lewenberg was on the radio with Hayes on Overdrive on TSN 1050 this afternoon. Really casting doubt on the trade, saying it runs counter to the tank. Questioned the on court fit. He and Hayes got into, is Masai the right guy to do this rebuild. I was surprised how negative the segment was overall. Again, fwiw.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/lewenberg-on-the-raptors-trade-deadline-outlook-the-addition-of-ingram-and-the-direction-of-the-team-1.2247945

I honestly take opinions here more seriously than Lewenberg.

I figured when I posted this, that posters would attack Lewenberg himself rather than discuss the content of his comments. That's three such posts so far.

He is annoying though, I get that part.

I've posted enough of my thoughts on this trade.

Pointing to Lewenberg's take adds nothing of merit to the conversation.

[vado]

It could be a B to a D. We could still get a top 5 pick and he resigns to a good deal or he could ruin the tank and not resign

[Scase]

If these aren't outlier stats during losing efforts then I would go even further and say we have a budding superstar on our hands because those are incredible numbers.

So nothing matters because we’re losing? Where was that energy when he was bad in his first ~25 games last season after we acquired him?

No idea how anyone can think Ochai hasn’t been a positive this season. His year 3 numbers are damn-near identical to OG in year 3 and, while he clearly doesn’t have the defensive versatility as OG because of his size, he has been coming into his own as a productive 3+D player. Not everyone needs to be a 25 PPG scorer or DPOY to be considered good.

Yeah he's been a perfectly good 3&D role player. What a weird player to hate on.

I wonder if they took exception with him being slotted into the SL? Like Ochai is a fine player, but realistically not a starter. In our current situation moving RJ and putting Ochai in the SL would solve a lot of our defence issues, so it's not that bad of an idea. Just not a long term one I dont think.

[Pointgod]

For what it's worth: Lewenberg was on the radio with Hayes on Overdrive on TSN 1050 this afternoon. Really casting doubt on the trade, saying it runs counter to the tank. Questioned the on court fit. He and Hayes got into, is Masai the right guy to do this rebuild. I was surprised how negative the segment was overall. Again, fwiw.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/lewenberg-on-the-raptors-trade-deadline-outlook-the-addition-of-ingram-and-the-direction-of-the-team-1.2247945

Yeah no ****. Anyone who isn’t a massive homer would see this isn’t a rebuild, it’s a half measure. If Sacramento or Chicago had done this exact same trade you’d have the same people praising Masai saying Ingram doesn’t move the needle and question what those front offices are doing.

[DelAbbot]

For what it's worth: Lewenberg was on the radio with Hayes on Overdrive on TSN 1050 this afternoon. Really casting doubt on the trade, saying it runs counter to the tank. Questioned the on court fit. He and Hayes got into, is Masai the right guy to do this rebuild. I was surprised how negative the segment was overall. Again, fwiw.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/lewenberg-on-the-raptors-trade-deadline-outlook-the-addition-of-ingram-and-the-direction-of-the-team-1.2247945

Yeah no ****. Anyone who isn’t a massive homer would see this isn’t a rebuild, it’s a half measure. If Sacramento or Chicago had done this exact same trade you’d have the same people praising Masai saying Ingram doesn’t move the needle and question what those front offices are doing.

Really hard to find another team that builds like this - trading away FRP during back to back 20ish win seasons

[ontnut]

Almost everything depends on 2 things: 1) What our draft pick this year will be. 2) What Ingram's contract looks like. So....let's table this and revisit after free agency

Our future is now heavily dependent on this pick hitting. Because I'd bet Masai is now commited to the Ibaka/Gasol trade mode the same way he burned the boats with the Jak trade. Hope the eventual trades protect the picks enough for the likely BI injuries that could send us back to the lotto like the Pels situation.

Our future was always heavily dependent on the pick. The Ingram trade doesn't really change that, nor will it likely change our draft position this year. We were unlikely to be dependent on that Pacers pick or the 2031 2nd we sent out.

Making shrewd trades and building from within, along with picking well, has always been our path to success. Yes, there is risk with BI injuries, that's part of why the cost was so low.

[ontnut]

For what it's worth: Lewenberg was on the radio with Hayes on Overdrive on TSN 1050 this afternoon. Really casting doubt on the trade, saying it runs counter to the tank. Questioned the on court fit. He and Hayes got into, is Masai the right guy to do this rebuild. I was surprised how negative the segment was overall. Again, fwiw.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/lewenberg-on-the-raptors-trade-deadline-outlook-the-addition-of-ingram-and-the-direction-of-the-team-1.2247945

Yeah no ****. Anyone who isn’t a massive homer would see this isn’t a rebuild, it’s a half measure. If Sacramento or Chicago had done this exact same trade you’d have the same people praising Masai saying Ingram doesn’t move the needle and question what those front offices are doing.

Really hard to find another team that builds like this - trading away FRP during back to back 20ish win seasons

There's more than 1 way to skin a cat! We're the guys that zig when others zag. We can't out-tank teams and we're not a FA destination. Trading the luckbox of mid-late FRPs for a guy who has recently been an all-star and still in his prime, is the kind of team we are. We complained and complained for years about being a treadmill team, but with good trades, including trading 1st round picks, we built our franchise. Lowry, Ibaka and then eventually, Kawhi, Green, and Gasol were all acquired by trading our 1sts. Powell was a trade, FVV was FA. The only guys we actually drafted and kept for the championship run were Siakam and OG (who didn't play during the run).

Yes, the Poeltl pick turned out to be higher than expected, that's unfortunate. But the other 2 1st rounders we traded, one was the 29th pick, and the other is likely around the 20th pick. I get the desire to have a mountain of picks to trade or draft, but that's just not the way we have ever operated. We have ammunition, and we shoot our shot judiciously. We don't stockpile gunpowder and try to build a cannon.

We've got Barnes at 4, and likely an upcoming top 6ish pick. Couple former 2nd and 3rd overall picks are on the roster too. I get the feeling most of these guys won't be on the team when we're competing for a championship next, as they will be parlayed, probably including more future 1sts, into even better talent down the line.

Is it a bit counter to the recent meta of tanking? Sure. But the traditional tankers also have yet to win a championship. So there's that too.

[DelAbbot]

Yeah no ****. Anyone who isn’t a massive homer would see this isn’t a rebuild, it’s a half measure. If Sacramento or Chicago had done this exact same trade you’d have the same people praising Masai saying Ingram doesn’t move the needle and question what those front offices are doing.

Really hard to find another team that builds like this - trading away FRP during back to back 20ish win seasons

There's more than 1 way to skin a cat! We're the guys that zig when others zag. We can't out-tank teams and we're not a FA destination. Trading the luckbox of mid-late FRPs for a guy who has recently been an all-star and still in his prime, is the kind of team we are. We complained and complained for years about being a treadmill team, but with good trades, including trading 1st round picks, we built our franchise. Lowry, Ibaka and then eventually, Kawhi, Green, and Gasol were all acquired by trading our 1sts. Powell was a trade, FVV was FA. The only guys we actually drafted and kept for the championship run were Siakam and OG (who didn't play during the run).

Yes, the Poeltl pick turned out to be higher than expected, that's unfortunate. But the other 2 1st rounders we traded, one was the 29th pick, and the other is likely around the 20th pick. I get the desire to have a mountain of picks to trade or draft, but that's just not the way we operate. We have ammunition, and we shoot our shot judiciously. We don't stockpile gunpowder and try to build a cannon.

Can you name a team that was built by selling FRPs during 20ish win seasons? Which ended up become a contender?

[TakeYourHeart]

Should we trade the vets and tank or try to add talent? Masai said "I'mma do both"

Trade is an A

[TakeYourHeart]

For what it's worth: Lewenberg was on the radio with Hayes on Overdrive on TSN 1050 this afternoon. Really casting doubt on the trade, saying it runs counter to the tank. Questioned the on court fit. He and Hayes got into, is Masai the right guy to do this rebuild. I was surprised how negative the segment was overall. Again, fwiw.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/lewenberg-on-the-raptors-trade-deadline-outlook-the-addition-of-ingram-and-the-direction-of-the-team-1.2247945

His opinion is way too tied to the misguided notion that this somehow affects the tank this year.

And a multi-year tank was never on the table with Scottie's max kicking in next year and IQ and RJ on their 2nd contracts.