RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[ScrantonBulls]

Watch on YouTube

One game? Gamescores, used to measure effectiveness of an individual game-
Jordan has 19 of the top 100 game scores of all time single handedly, Lebron has 3.

If you're going to post about scoring streaks? You know this isn't close.

Jordan leads the league with 8 50 point playoff games. No active player has half of that. At one point, the stat was 50 point playoff games since 84 - Jordan 8, rest of league 13 (since then and the 3 point boom it's changed).

He had only 6 playoff games in his career of under 20 points. That means he was statistically more likely to score 50 than under 20.

Heck, I'll eclipse that one carry Lebron example in Jordan's 6 finals runs alone; how about the flu game? Or when Jordan scored the Bulls 4th quarter points in 93 before Paxson hits the 3? Remember the game winner, game winning assist to Kerr, multiple clutch shots in almost every series?

1993 - 41 ppg setting a record in the finals with mostly 2's and absurd efficiency? Lebron's never touched that. Heck, what Lebron did is allow KD to do 35 ppg worth of that while he was guarding him! That's the closest we've seen from Lebron.... was from his opposing player!


How about the 13 field goals straight without missing in the 91 finals, capping it off with "the move"?
1992 finals- 6 3's in a half and "the shrug", setting the finals record for points in a half?
How about the steal, layup, championship winner all in a row? And then if I use the playoffs like you, there's far more, like Jordan's back to back 50 point games against the Cavs, the only in NBA history btw. Jordan has 7 of the top 10 playoff scoring averages of all time and averaged 40 on 5 series, including once in the finals.

In 1991 finals, he had the 3rd most assists of all time behind Russell (inflated) and Magic himself, and that's alongside 31.2 PPG, 6.6 rb (shooting guard btw), 2.8 steals, 1.4 blocks on .558 from the field.

Yeah, Lebron can't do what Jordan did. He couldn't even eclipse his stats in an inflated era... cumulative stats are what he's got, for the millionth time.

2016 finals LeBron led both teams in Points, Assists, Rebounds, Blocks and Steals. Easily the most complete player ever.

But but but 2011!!!

He knows that type of dominance has never been seen before. I've never seen a fan so insecure about their favorite player's legacy. He is constantly making outlandish claims about how nobody is even close to MJ in an attempt to reassure himself that MJ is the greatest. Even most MJ fans think he is being too much of a homer. It's sad in a way.

[fanofthegreats]

By the way,

let’s clear up some things about help.

Jordan played with an all star 8 times. One time, Scottie was sick and he didn’t play alongside, and one time he only played 17 games with rust. So every time he played with a healthy allstar, he won the championship. Think about that.

The other six, he won the championship every single time. You sure as hell can’t say that about Lebron and he’s even lost when he should have won.
People were calling him GOAT after his first championship. Thats how dominant he was. Lebron’s been chasing a ghost even at age forty because he’s not transcendent like the GOAT.

Lebron sure as heck can’t take over a game like MJ, that much we’ve seen.

Watch on YouTube

I wouldn’t bother with the guy. He immediately stops replying the moment he’s proven wrong.

It’s comical. Almost like clockwork. Funniest is he actually believes his own nonsense.

[fanofthegreats]

One game? Gamescores, used to measure effectiveness of an individual game-
Jordan has 19 of the top 100 game scores of all time single handedly, Lebron has 3.

If you're going to post about scoring streaks? You know this isn't close.

Jordan leads the league with 8 50 point playoff games. No active player has half of that. At one point, the stat was 50 point playoff games since 84 - Jordan 8, rest of league 13 (since then and the 3 point boom it's changed).

He had only 6 playoff games in his career of under 20 points. That means he was statistically more likely to score 50 than under 20.

Heck, I'll eclipse that one carry Lebron example in Jordan's 6 finals runs alone; how about the flu game? Or when Jordan scored the Bulls 4th quarter points in 93 before Paxson hits the 3? Remember the game winner, game winning assist to Kerr, multiple clutch shots in almost every series?

1993 - 41 ppg setting a record in the finals with mostly 2's and absurd efficiency? Lebron's never touched that. Heck, what Lebron did is allow KD to do 35 ppg worth of that while he was guarding him! That's the closest we've seen from Lebron.... was from his opposing player!


How about the 13 field goals straight without missing in the 91 finals, capping it off with "the move"?
1992 finals- 6 3's in a half and "the shrug", setting the finals record for points in a half?
How about the steal, layup, championship winner all in a row? And then if I use the playoffs like you, there's far more, like Jordan's back to back 50 point games against the Cavs, the only in NBA history btw. Jordan has 7 of the top 10 playoff scoring averages of all time and averaged 40 on 5 series, including once in the finals.

In 1991 finals, he had the 3rd most assists of all time behind Russell (inflated) and Magic himself, and that's alongside 31.2 PPG, 6.6 rb (shooting guard btw), 2.8 steals, 1.4 blocks on .558 from the field.

Yeah, Lebron can't do what Jordan did. He couldn't even eclipse his stats in an inflated era... cumulative stats are what he's got, for the millionth time.

2016 finals LeBron led both teams in Points, Assists, Rebounds, Blocks and Steals. Easily the most complete player ever.

But but but 2011!!!

He knows that type of dominance has never been seen before. I've never seen a fan so insecure about their favorite player's legacy. He is constantly making outlandish claims about how nobody is even close to MJ in an attempt to reassure himself that MJ is the greatest. Even most MJ fans think he is being too much of a homer. It's sad in a way.

It is sad. His new trope is LeBron only having “longevity and cherry picked triple double stats “. He gets embarrased with any actual basketball discussion. Then he calls conspiracy theory on the PC board for pushing an agenda

[bledredwine]

2016 finals LeBron led both teams in Points, Assists, Rebounds, Blocks and Steals. Easily the most complete player ever.

But but but 2011!!!

He knows that type of dominance has never been seen before. I've never seen a fan so insecure about their favorite player's legacy. He is constantly making outlandish claims about how nobody is even close to MJ in an attempt to reassure himself that MJ is the greatest. Even most MJ fans think he is being too much of a homer. It's sad in a way.

It is sad. His new trope is LeBron only having “longevity and cherry picked triple double stats “. He gets embarrased with any actual basketball discussion. Then he calls conspiracy theory on the PC board for pushing an agenda

Nearly every one of my posts has had plenty of stats and evidence while yours have had... longevity stats or nothing

And to be honest, this is why I love these threads. I get a stacked deck of stats that you guys don't have access to. It's ironic- Jordan supporters become the Lebron of this thread!

At the end of the day, you and the select 25 here can believe Lebron is the GOAT, but the rest of the world and posterity knows what's real. And as time goes by, the polls like this only widen the gap. You'll see.
Remember this - 2025 Jordan 3x the votes. We'll return in 3030, then maybe 3035 and so on.

And good point Scranton, 2011 was a tough choke. He just has too many weaknesses.

Watch on YouTube

Here's Silver's opinion... embed won't work so copy paste.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1GC-eK7ohWY[/youtube]

Yours truly, Adam Silver.

Watch on YouTube

Just like the fans, you'll notice those stating "Jordan" actually give clear and obvious reasons.

[Iwasawitness]

But but but 2011!!!

He knows that type of dominance has never been seen before. I've never seen a fan so insecure about their favorite player's legacy. He is constantly making outlandish claims about how nobody is even close to MJ in an attempt to reassure himself that MJ is the greatest. Even most MJ fans think he is being too much of a homer. It's sad in a way.

It is sad. His new trope is LeBron only having “longevity and cherry picked triple double stats “. He gets embarrased with any actual basketball discussion. Then he calls conspiracy theory on the PC board for pushing an agenda

Nearly every one of my posts has had plenty of stats and evidence while yours have had... longevity stats or nothing

And to be honest, this is why I love these threads. I get a stacked deck of stats that you guys don't have access to. It's ironic- Jordan supporters become the Lebron of this thread!

At the end of the day, you and the select 25 here can believe Lebron is the GOAT, but the rest of the world and posterity knows what's real. And as time goes by, the polls like this only widen the gap. You'll see.
Remember this - 2025 Jordan 3x the votes. We'll return in 3030, then maybe 3035 and so on.

And good point Scranton, 2011 was a tough choke. He just has too many weaknesses.

Watch on YouTube

Here's Silver's opinion... embed won't work so copy paste.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1GC-eK7ohWY[/youtube]

Yours truly, Adam Silver.

Watch on YouTube

Just like the fans, you'll notice those stating "Jordan" actually give clear and obvious reasons.

Empty blanket statements and player opinions are what you call stats and evidence?

[Capn'O]

I think you need the narrative. For example, if he won one this year playing a major part at 40 that would be a hell of a story. The chase down block to beat the 73 win Warriors was a hell of a story. The magic is a huge part of it. When a player defies what you think is possible at the highest level.

It is impossible to separate, but it does have to be addressed with context. Performance at age is one thing, that's a little different. But Jordan, especially since he existed in the pre 24/7 media cycle, had such a perfect narrative. Scoring like a beast, earning his way through his early failures, developing his game, then largely staying on top once he started winning? Game-winners all over the place. It's very early to miss the details with such a sweet, satisfying narrative like that. Especially with how 98 played out.

But that sort of thing makes you overlook details which matter to how things actually played out, right? So you have to be careful.

Popping us into the other thread.

Jordan's narrative is unbelievable and I do think it matters. Especially when we're talking about guys who are just so far above the field that stat fluctuations become somewhat superfluous. When LeBron didn't run the table with the Heatles that really set him back in these discussions. Conversely, when the Cavs beat that Warriors team and then LeBron went on that crazy run in 2018 he really separated himself in the fans' minds eye from guys like Kobe and then even Bird/Magic. Then he becomes the first guy to win one with three teams. If you don't have these coalescing, transcendent moments, what's all the data good for, yknow?

This is what's so exciting about Wemby for me. He's still in the very early stages but the very early stages have him doing that LeBron/Mike thing where I can't believe my eyes at what I'm seeing sometimes. That's where it starts.

[ScrantonBulls]

I think you need the narrative. For example, if he won one this year playing a major part at 40 that would be a hell of a story. The chase down block to beat the 73 win Warriors was a hell of a story. The magic is a huge part of it. When a player defies what you think is possible at the highest level.

It is impossible to separate, but it does have to be addressed with context. Performance at age is one thing, that's a little different. But Jordan, especially since he existed in the pre 24/7 media cycle, had such a perfect narrative. Scoring like a beast, earning his way through his early failures, developing his game, then largely staying on top once he started winning? Game-winners all over the place. It's very early to miss the details with such a sweet, satisfying narrative like that. Especially with how 98 played out.

But that sort of thing makes you overlook details which matter to how things actually played out, right? So you have to be careful.

Popping us into the other thread.

Jordan's narrative is unbelievable and I do think it matters. Especially when we're talking about guys who are just so far above the field that stat fluctuations become somewhat superfluous. When LeBron didn't run the table with the Heatles that really set him back in these discussions. Conversely, when the Cavs beat that Warriors team and then LeBron went on that crazy run in 2018 he really separated himself in the fans' minds eye from guys like Kobe and then even Bird/Magic. Then he becomes the first guy to win one with three teams. If you don't have these coalescing, transcendent moments, what's all the data good for, yknow?

This is what's so exciting about Wemby for me. He's still in the very early stages but the very early stages have him doing that LeBron/Mike thing where I can't believe my eyes at what I'm seeing sometimes. That's where it starts.

C'mon, LeBron was already eons ahead of Kobe in 2018. Kobe never did anything remotely close to what LeBron did in 2016. Leading both teams in points, rebounds, assist, blocks, and steals in the finals, against a 73-9 team? Greatest finals performance ever.

Only casuals and Kobe stans had him above LeBron then. But maybe you are referring to the casual that really don't know the game well.

[JM00n69]

6x NBA CHAMPION.
6x Finals MVP.
5x NBA MVP.
14x NBA ALLSTAR.
9x NBA All-Defensive First Team.
1x NBA DPOY
10x All-NBA First Team.
10x NBA Scoring Champion
ROY

[michaelm]

I think you need the narrative. For example, if he won one this year playing a major part at 40 that would be a hell of a story. The chase down block to beat the 73 win Warriors was a hell of a story. The magic is a huge part of it. When a player defies what you think is possible at the highest level.

It is impossible to separate, but it does have to be addressed with context. Performance at age is one thing, that's a little different. But Jordan, especially since he existed in the pre 24/7 media cycle, had such a perfect narrative. Scoring like a beast, earning his way through his early failures, developing his game, then largely staying on top once he started winning? Game-winners all over the place. It's very early to miss the details with such a sweet, satisfying narrative like that. Especially with how 98 played out.

But that sort of thing makes you overlook details which matter to how things actually played out, right? So you have to be careful.

Popping us into the other thread.

Jordan's narrative is unbelievable and I do think it matters. Especially when we're talking about guys who are just so far above the field that stat fluctuations become somewhat superfluous. When LeBron didn't run the table with the Heatles that really set him back in these discussions. Conversely, when the Cavs beat that Warriors team and then LeBron went on that crazy run in 2018 he really separated himself in the fans' minds eye from guys like Kobe and then even Bird/Magic. Then he becomes the first guy to win one with three teams. If you don't have these coalescing, transcendent moments, what's all the data good for, yknow?

This is what's so exciting about Wemby for me. He's still in the very early stages but the very early stages have him doing that LeBron/Mike thing where I can't believe my eyes at what I'm seeing sometimes. That's where it starts.

Of course it is remarkable and of course he is one of the greatest players of all time, and the guy to choose if you are going to have a team with 1 superstar player teamed with 4 journeyman players.

The thing is you don’t have to construct a team or play the team sport of basketball that way. You can have 4 other players who complement your leading player, and even have bench players who complement him, including having elite players such as Toni Kukoc or Andre Iguodala playing as 6th men because that is the role which is best for the team.

Jordan did absolutely everything you would want from a Shooting Guard. He didn’t need to guard centers because the Bulls had centers who while journeymen compared to Jordan in general were good enough to do that, while he guarded the opposition team’s main scorers who were generally not centers even back then. Similarly you could have another player be the main playmaker while he concentrated on all the other things he did so well. Steph Curry is an even more graphic example, he has/had fairly elite PG skills, not necessarily better than or even as good as LeBron’s, but certainly better than Draymond Green’s, but GSW were better off with Green playmaking and utilising Curry’s otherworldly off ball ability more.

It is actually not unfair to pair Curry with Green or more to the point Jordan with Pippen and getting a multiplier effect rather than a mere additive or less than additive effect.

For all the he didn’t have enough help talk I strongly doubt that Pippen and particularly Green would have had nearly as large a role on a LeBron team.

[michaelm]

It is impossible to separate, but it does have to be addressed with context. Performance at age is one thing, that's a little different. But Jordan, especially since he existed in the pre 24/7 media cycle, had such a perfect narrative. Scoring like a beast, earning his way through his early failures, developing his game, then largely staying on top once he started winning? Game-winners all over the place. It's very early to miss the details with such a sweet, satisfying narrative like that. Especially with how 98 played out.

But that sort of thing makes you overlook details which matter to how things actually played out, right? So you have to be careful.

Popping us into the other thread.

Jordan's narrative is unbelievable and I do think it matters. Especially when we're talking about guys who are just so far above the field that stat fluctuations become somewhat superfluous. When LeBron didn't run the table with the Heatles that really set him back in these discussions. Conversely, when the Cavs beat that Warriors team and then LeBron went on that crazy run in 2018 he really separated himself in the fans' minds eye from guys like Kobe and then even Bird/Magic. Then he becomes the first guy to win one with three teams. If you don't have these coalescing, transcendent moments, what's all the data good for, yknow?

This is what's so exciting about Wemby for me. He's still in the very early stages but the very early stages have him doing that LeBron/Mike thing where I can't believe my eyes at what I'm seeing sometimes. That's where it starts.

C'mon, LeBron was already eons ahead of Kobe in 2018. Kobe never did anything remotely close to what LeBron did in 2016. Leading both teams in points, rebounds, assist, blocks, and steals in the finals, against a 73-9 team? Greatest finals performance ever.

Only casuals and Kobe stans had him above LeBron then. But maybe you are referring to the casual that really don't know the game well.

Again, everyone knows the 73 win team was not even the best ever GSW team, which was the 2017 team which has the best play-off record of all time rather than a fairly meaningless regular season record which they achieved partly because they tried so hard to get it, to the eventual detriment of their season outcome. The 2016 team very definitely weren’t the best play-offs team of all time before they even played the Cavs, and it was the 2016 GSW play-offs team that LeBron and the Cavs beat.

[ScrantonBulls]

Popping us into the other thread.

Jordan's narrative is unbelievable and I do think it matters. Especially when we're talking about guys who are just so far above the field that stat fluctuations become somewhat superfluous. When LeBron didn't run the table with the Heatles that really set him back in these discussions. Conversely, when the Cavs beat that Warriors team and then LeBron went on that crazy run in 2018 he really separated himself in the fans' minds eye from guys like Kobe and then even Bird/Magic. Then he becomes the first guy to win one with three teams. If you don't have these coalescing, transcendent moments, what's all the data good for, yknow?

This is what's so exciting about Wemby for me. He's still in the very early stages but the very early stages have him doing that LeBron/Mike thing where I can't believe my eyes at what I'm seeing sometimes. That's where it starts.

C'mon, LeBron was already eons ahead of Kobe in 2018. Kobe never did anything remotely close to what LeBron did in 2016. Leading both teams in points, rebounds, assist, blocks, and steals in the finals, against a 73-9 team? Greatest finals performance ever.

Only casuals and Kobe stans had him above LeBron then. But maybe you are referring to the casual that really don't know the game well.

Again, everyone knows the 73 win team was not even the best ever GSW team, which was the 2017 team which has the best play-off record of all time rather than a fairly meaningless regular season record which they achieved partly because they tried so hard to get it, to the eventual detriment of their season outcome. The 2016 team very definitely weren’t the best play-offs team of all time, and it was the 2016 GSW play-offs team that LeBron and the Cavs beat.

No **** they weren't as good as 2017 when the got Durant. They literally added an MVP to the 73-9 team. No team in NBA history stands a chance against the KD Warriors. That type of team could take down the dream team. The 73-9 team was still one of the greatest teams in NBA history, as evident by their regular season record. The team was absurd and is probably the best (healthy) team to ever lose in the finals. Only dummies consider it a knock on LeBron's legacy for losing to any of those warriors teams in the finals.

I know it fashionable to downplay the 73-9 warriors if you hate LeBron, but let's be honest about it. That was an all time upset - especially considering Kevin Love was either out or completely worthless due to his concussion. That series for LeBron is the greatest performance in finals history when you consider the circumstances.

[michaelm]

C'mon, LeBron was already eons ahead of Kobe in 2018. Kobe never did anything remotely close to what LeBron did in 2016. Leading both teams in points, rebounds, assist, blocks, and steals in the finals, against a 73-9 team? Greatest finals performance ever.

Only casuals and Kobe stans had him above LeBron then. But maybe you are referring to the casual that really don't know the game well.

Again, everyone knows the 73 win team was not even the best ever GSW team, which was the 2017 team which has the best play-off record of all time rather than a fairly meaningless regular season record which they achieved partly because they tried so hard to get it, to the eventual detriment of their season outcome. The 2016 team very definitely weren’t the best play-offs team of all time, and it was the 2016 GSW play-offs team that LeBron and the Cavs beat.

No **** they weren't as good as 2017 when the got Durant. They literally added an MVP to the 73-9 team. No team in NBA history stands a chance against the KD Warriors. That type of team could take down the dream team. The 73-9 team was still one of the greatest teams in NBA history, as evident by their regular season record. The team was absurd and is probably the best (healthy) team to ever lose in the finals. Only dummies consider it a knock on LeBron's legacy for losing to any of those warriors teams in the finals.

I know it fashionable to downplay the 73-9 warriors if you hate LeBron, but let's be honest about it. That was an all time upset - especially considering Kevin Love was either out or completely worthless due to his concussion. That series for LeBron is the greatest performance in finals history when you consider the circumstances.

I could say the opposite, as you and I do about most things, that Lebron partisans exaggerate the quality of the 2016 GSW team to promote Lebron. I of course agree the 2017 GSW team indeed rates with a few other teams including the 72 win Bulls who importantly also won the title as among the greatest teams ever. They don't have the regular season record however, in fact won fewer than 70 games, but are historically the best play-offs team ever, not losing a game before they faced the Cavs, the 2016 team lost 4 or 5 play-off games prior to the finals, and only a miraculous late game flurry from game 6 Klay when all appeared lost stopped them losing in 6 against OKC. They were also far from healthy by the end of the finals that year after running the gauntlet that was the Western Conference play-offs, not the Cavs’ problem of course.

There isn’t any rule against beating a LeBron team with a better team btw.

[michaelm]

This is another example of why I don’t really bother with you anymore. 90% of the time, Jordan fans, and you especially, will go right back to 2011 in a situation where we aren’t even talking about it and incorrectly say LeBron choked, even though he didn’t.

In this case, I state why you’re wrong about 2014 and 2018, and your immediate response is to bring up 2011. And then weirdly enough, you bring up 2015 and try to compare it to the scoring load Jordan played, while conveniently ignoring that LeBron was also the one running the offense, was working with almost no spacing, and was up against a far more advanced defense than anything Jordan ever went up against that wasn’t the bad boy pistons.

Again, people, don’t waste your time with this guy.

Oh and BTW, Jordan doesn’t win in 2011 with that kind of roster.

He vs Scranton Bulls is a dead heat at worst I would have thought , and i obviously prefer the poster who aligns with my opinion of course as it would appear do you. Scranton recently told me that being 35 was different depending on the identity of the player.

You at least post a consistent line of argument, but if bledred is providing selected stats to support his case so are most others. I haven’t seen much argument even from you that LeBron’s case stands on anything other than cumulative stats, “didn’t have enough help” or longevity. Sure he can still put up stats, but not to much purpose imo since the 2020 title. And it is essentially being argued that the guy who was FMVP in 4 title wins after he turned 30, the last at the age of 35, had insufficient longevity, not that 2 titles as FMVP after turning 30 as LeBron managed is anything to sneer at of course.

I would partly put the 2011 loss to LeBron trying to involve the other Heatles too much, he needed to take total charge for that poorly constructed roster to succeed, and duly did so going forward to win 2 titles. I watched the bad last quarter game live in a sports bar (in San Antonio as it happens) and I don’t see how that can be classified as him doing other than disappearing though. He like everyone except Magic needed to learn to win, and Jordan said he needed to do so himself. I am not sufficiently familiar with Jordan’s early career to know whether he had any bad games or series on a similar level to LeBron in the 2011 finals, but he didn’t in either threepeat. And if the Heatles roster was poorly constructed that was at least partly on LeBron.

I

My case for LeBron has always been the following: I truly believe that at the peak of his career, he was a better basketball player than Jordan. I believe he was a better all around player. I always felt LeBron did more with less. And on top of it, I’m far more impressed with him beating legitimately better teams, in some cases doing so in outright carryjobs, compared to Jordan who rarely had that issue to begin with.

I rarely ever involve longevity in it. In most cases, I acknowledge that LeBron has been padding his stats for at least three years now. If there’s one thing I can say I value the longevity aspect for, it’s that if I’m starting a franchise and I have to pick between two players who are very close in talent, I’m picking the one that is elite for longer. To me, LeBron’s longevity accomplishments are more so a cherry on top kind of thing for me, something to add icing to the cake. Sure, longevity does matter, but I tend not to dwell on it.

I have never doubted that LeBron can guard centers better than Jordan or is a better playmaker than Jordan, but how did this benefit his teams ?. Jordan did more than enough for his teams to be successful, so why did he need to do anything else ?.

[ScrantonBulls]

Again, everyone knows the 73 win team was not even the best ever GSW team, which was the 2017 team which has the best play-off record of all time rather than a fairly meaningless regular season record which they achieved partly because they tried so hard to get it, to the eventual detriment of their season outcome. The 2016 team very definitely weren’t the best play-offs team of all time, and it was the 2016 GSW play-offs team that LeBron and the Cavs beat.

No **** they weren't as good as 2017 when the got Durant. They literally added an MVP to the 73-9 team. No team in NBA history stands a chance against the KD Warriors. That type of team could take down the dream team. The 73-9 team was still one of the greatest teams in NBA history, as evident by their regular season record. The team was absurd and is probably the best (healthy) team to ever lose in the finals. Only dummies consider it a knock on LeBron's legacy for losing to any of those warriors teams in the finals.

I know it fashionable to downplay the 73-9 warriors if you hate LeBron, but let's be honest about it. That was an all time upset - especially considering Kevin Love was either out or completely worthless due to his concussion. That series for LeBron is the greatest performance in finals history when you consider the circumstances.

I could say the opposite, as you and I do about most things, that Lebron partisans exaggerate the quality of the 2016 GSW team to promote Lebron. I of course agree the 2017 GSW team indeed rates with a few other teams including the 72 win Bulls who importantly also won the title as among the greatest teams ever. They don't have the regular season record however, in fact won fewer than 70 games, but are historically the best play-offs team ever, not losing a game before they faced the Cavs, the 2016 team lost 4 or 5 play-off games prior to the finals, and only a miraculous late game flurry from game 6 Klay when all appeared lost stopped them losing in 6 against OKC. They were also far from healthy by the end of the finals that year after running the gauntlet that was the Western Conference play-offs, not the Cavs’ problem of course.

There isn’t any rule against beating a LeBron team with a better team btw.

Ah yes, LeBron fans overrate the 2016 GSW in an attempt to make him look better. That whole 73-9 regular season record isn't all that impressive. Any team can do that. They only completely changed how the game is played on offense while having the #1 offense in the league. Those guys were just your run-of-the-mill playoff team.

[michaelm]

It is sad. His new trope is LeBron only having “longevity and cherry picked triple double stats “. He gets embarrased with any actual basketball discussion. Then he calls conspiracy theory on the PC board for pushing an agenda

Nearly every one of my posts has had plenty of stats and evidence while yours have had... longevity stats or nothing

And to be honest, this is why I love these threads. I get a stacked deck of stats that you guys don't have access to. It's ironic- Jordan supporters become the Lebron of this thread!

At the end of the day, you and the select 25 here can believe Lebron is the GOAT, but the rest of the world and posterity knows what's real. And as time goes by, the polls like this only widen the gap. You'll see.
Remember this - 2025 Jordan 3x the votes. We'll return in 3030, then maybe 3035 and so on.

And good point Scranton, 2011 was a tough choke. He just has too many weaknesses.

Watch on YouTube

Here's Silver's opinion... embed won't work so copy paste.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1GC-eK7ohWY[/youtube]

Yours truly, Adam Silver.

Watch on YouTube

Just like the fans, you'll notice those stating "Jordan" actually give clear and obvious reasons.

Empty blanket statements and player opinions are what you call stats and evidence?

While unproven and unprovable individual statistics devised to supposedly measure a player’s contribution to winning apparently mean more than actually winning.

And again if titles are unimportant what was the aim of everything LeBron has done for the last 15 years ?.

[michaelm]

No **** they weren't as good as 2017 when the got Durant. They literally added an MVP to the 73-9 team. No team in NBA history stands a chance against the KD Warriors. That type of team could take down the dream team. The 73-9 team was still one of the greatest teams in NBA history, as evident by their regular season record. The team was absurd and is probably the best (healthy) team to ever lose in the finals. Only dummies consider it a knock on LeBron's legacy for losing to any of those warriors teams in the finals.

I know it fashionable to downplay the 73-9 warriors if you hate LeBron, but let's be honest about it. That was an all time upset - especially considering Kevin Love was either out or completely worthless due to his concussion. That series for LeBron is the greatest performance in finals history when you consider the circumstances.

I could say the opposite, as you and I do about most things, that Lebron partisans exaggerate the quality of the 2016 GSW team to promote Lebron. I of course agree the 2017 GSW team indeed rates with a few other teams including the 72 win Bulls who importantly also won the title as among the greatest teams ever. They don't have the regular season record however, in fact won fewer than 70 games, but are historically the best play-offs team ever, not losing a game before they faced the Cavs, the 2016 team lost 4 or 5 play-off games prior to the finals, and only a miraculous late game flurry from game 6 Klay when all appeared lost stopped them losing in 6 against OKC. They were also far from healthy by the end of the finals that year after running the gauntlet that was the Western Conference play-offs, not the Cavs’ problem of course.

There isn’t any rule against beating a LeBron team with a better team btw.

Ah yes, LeBron fans overrate the 2016 GSW in an attempt to make him look better. That whole 73-9 regular season record isn't all that impressive. Any team can do that. They only completely changed how the game is played on offense while having the #1 offense in the league. Those guys were just your run-of-the-mill playoff team.

Except the team you call invincible and by implication unfair and which has the actual best play-offs record of any team won 67 regular season games. Your point is ?.

[Iwasawitness]

He vs Scranton Bulls is a dead heat at worst I would have thought , and i obviously prefer the poster who aligns with my opinion of course as it would appear do you. Scranton recently told me that being 35 was different depending on the identity of the player.

You at least post a consistent line of argument, but if bledred is providing selected stats to support his case so are most others. I haven’t seen much argument even from you that LeBron’s case stands on anything other than cumulative stats, “didn’t have enough help” or longevity. Sure he can still put up stats, but not to much purpose imo since the 2020 title. And it is essentially being argued that the guy who was FMVP in 4 title wins after he turned 30, the last at the age of 35, had insufficient longevity, not that 2 titles as FMVP after turning 30 as LeBron managed is anything to sneer at of course.

I would partly put the 2011 loss to LeBron trying to involve the other Heatles too much, he needed to take total charge for that poorly constructed roster to succeed, and duly did so going forward to win 2 titles. I watched the bad last quarter game live in a sports bar (in San Antonio as it happens) and I don’t see how that can be classified as him doing other than disappearing though. He like everyone except Magic needed to learn to win, and Jordan said he needed to do so himself. I am not sufficiently familiar with Jordan’s early career to know whether he had any bad games or series on a similar level to LeBron in the 2011 finals, but he didn’t in either threepeat. And if the Heatles roster was poorly constructed that was at least partly on LeBron.

I

My case for LeBron has always been the following: I truly believe that at the peak of his career, he was a better basketball player than Jordan. I believe he was a better all around player. I always felt LeBron did more with less. And on top of it, I’m far more impressed with him beating legitimately better teams, in some cases doing so in outright carryjobs, compared to Jordan who rarely had that issue to begin with.

I rarely ever involve longevity in it. In most cases, I acknowledge that LeBron has been padding his stats for at least three years now. If there’s one thing I can say I value the longevity aspect for, it’s that if I’m starting a franchise and I have to pick between two players who are very close in talent, I’m picking the one that is elite for longer. To me, LeBron’s longevity accomplishments are more so a cherry on top kind of thing for me, something to add icing to the cake. Sure, longevity does matter, but I tend not to dwell on it.

I have never doubted that LeBron can guard centers better than Jordan or is a better playmaker than Jordan, but how did this benefit his teams ?. Jordan did more than enough for his teams to be successful, so why did he need to do anything else ?.

Well for one thing, it allowed LeBron to do more defensively. Being able to play a defensive floater time did wonders for his teams, especially in the first stint Cavaliers days. That’s always going to have more of an impact than what Jordan did. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: Jordan is the best two way player ever, but he could never truly impact that end of the floor the way LeBron did. It isn’t just that he couldn’t guard centers… he could guard almost anyone in his prime. You couldn’t say the same about Jordan.

Better playmaker thing is self explanatory.

Jordan did do more than enough for his teams to win, but let me put it to you this way… LeBron won a championship on three different systems. I don’t think Jordan ever wins one outside of the one he was accustomed to. Jordan’s play style did have its faults. Sure, so did LeBron’s, but then again, those weaknesses were evened out by what Pippen, Grant/Rodman and the triangle brought to the table (whether people want to admit it or not).

[Iwasawitness]

Nearly every one of my posts has had plenty of stats and evidence while yours have had... longevity stats or nothing

And to be honest, this is why I love these threads. I get a stacked deck of stats that you guys don't have access to. It's ironic- Jordan supporters become the Lebron of this thread!

At the end of the day, you and the select 25 here can believe Lebron is the GOAT, but the rest of the world and posterity knows what's real. And as time goes by, the polls like this only widen the gap. You'll see.
Remember this - 2025 Jordan 3x the votes. We'll return in 3030, then maybe 3035 and so on.

And good point Scranton, 2011 was a tough choke. He just has too many weaknesses.

Watch on YouTube

Here's Silver's opinion... embed won't work so copy paste.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1GC-eK7ohWY[/youtube]

Yours truly, Adam Silver.

Watch on YouTube

Just like the fans, you'll notice those stating "Jordan" actually give clear and obvious reasons.

Empty blanket statements and player opinions are what you call stats and evidence?

While unproven and unprovable individual statistics devised to supposedly measure a player’s contribution to winning apparently mean more than actually winning.

And again if titles are unimportant what was the aim of everything LeBron has done for the last 15 years ?.

Who said titles are unimportant?

[Iwasawitness]

Again, everyone knows the 73 win team was not even the best ever GSW team, which was the 2017 team which has the best play-off record of all time rather than a fairly meaningless regular season record which they achieved partly because they tried so hard to get it, to the eventual detriment of their season outcome. The 2016 team very definitely weren’t the best play-offs team of all time, and it was the 2016 GSW play-offs team that LeBron and the Cavs beat.

No **** they weren't as good as 2017 when the got Durant. They literally added an MVP to the 73-9 team. No team in NBA history stands a chance against the KD Warriors. That type of team could take down the dream team. The 73-9 team was still one of the greatest teams in NBA history, as evident by their regular season record. The team was absurd and is probably the best (healthy) team to ever lose in the finals. Only dummies consider it a knock on LeBron's legacy for losing to any of those warriors teams in the finals.

I know it fashionable to downplay the 73-9 warriors if you hate LeBron, but let's be honest about it. That was an all time upset - especially considering Kevin Love was either out or completely worthless due to his concussion. That series for LeBron is the greatest performance in finals history when you consider the circumstances.

I could say the opposite, as you and I do about most things, that Lebron partisans exaggerate the quality of the 2016 GSW team to promote Lebron. I of course agree the 2017 GSW team indeed rates with a few other teams including the 72 win Bulls who importantly also won the title as among the greatest teams ever. They don't have the regular season record however, in fact won fewer than 70 games, but are historically the best play-offs team ever, not losing a game before they faced the Cavs, the 2016 team lost 4 or 5 play-off games prior to the finals, and only a miraculous late game flurry from game 6 Klay when all appeared lost stopped them losing in 6 against OKC. They were also far from healthy by the end of the finals that year after running the gauntlet that was the Western Conference play-offs, not the Cavs’ problem of course.

There isn’t any rule against beating a LeBron team with a better team btw.

I think, if anything, people in general tend to underrate that 2016 Warriors team.

While it is true that Curry was hurt in that series and they had other injuries, people tend to use these points to outright ignore that…

1: Cleveland were without Kevin Love for a good amount of this series due to a concussion.

2. Golden State still had significant matchup advantages as well as greater depth and overall better chemistry. They were still well above Cleveland as a team and there’s a reason they had a 3-1 series lead in the first place, with all three of those wins being in double figures. Hell, Cleveland’s one win just so happened to be in a game where they couldn’t miss against a team that just couldn’t hit anything. LeBron taking his game to another level and Irving dominating in game 5 are the main reasons the series turned around.

People tend to forget this, but that 2016 Cavaliers team had a lot of issues. They were inconsistent defensively, didn’t have good chemistry, were terrible whenever LeBron wasn’t playing, they lacked a consistent playmaker outside of him, they had almost no interior defense… and of course, there is the nonstop drama that plagued them throughout the season.

It’s inaccurate to say that they beat a 73 win team. People are right to say that the warriors were only a 73 win team on paper at that point. But they were still a much better team. And LeBron having a historically dominant finals series to propel his team to victory is always going to get a large amount of well deserved praise.

[michaelm]

My case for LeBron has always been the following: I truly believe that at the peak of his career, he was a better basketball player than Jordan. I believe he was a better all around player. I always felt LeBron did more with less. And on top of it, I’m far more impressed with him beating legitimately better teams, in some cases doing so in outright carryjobs, compared to Jordan who rarely had that issue to begin with.

I rarely ever involve longevity in it. In most cases, I acknowledge that LeBron has been padding his stats for at least three years now. If there’s one thing I can say I value the longevity aspect for, it’s that if I’m starting a franchise and I have to pick between two players who are very close in talent, I’m picking the one that is elite for longer. To me, LeBron’s longevity accomplishments are more so a cherry on top kind of thing for me, something to add icing to the cake. Sure, longevity does matter, but I tend not to dwell on it.

I have never doubted that LeBron can guard centers better than Jordan or is a better playmaker than Jordan, but how did this benefit his teams ?. Jordan did more than enough for his teams to be successful, so why did he need to do anything else ?.

Well for one thing, it allowed LeBron to do more defensively. Being able to play a defensive floater time did wonders for his teams, especially in the first stint Cavaliers days. That’s always going to have more of an impact than what Jordan did. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: Jordan is the best two way player ever, but he could never truly impact that end of the floor the way LeBron did. It isn’t just that he couldn’t guard centers… he could guard almost anyone in his prime. You couldn’t say the same about Jordan.

Better playmaker thing is self explanatory.

Jordan did do more than enough for his teams to win, but let me put it to you this way… LeBron won a championship on three different systems. I don’t think Jordan ever wins one outside of the one he was accustomed to. Jordan’s play style did have its faults. Sure, so did LeBron’s, but then again, those weaknesses were evened out by what Pippen, Grant/Rodman and the triangle brought to the table (whether people want to admit it or not).

Again, all you have is hypotheticals.