Shams: Raps acquire Ingram for Brown + Olynyk + IND 1st

[tsherkin]

I agree entirely, that's why I have faith in them to handle high draft picks much better than other FOs, and it's why I value those picks so highly. If we were the Hornets, I'd be on board for an Ingram level trade, because they aren't exactly drafting powerhouses, you gotta play to your strengths, and drafting is ours.

We've done all right, for sure.

We're in that awful period where all we can do is wonder and wait now, so it's lots of "well, we'll see how it goes."

At least this year, there seems to be a good deal of compelling talent near the top, so if we don't get completely screwed over, we should walk away with someone interesting. No guarantees on whether or not they hold up, obviously, but at least the chance.

[dTox]

Ingram part starts at 45:08

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7xnSVQG1UjyFYdcGdDLvE7?si=RpGns8nuTNSbY6zFEXt39A

[StopitLeo]

Ingram part starts at 45:08

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7xnSVQG1UjyFYdcGdDLvE7?si=RpGns8nuTNSbY6zFEXt39A

Thanks for posting.

Same superficial takes as many others who dislike the trade: don't like the fit with Barnes because they operate in the same area, will require a big contract, often injured, doesn't share the ball, should have just kept Siakam.

[nikster]

I'd say BI is about average for a 2nd overall pick, possibly above average. He's likely better than the 8 2nd overall picks before him (guys like Jabari Parker, Evans Turner, thabeet, d Angelo russell, MKG) You've got Marvin Bagley, Lonzo ball and Wiseman since. Hard to say if Jalen Green will really be better.

I'd say he's pretty far above average. Going back to 2000, and ignoring the past three (to early to tell on Sarr, Chet & Miller), you have Ja, Durant and Aldridge who are clearly above (although it's not crazy that he'd have a better career than Aldridge). Similar would be Chandler and Green. He's definitely above Wiseman, Ball, Ingram, Russell, Parker, MKG, Williams, Turner, Thabeet, Beasley, Williams, Okafor, Darko, Williams.

So in the top 6 for sure, which is quite good, one of the bets #2 picks in the past twenty years.

Average 2nd picks have projected win shares in the mid to high 60's, and make multiple ASGs. BI in 9 seasons has 27.3 winshares, and 1 ASG 6 years ago, so unless he plans on playing another 10-15 years, he's going to underperform relative to the average 2nd pick.

Had he been healthy, maybe it would look a lot rosier, but he hasn't been, so it doesn't matter.

https://medium.com/@burakcankoc/what-are-the-odds-to-become-an-all-star-for-each-draft-pick-2d113d6b82e5

This shows that since 1989 only 40% of 2nd overall picks make an all star game. BI already has made one so he is in that category. I don't know where you get the idea that the average 2nd pick has multiple all stars selections

[NinjaBro]

Ingram part starts at 45:08

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7xnSVQG1UjyFYdcGdDLvE7?si=RpGns8nuTNSbY6zFEXt39A

Thanks for posting.

Same superficial takes as many others who dislike the trade: don't like the fit with Barnes because they operate in the same area, will require a big contract, often injured, doesn't share the ball, should have just kept Siakam.

Eh that sounds like takes from this forum.

[Courtside]

I agree entirely, that's why I have faith in them to handle high draft picks much better than other FOs, and it's why I value those picks so highly. If we were the Hornets, I'd be on board for an Ingram level trade, because they aren't exactly drafting powerhouses, you gotta play to your strengths, and drafting is ours.

We've done all right, for sure.

We're in that awful period where all we can do is wonder and wait now, so it's lots of "well, we'll see how it goes."

At least this year, there seems to be a good deal of compelling talent near the top, so if we don't get completely screwed over, we should walk away with someone interesting. No guarantees on whether or not they hold up, obviously, but at least the chance.

It's not simply a question of "are we good at drafting?". That answer has been well proven.

Other questions to ask:

Are we a destination for higher profile agents? (mostly no)

Are we good at re-signing our own free agents? (mostly yes)

Are we trying to win this season? (no)

Are we in talent, development and asset acquisition mode? (yes)

Are wr good at making trades? (generally yes, but the opinion on each trade will vary depending on the other questions above and how much they factor in to the deal.

With all that said, and with what both Bobby and Masai have said quite clearly, the team's MO is rather obvious when it comes to asset building... be opportunists both with the draft, with trades, and with taking flyers on underrated or undrafted players. We do well when we lean into these skills, so it's no suprise they tried to buy low with Ingram, get our medical and training staff to work with him, and then sign him to a lower than open market value because there isn't much of a FA market.

Ingram is better than anyone we could sign via FA. Kahwi was more proven when we took that similar sort of risk, and while he did leave after, we certainly won that transaction handily on the way to a title. It should be noted he hasn't won **** since and hasn't been healthy either, so I think aside from maybe trying for a repeat, we're better off not having him. Losing him for nothing hurt in terms of no asset value coming back, but we won a damn championship, so that's sort of a wash to me.

People wondering why we make risky or questionable trades do so because they don't have (or don't want) answers for all those questions I asked above, but they matter. As a franchise, we can't operate in the same way that the legacy teams do, or even the 2nd tier US team, who will often still have weather, tax, or family advantages.

Remember when Durant was demanding out of BKN and everyone kept including the Raptors because of out plethora of tradeable assets? That's what we're building back here, but also a more complete and competitive roster right out to the 12th man. This way if there is a superstar trade that becomes available, it's actually worth doing because it won't prevent the team from being able to win because there is still enough talent to surround that guy with. The Kawhi trade worked because the rest of the roster was worthy of supporting that star, the trade for Durant would not have been (never mind the age and salary, which were also huge red flags).

And if you don't get that trade, then you're still a good, entertaining playoff team who with the right chemistry, teamwork and a little bit of luck, could make a run. Once you're there, you get the filler pieces who ring chase with better teams. You need all of these things to win, as no team who has bottomed out for lottery picks for several consecutive years has ever won a title with those players. Making those picks yourself isn't necessary to eventually having those players. If you're a team with a low rep due to consecutive bad or tamking seasons, that stink of losing doesn't go away and those good players you draft generally end up either bailing on you, or mailing it in.

The front office is doing what's best for this market and the peculiarities we have to deal with. That's really all there is to it.

[Scase]

I'd say he's pretty far above average. Going back to 2000, and ignoring the past three (to early to tell on Sarr, Chet & Miller), you have Ja, Durant and Aldridge who are clearly above (although it's not crazy that he'd have a better career than Aldridge). Similar would be Chandler and Green. He's definitely above Wiseman, Ball, Ingram, Russell, Parker, MKG, Williams, Turner, Thabeet, Beasley, Williams, Okafor, Darko, Williams.

So in the top 6 for sure, which is quite good, one of the bets #2 picks in the past twenty years.

Average 2nd picks have projected win shares in the mid to high 60's, and make multiple ASGs. BI in 9 seasons has 27.3 winshares, and 1 ASG 6 years ago, so unless he plans on playing another 10-15 years, he's going to underperform relative to the average 2nd pick.

Had he been healthy, maybe it would look a lot rosier, but he hasn't been, so it doesn't matter.

https://medium.com/@burakcankoc/what-are-the-odds-to-become-an-all-star-for-each-draft-pick-2d113d6b82e5

This shows that since 1989 only 40% of 2nd overall picks make an all star game. BI already has made one so he is in that category. I don't know where you get the idea that the average 2nd pick has multiple all stars selections

I've posted it elsewhere on the forums, there's also a breakdown on the rate at which players make more than 1 ASG based on their draft slot, and it shows a large portion of them getting more than 1. Can't for the life of me find it though.

[agkagk]

I agree entirely, that's why I have faith in them to handle high draft picks much better than other FOs, and it's why I value those picks so highly. If we were the Hornets, I'd be on board for an Ingram level trade, because they aren't exactly drafting powerhouses, you gotta play to your strengths, and drafting is ours.

We've done all right, for sure.

We're in that awful period where all we can do is wonder and wait now, so it's lots of "well, we'll see how it goes."

At least this year, there seems to be a good deal of compelling talent near the top, so if we don't get completely screwed over, we should walk away with someone interesting. No guarantees on whether or not they hold up, obviously, but at least the chance.

It's not simply a question of "are we good at drafting?". That answer has been well proven.

Other questions to ask:

Are we a destination for higher profile agents? (mostly no)

Are we good at re-signing our own free agents? (mostly yes)

Are we trying to win this season? (no)

Are we in talent, development and asset acquisition mode? (yes)

Are wr good at making trades? (generally yes, but the opinion on each trade will vary depending on the other questions above and how much they factor in to the deal.

With all that said, and with what both Bobby and Masai have said quite clearly, the team's MO is rather obvious when it comes to asset building... be opportunists both with the draft, with trades, and with taking flyers on underrated or undrafted players. We do well when we lean into these skills, so it's no suprise they tried to buy low with Ingram, get our medical and training staff to work with him, and then sign him to a lower than open market value because there isn't much of a FA market.

Ingram is better than anyone we could sign via FA. Kahwi was more proven when we took that similar sort of risk, and while he did leave after, we certainly won that transaction handily on the way to a title. It should be noted he hasn't won **** since and hasn't been healthy either, so I think aside from maybe trying for a repeat, we're better off not having him. Losing him for nothing hurt in terms of no asset value coming back, but we won a damn championship, so that's sort of a wash to me.

People wondering why we make risky or questionable trades do so because they don't have (or don't want) answers for all those questions I asked above, but they matter. As a franchise, we can't operate in the same way that the legacy teams do, or even the 2nd tier US team, who will often still have weather, tax, or family advantages.

Remember when Durant was demanding out of BKN and everyone kept including the Raptors because of out plethora of tradeable assets? That's what we're building back here, but also a more complete and competitive roster right out to the 12th man. This way if there is a superstar trade that becomes available, it's actually worth doing because it won't prevent the team from being able to win because there is still enough talent to surround that guy with. The Kawhi trade worked because the rest of the roster was worthy of supporting that star, the trade for Durant would not have been (never mind the age and salary, which were also huge red flags).

And if you don't get that trade, then you're still a good, entertaining playoff team who with the right chemistry, teamwork and a little bit of luck, could make a run. Once you're there, you get the filler pieces who ring chase with better teams. You need all of these things to win, as no team who has bottomed out for lottery picks for several consecutive years has ever won a title with those players. Making those picks yourself isn't necessary to eventually having those players. If you're a team with a low rep due to consecutive bad or tamking seasons, that stink of losing doesn't go away and those good players you draft generally end up either bailing on you, or mailing it in.

The front office is doing what's best for this market and the peculiarities we have to deal with. That's really all there is to it.

Yep can we get Ingram into 70 games next year?

If so; we can basically trade for any star player that plays any position and roll

Ingram and rj for Giannis? Sure!

Rj, acbaji and change for Donovan Mitchell? Not a problem!


Etc etc etc….

[ill-Will03]

Ingram part starts at 45:08

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7xnSVQG1UjyFYdcGdDLvE7?si=RpGns8nuTNSbY6zFEXt39A

Thanks for posting.

Same superficial takes as many others who dislike the trade: don't like the fit with Barnes because they operate in the same area, will require a big contract, often injured, doesn't share the ball, should have just kept Siakam.

not sure i seen the 'many others who dislike the trade' around here. For the most part its been a pretty positive outlook on the trade. Even the grade the trade thread has been mostly positive.

[NinjaBro]

Ingram part starts at 45:08

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7xnSVQG1UjyFYdcGdDLvE7?si=RpGns8nuTNSbY6zFEXt39A

Thanks for posting.

Same superficial takes as many others who dislike the trade: don't like the fit with Barnes because they operate in the same area, will require a big contract, often injured, doesn't share the ball, should have just kept Siakam.

not sure i seen the 'many others who dislike the trade' around here. For the most part its been a pretty positive outlook on the trade. Even the grade the trade thread has been mostly positive.

The "many others" he talking about hangs out in the tWo thread

[The Laker Kid]

As a Laker fan, I miss Ingram. You might think he's high all the time, but he's an OG and defends his teammates when it matters. Plus he punched CP3 and Harden so he's always good in my book Raptors nation will love him.

[nikster]

Average 2nd picks have projected win shares in the mid to high 60's, and make multiple ASGs. BI in 9 seasons has 27.3 winshares, and 1 ASG 6 years ago, so unless he plans on playing another 10-15 years, he's going to underperform relative to the average 2nd pick.

Had he been healthy, maybe it would look a lot rosier, but he hasn't been, so it doesn't matter.

https://medium.com/@burakcankoc/what-are-the-odds-to-become-an-all-star-for-each-draft-pick-2d113d6b82e5

This shows that since 1989 only 40% of 2nd overall picks make an all star game. BI already has made one so he is in that category. I don't know where you get the idea that the average 2nd pick has multiple all stars selections

I've posted it elsewhere on the forums, there's also a breakdown on the rate at which players make more than 1 ASG based on their draft slot, and it shows a large portion of them getting more than 1. Can't for the life of me find it though.

Looking at the list i don't see how that happens unless it's looking at total number of all star games from the draft slot. Like Kevin Durant has 15, which would massively bump the amount of all star games per #2 pick, but that is meaningless in determining what the average player in that pick range produces

[Son Goku 25]

I keep thinking the guy that will be traded is IQ. He will have value in the league & if the Raps have the opportunity to trade for a legit two way PG, they may have to pull the trigger in order to take this team to next level.

U need his playmaking and shooting, he’s our best 3 point shooter. RJ is the most expendable because we have enough scoring with Ingram added

Also iq can defend, RJ not so much

I feel like IQ's defense get's overrated for me. It just doesn't pass the eye test. He get's muscled easily. He could make up by it with having quick feet but he's not as agile laterally as I would expect from someone his size. He get's blown by way too much.

Correct. He's soft AF and isn't as quick as I thought he'd be. He's a good shooter though.

[Scase]

https://medium.com/@burakcankoc/what-are-the-odds-to-become-an-all-star-for-each-draft-pick-2d113d6b82e5

This shows that since 1989 only 40% of 2nd overall picks make an all star game. BI already has made one so he is in that category. I don't know where you get the idea that the average 2nd pick has multiple all stars selections

I've posted it elsewhere on the forums, there's also a breakdown on the rate at which players make more than 1 ASG based on their draft slot, and it shows a large portion of them getting more than 1. Can't for the life of me find it though.

Looking at the list i don't see how that happens unless it's looking at total number of all star games from the draft slot. Like Kevin Durant has 15, which would massively bump the amount of all star games per #2 pick, but that is meaningless in determining what the average player in that pick range produces

It's an average, that's literally what an average is for, it accounts for the extremes on both ends.

[StopitLeo]

Ingram part starts at 45:08

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7xnSVQG1UjyFYdcGdDLvE7?si=RpGns8nuTNSbY6zFEXt39A

Thanks for posting.

Same superficial takes as many others who dislike the trade: don't like the fit with Barnes because they operate in the same area, will require a big contract, often injured, doesn't share the ball, should have just kept Siakam.

not sure i seen the 'many others who dislike the trade' around here. For the most part its been a pretty positive outlook on the trade. Even the grade the trade thread has been mostly positive.

I was referring more to media and pundits.

[Courtside]

I've posted it elsewhere on the forums, there's also a breakdown on the rate at which players make more than 1 ASG based on their draft slot, and it shows a large portion of them getting more than 1. Can't for the life of me find it though.

Looking at the list i don't see how that happens unless it's looking at total number of all star games from the draft slot. Like Kevin Durant has 15, which would massively bump the amount of all star games per #2 pick, but that is meaningless in determining what the average player in that pick range produces

It's an average, that's literally what an average is for, it accounts for the extremes on both ends.

You're talking about averages while including Kevin Durant, who is anything but average, in a discussion trying to figure out expected results from that draft position. There's a difference in there that you don't want to allow room for because it undercuts your argument. You're not wrong, but you are arguing a different thing.

MEDIAN is the term and tool that I think works best here, as it does a much better job of accounting for the extremes at both ends, and more accurately illustrates the actual results.

[nikster]

I've posted it elsewhere on the forums, there's also a breakdown on the rate at which players make more than 1 ASG based on their draft slot, and it shows a large portion of them getting more than 1. Can't for the life of me find it though.

Looking at the list i don't see how that happens unless it's looking at total number of all star games from the draft slot. Like Kevin Durant has 15, which would massively bump the amount of all star games per #2 pick, but that is meaningless in determining what the average player in that pick range produces

It's an average, that's literally what an average is for, it accounts for the extremes on both ends.

Except the lowest # of all star games a player can have is zero, which 60% of selections have, while someone like Durant can have 15. The extremes only go one way which makes average # of all star selections particularly useless for talking about expected production from that pick.

https://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

Here is a 20 year sample that shows the average 2nd overall pick averages 13/6/3.

[LoveMyRaps]

It's crazy that such a big acquisition happened, and we never stickied the thread.

[Boardbreaker]

It's crazy that such a big acquisition happened, and we never stickied the thread.

Servers likely would have imploded

[Hottie McShotty]

Watch on YouTube