What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA

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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#41 » by tsherkin » Sat Feb 8, 2025 4:28 pm

Big J wrote:True, people spread fake news all the time, and a lot of times they get huge ratings for doing it. At least in this case it's just basketball related. Nowadays it's up to the consumer to figure out what's real and what's not.


Right, but the consumer in the context of sports has no grounding in the sport. The average fan knows comparatively little about how the game actually works or how teams other than their home team functions, so they are poorly-positioned to determine fact from fiction. Paradoxically, they remain the loudest voice out there, which is problematic.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#42 » by The Master » Sat Feb 8, 2025 4:49 pm

Excellent video.

I'm from Europe and I am a huge sports geek in general - so I've been following not only NBA and NFL, but also soccer, volleyball, handball, plenty of different team sports across the board - and from comparative perspective, I don't think there's another sport where people can't acknowledge an objective development of the game. I wish someone made a survey about preferences among American and non-American fans, because I am pretty confident that among the latter an overall satisfaction from following the NBA would be much higher on average, and yeah, it can be explained by the zenith of international basketball, but also shows it's more about psycho- or/and sociological perspective than efforts to objectify the whole narrative based on e.g. 'too many 3s' arguments. For example, all over Twitter you can read how Shai is a free throw merchant padding his stats thanks to the enormous number of free throws - and then it turns out that he's shooting them less frequently than MVP Kobe Bryant in his best years or Allen Iverson. And while I don't necessarily think that people should be told what to think - these are narratives that would be put to sleep with decent NBA and media coverage. In reality, videos such as this by @ElGee are a niche of popular NBA geeks in some circles, not necessarily hitting mainstream (even if Thinking Basketball project has plenty of followers).
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#43 » by Nate505 » Sat Feb 8, 2025 4:51 pm

Jacking up 30-50 3s a game makes for terrible basketball. I don't care if it comes from complex offenses or defenses or not.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#44 » by The Master » Sat Feb 8, 2025 5:02 pm

Nate505 wrote:I don't care if it comes from complex offenses or defenses or not.
... and this video is not about convincing you to think otherwise. After all, 'I don't like contemporary basketball, **** ***', is a genuine stance that I can appreciate in a way - convincing people that we don't see gifted passers anymore or there's no defense is just lack of understanding (or bad faith) in analysis of what we've been witnessing, and the video addresses that.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#45 » by Yoshun » Sat Feb 8, 2025 5:11 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Yoshun wrote:This is all true, but I also want to add that "new" and "more complex" don't necessarily mean a more exciting game.

Honestly, when games turn into a 3-point fest, it can be hard to watch, just as hard to watch as when 90's games would turn into the WWE or grind to a halt in isolation.


That's sort of the point, though. Who you're watching matters. If you watch some random game between the expansion Raptors and the Clippers from that same year, you aren't going to have a good time. If you watched some of the Orlando-Chicago games that same season, you get a whole different situation.


I hadn't heard that point made yet, but I obviously agree.

Old guys are old guys, their way is better, the new generation ruined the game, etc..

I don't think anyone who watches basketball regularly actually agrees with them.

That said, ratings are obviously down. I'm not saying it's the game play itself, but something's is amiss and it gives these guys an excuse.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#46 » by JonFromVA » Sat Feb 8, 2025 5:16 pm

Random thought: The camera and our eyes tend to focus on the ball handler. I find I often have to make an effort to notice all the cuts and screens going on around the ball handler that results in an open 3 or a layup, etc.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#47 » by tsherkin » Sat Feb 8, 2025 5:19 pm

Yoshun wrote:Old guys are old guys, their way is better, the new generation ruined the game, etc..


And of course the reverse is true as well. The new generation loves their version, is accustomed to it, etc, etc. It's an ageless issue with generation gap. I don't want to piss on the old game, because I had a blast watching 80s and 90s basketball myself, right? But there are things to be taken away from those earlier days, and today's game is itself a response to adaptation and changes over time which are only possible because of those previous periods.

That said, ratings are obviously down. I'm not saying it's the game play itself, but something's is amiss and it gives these guys an excuse.


Yeah, but like, there's a lot of exposure to different things to capture people's attention. TV obviously isn't as awesome as it used to be. NBATV sucks ass and is dumb. Paywalls hide access to things, so people stream more. There are many reasons ratings are down. It isn't the 90s; people have more things to do than be entranced by Michael Jordan doing a lot of stuff they'd never seen before, right? Not all sports captivate the populace as much as they used to. Doesn't mean they shouldn't try things, but as you say, it's just an excuse for people to crap on the current product.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#48 » by Special_Puppy » Sat Feb 8, 2025 5:21 pm

Nate505 wrote:Jacking up 30-50 3s a game makes for terrible basketball. I don't care if it comes from complex offenses or defenses or not.


People are just substituting long 2s for long 3s
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#49 » by LockoutSeason » Sat Feb 8, 2025 5:36 pm

‘90s players should just stop talking about basketball altogether. All they’re going to do is embarrass themselves and ruin their legacy.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#50 » by Nate505 » Sat Feb 8, 2025 5:44 pm

Special_Puppy wrote:
Nate505 wrote:Jacking up 30-50 3s a game makes for terrible basketball. I don't care if it comes from complex offenses or defenses or not.


People are just substituting long 2s for long 3s


Yes, and that makes it more terrible. Mostly in terms of scoring variance (games are bigger blowouts now by far than they used to be), and in terms of just the predictability just as a viewer. When I see a pick and roll, I know that the shot will either be a layup or the guy will be looking to pass it to a guy to shoot a 3.

From a less tangible point, the shot has been devalued in terms of it being special. In the dinosaur ages, it was an exciting shot. Now it's about as run of the mill as it gets.

Just my opinion though. I do think there are people who love the modern style of basketball. Not me, but it's mostly because of the 3 point shot. It's just too easy for these guys.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#51 » by tsherkin » Sat Feb 8, 2025 6:15 pm

Special_Puppy wrote:
Nate505 wrote:Jacking up 30-50 3s a game makes for terrible basketball. I don't care if it comes from complex offenses or defenses or not.


People are just substituting long 2s for long 3s


Yeah, whining about the shift from long 2s to 3s has never made sense to me. They are aesthetically the same.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#52 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Feb 8, 2025 6:35 pm

BigDan245 wrote:


So I just want to emphasize how important the critical ideas of this video are - particularly because I see some people responding as if they're bored by this:

1. It's a huge problem that so many of the talking heads - many of them former players - are focusing on simple, cynical narratives right at a time when the strategy of the game is exploding in an arms race.

2. This doesn't mean everyone has to love the strategic arms race, but it's what's happening - NBA coaching staffs aren't going to stop now no matter what rule changes come in the future - and so it's what needs to be communicated if the fans are going to understand and appreciate what's happening.

3. I see some people who are polarized against the video because of the thumbnail, etc. Listen, I get it, but what I would say for me - and it surely applies to many here - is that most basketball fans are not like me, and so a thumbnail tailored toward exciting me just doesn't appeal to that many people.

What I can say, as one of the long-term basketball nerds of the internet, is that the insights of this video are quite serious, and that I learn a great deal from Thinking Basketball videos in a way I don't with much else on the internet.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#53 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Feb 8, 2025 6:59 pm

JonFromVA wrote:Random thought: The camera and our eyes tend to focus on the ball handler. I find I often have to make an effort to notice all the cuts and screens going on around the ball handler that results in an open 3 or a layup, etc.


Yup. This has always been an issue for basketball fans because much of the complexity of the possession happens where the ball isn't, but the eye focuses on the ball.

And now the issue is worse specifically because, as mentioned in the video, so much of what you need to be paying attention to in order to understand what's going on happens early in the possession, while highlights culture tends to focus in on the end of the play. Hence it's not just about the human tendency to ball-watch, it's about the habit of only focusing your attention when a shot is about to happen.

I'd draw a comparison to gridiron football. Because of the start-stop nature of football, a casual watch gives you time to rest your attention in between plays. I'd argue that casual basketball viewing has a similar habit, and that this is a bigger and bigger problem the more strategy goes into the possession in the time before the shot.

The viewers in general shouldn't be blamed for this - it should be the expectation that viewers need help in understanding what's going on there.

The maddening part is that these former players are not only not helping viewers in this regard, but are cynically trying to bash what's happening in a way that glorifies their own era. They are doing this in no small part because they themselves never had to develop the study habits they now need to keep up with the evolution of the game, and this cynical approach allows them to puff themselves up rather than admitting they've been left behind, but of course their egotistical reasons aren't the really damaging thing.

The damaging thing is that quite literally prior eras of the NBA don't actually benefit in any serious way from this approach. It's not like there's X amount of basketball dollars, and them doing this just brings more dollars to the past. No, all these guys are doing is tearing down the current NBA, which then erodes the future perception of the NBA.

Now, I don't want to talk like I'm super-worried about this, because frankly I think the globalization of the game is unstoppable, and that globalization will bring in plenty of money in the long-term.

But American ESPN and these American former players are damaging American basketball with every hot take they fart out, and that's just sad and pathetic. The Shaqs and Pierces of the world should be embarrassed that they are doing this to the sport which is the only reason they were ever special.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#54 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Feb 8, 2025 7:15 pm

Nate505 wrote:
Special_Puppy wrote:
Nate505 wrote:Jacking up 30-50 3s a game makes for terrible basketball. I don't care if it comes from complex offenses or defenses or not.


People are just substituting long 2s for long 3s


Yes, and that makes it more terrible. Mostly in terms of scoring variance (games are bigger blowouts now by far than they used to be), and in terms of just the predictability just as a viewer. When I see a pick and roll, I know that the shot will either be a layup or the guy will be looking to pass it to a guy to shoot a 3.

From a less tangible point, the shot has been devalued in terms of it being special. In the dinosaur ages, it was an exciting shot. Now it's about as run of the mill as it gets.

Just my opinion though. I do think there are people who love the modern style of basketball. Not me, but it's mostly because of the 3 point shot. It's just too easy for these guys.


So let me first say: It's completely fine for you to enjoy whatever you enjoy. Absolutely no reason you have to enjoy the modern game, and I'm with others who've said that I find there to be something beautiful about all the prior eras of basketball.

That said:

1. There are bigger blowouts...but there are also bigger comebacks, and for precisely the same reason. If a 20 point lead is making people tune out I get it, but it's just worth noting that a 20 point lead doesn't mean what it used to mean, and this type of change isn't a new thing. The deeper in history you go, the smaller the absolute scale of "big leads".

2. Pick & roll means the shot will be... Well except, that possessions tend to have many picks and cuts in sequence as the offense tries to shake the defense. When you see one of them in real time, there's generally no reason to think you know how what's left in the possession. On the other hand, if you watch a highlight, then that pick & roll you're watching is probably the second to last thing in the possession, which means most of the unpredictability of the possession has already played out.

Re: 3-point shot used to be special, now run of the mill. I understand feeling like that, but I could also say:

The 3-point shot used to be a bad shot because guys were amateurs at it who never really spent time developing that skill.
Now they practice it, they have the skill, and it's not a bad shot.

Yes there's something special about a guy making a super-low probability shot, but we should just keep in mind here is that the players have simply worked harder at developing a skill, and so it kinda sucks to say "I only like you doing that before because you lacked the skill to do it right. Your efforts to improve this basketball skill has made me find your success boring."
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#55 » by og15 » Sat Feb 8, 2025 7:23 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Special_Puppy wrote:
Nate505 wrote:Jacking up 30-50 3s a game makes for terrible basketball. I don't care if it comes from complex offenses or defenses or not.


People are just substituting long 2s for long 3s


Yeah, whining about the shift from long 2s to 3s has never made sense to me. They are aesthetically the same.

Mostly, I think there are some prettier long two's that you can take than three's


JonFromVA wrote:Random thought: The camera and our eyes tend to focus on the ball handler. I find I often have to make an effort to notice all the cuts and screens going on around the ball handler that results in an open 3 or a layup, etc.
100%. I made this a habit to force myself as much as possible to watch off the ball both offensively and defensively some years back, and I started to sen in game threads with other Clippers fans that it makes what I'm seeing totally different from what some people are seeing.

It's hard though because you have to consciously remind yourself, and sometimes when I'm just trying to casually enjoy a game among other things going on, I'll do less of that.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#56 » by tsherkin » Sat Feb 8, 2025 7:25 pm

og15 wrote:Mostly, I think there are some prettier long two's that you can take than three's


Can't say I've ever seen one that was, personally. Closer in, on the other hand, that's something else. But there are tons of guys who still shoot a bunch from there.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#57 » by og15 » Sat Feb 8, 2025 7:32 pm

tsherkin wrote:
og15 wrote:Mostly, I think there are some prettier long two's that you can take than three's


Can't say I've ever seen one that was, personally. Closer in, on the other hand, that's something else. But there are tons of guys who still shoot a bunch from there.

That's fair lol
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#58 » by bledredwine » Sat Feb 8, 2025 8:20 pm

Klomp wrote:"We used to play defense in the all-star game"



You need to watch the 87’ allstar game. Makes bball now look like a joke. Hilarious that some posters ignore rule changes and the outcomes when the commissioner himself stated they wanted more accessible scoring.
LeBron has a 17.8% field goal percentage and a 12.5% 3-point percentage in clutch situations, and also made 20 of 116 game winning/tying shots in 4th/OT during his career :wink:
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#59 » by NbaAllDay » Sat Feb 8, 2025 10:39 pm

bledredwine wrote:
Klomp wrote:"We used to play defense in the all-star game"



You need to watch the 87’ allstar game. Makes bball now look like a joke. Hilarious that some posters ignore rule changes and the outcomes when the commissioner himself stated they wanted more accessible scoring.


No one is ignoring rule changes, it's just not the be all end all reason for the difference in game between eras. Some like to think this because they can hand waive the bigger more impactful reasons for the game changing.

Even if it was purely based on rules, if the game is different, it's different...and old heads explain these differences poorly and often wrong.

Some even go as far as using the all star game as a means of comparison and well, we all know why that's a little laughable don't we, but good faith arguments aren't for everyone.
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Re: What former players get completely WRONG about today's NBA 

Post#60 » by 70sFan » Sat Feb 8, 2025 10:39 pm

bledredwine wrote:You need to watch the 87’ allstar game. Makes bball now look like a joke. Hilarious that some posters ignore rule changes and the outcomes when the commissioner himself stated they wanted more accessible scoring.

Have you watched the video from OP?

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