RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Homer38]

Lebron factory? Lol come on man

He is not wrong....

Did Cleveland play a team like Birds Celtics or the Bad Boy Pistons in the east to make it to the finals? What juggernaut did they face in the east in 07?

No they were still 50-32 record and were considered as a long shot to beat detroit in 2007

Also when you are 40-42 or 30-52( yes the Bulls make the playoffs with this record ) and you are in the playoffs,of course good chance your team will face powerhouse in the first round

[MavsDirk41]

He is not wrong....

Did Cleveland play a team like Birds Celtics or the Bad Boy Pistons in the east to make it to the finals? What juggernaut did they face in the east in 07?

No they were still 50-32 record and were considered as a long shot to beat detroit in 2007

Also when you are 40-42 or 30-52( yes the Bulls make the playoffs with this record ) and you are in the playoffs,of course good chance your team will face powerhouse in the first round

Doesn’t answer my question. What powerhouse team did they face? Anything comparable to Birds Celtics or the Bad Boy Pistons? Im not saying what he did wasn’t impressive but there wasnt a dynasty comparable to Birds Celtics or the Bad Boy Pistons. You would have had to have watched those teams to truly understand their greatness.

[Iwasawitness]

Why?

What did Irving accomplish before playing with LeBron? What did Kevin Love accomplish? I don’t even think Chris Bosh won a playoff series before playing for the Heat, same can be said for Anthony Davis. Can you provide any proof that they wouldn’t have stayed perineal losers without LeBron?

Dwayne Wade is the only one who LeBron joined up with who had any meaningful accomplishments. But then again, this is using your logic. In reality, if we want to go by what you’re asking, Dennis Rodman was coming off a first team all defensive selection and led the league in rebounding prior to being traded to the Bulls. But for some reason, you’re framing it as if he wasn’t an incredibly high impactful player.

So it evens out at that point.

I would never say Rodman wasn’t pivotal to the Bulls second 3 peat, he obviously was. But, Rodman only played 49 games in San Antonio and he clashed with the coaching staff and players. They were done with his antics. Rodman was seen as a cancer by the Spurs and from many within the nba.

My point is James won with established talent while, other than Rodman, Jordan didnt.

By the time Jordan won his first championship, Pippen was already an all star and had already made an all defensive team. He was an established talent.

And Rodman wasn’t wanted by the Spurs. I get that. There are a few times at the time who wouldn’t have bothered with him. I can’t debate that. But I take issue with this idea that no one wanted him. Teams absolutely would have wanted the best rebounder who is also an elite defender at the time on their team.

[Homer38]

Did Cleveland play a team like Birds Celtics or the Bad Boy Pistons in the east to make it to the finals? What juggernaut did they face in the east in 07?

No they were still 50-32 record and were considered as a long shot to beat detroit in 2007

Also when you are 40-42 or 30-52( yes the Bulls make the playoffs with this record ) and you are in the playoffs,of course good chance your team will face powerhouse in the first round

Doesn’t answer my question. What powerhouse team did they face? Anything comparable to Birds Celtics or the Bad Boy Pistons? Im not saying what he did wasn’t impressive but there wasnt a dynasty comparable to Birds Celtics or the Bad Boy Pistons. You would have had to have watched those teams to truly understand their greatness.

Spurs,not a dynasty?....They had won more titles that the celtics in the 1980s after 2007....I know the cavs did not win a single playoffs game vs spurs but the Bulls face the celtics in the first round because of their poor regular season record.....

Biggest problem for the bulls was not they lost to the celtics but rather they didn't have a winning season when they face the celtics....The cavs had a 50-32 record so usually you don't play against a powerhouse like that in the first round with a record like that...Yes the cavs playoff run wasn't the hardest but they also didn't lose to a 42-40 type team like the mavs in the same year!

[MavsDirk41]

What did Irving accomplish before playing with LeBron? What did Kevin Love accomplish? I don’t even think Chris Bosh won a playoff series before playing for the Heat, same can be said for Anthony Davis. Can you provide any proof that they wouldn’t have stayed perineal losers without LeBron?

Dwayne Wade is the only one who LeBron joined up with who had any meaningful accomplishments. But then again, this is using your logic. In reality, if we want to go by what you’re asking, Dennis Rodman was coming off a first team all defensive selection and led the league in rebounding prior to being traded to the Bulls. But for some reason, you’re framing it as if he wasn’t an incredibly high impactful player.

So it evens out at that point.

I would never say Rodman wasn’t pivotal to the Bulls second 3 peat, he obviously was. But, Rodman only played 49 games in San Antonio and he clashed with the coaching staff and players. They were done with his antics. Rodman was seen as a cancer by the Spurs and from many within the nba.

My point is James won with established talent while, other than Rodman, Jordan didnt.

By the time Jordan won his first championship, Pippen was already an all star and had already made an all defensive team. He was an established talent.

And Rodman wasn’t wanted by the Spurs. I get that. There are a few times at the time who wouldn’t have bothered with him. I can’t debate that. But I take issue with this idea that no one wanted him. Teams absolutely would have wanted the best rebounder who is also an elite defender at the time on their team.

The Bulls drafted Pippen and he established himself as an allstar in his 3rd year in the league after a couple ok seasons. Jordan had to wait on Pippen to develop into that caliber of player. Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis were already established. James and Jordan both won many championships but they did it differently.


Not sure how many teams wanted to take a chance on him after his debacle in San Antonio. Elite rebounder yes of course, but how many teams could have gotten what the Bulls got out of him at that time in his life?

[MavsDirk41]

No they were still 50-32 record and were considered as a long shot to beat detroit in 2007

Also when you are 40-42 or 30-52( yes the Bulls make the playoffs with this record ) and you are in the playoffs,of course good chance your team will face powerhouse in the first round

Doesn’t answer my question. What powerhouse team did they face? Anything comparable to Birds Celtics or the Bad Boy Pistons? Im not saying what he did wasn’t impressive but there wasnt a dynasty comparable to Birds Celtics or the Bad Boy Pistons. You would have had to have watched those teams to truly understand their greatness.

Spurs,not a dynasty?....They had won more titles that the celtics in the 1980s after 2007....I know the cavs did not win a single playoffs game vs spurs but the Bulls face the celtics in the first round because of their poor regular season record.....

Biggest problem for the bulls was not they lost to the celtics but rather they didn't have a winning season when they face the celtics....The cavs had a 50-32 record so usually you don't play against a powerhouse like that in the first round with a record like that...Yes the cavs playoff run wasn't the hardest but they also didn't lose to a 42-40 type team like the mavs in the same year!

Wasnt talking about the Spurs was talking about the east.

[Iwasawitness]

I would never say Rodman wasn’t pivotal to the Bulls second 3 peat, he obviously was. But, Rodman only played 49 games in San Antonio and he clashed with the coaching staff and players. They were done with his antics. Rodman was seen as a cancer by the Spurs and from many within the nba.

My point is James won with established talent while, other than Rodman, Jordan didnt.

By the time Jordan won his first championship, Pippen was already an all star and had already made an all defensive team. He was an established talent.

And Rodman wasn’t wanted by the Spurs. I get that. There are a few times at the time who wouldn’t have bothered with him. I can’t debate that. But I take issue with this idea that no one wanted him. Teams absolutely would have wanted the best rebounder who is also an elite defender at the time on their team.

The Bulls drafted Pippen and he established himself as an allstar in his 3rd year in the league after a couple ok seasons. Jordan had to wait on Pippen to develop into that caliber of player. Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis were already established. James and Jordan both won many championships but they did it differently.


Not sure how many teams wanted to take a chance on him after his debacle in San Antonio. Elite rebounder yes of course, but how many teams could have gotten what the Bulls got out of him at that time in his life?

They did it differently but I don’t really see why that matters. Again, from a talent standpoint, you can argue that there 2012 Heat don’t really compare with the better bulls teams, so it’s difficult for me to really care about how LeBron got to that point… the fact of the matter is, he still did it. I think that more so just proves the point that LeBron came into the NBA playing for a horribly inept organization.

I don’t really think anyone could have gotten out of Rodman what the Bulls did. That’s definitely a point in their favor. It was the perfect situation for Rodman to end up in.

[michaelm]

Well for one thing, it allowed LeBron to do more defensively. Being able to play a defensive floater time did wonders for his teams, especially in the first stint Cavaliers days. That’s always going to have more of an impact than what Jordan did. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: Jordan is the best two way player ever, but he could never truly impact that end of the floor the way LeBron did. It isn’t just that he couldn’t guard centers… he could guard almost anyone in his prime. You couldn’t say the same about Jordan.

Better playmaker thing is self explanatory.

Jordan did do more than enough for his teams to win, but let me put it to you this way… LeBron won a championship on three different systems. I don’t think Jordan ever wins one outside of the one he was accustomed to. Jordan’s play style did have its faults. Sure, so did LeBron’s, but then again, those weaknesses were evened out by what Pippen, Grant/Rodman and the triangle brought to the table (whether people want to admit it or not).

James won in 3 different systems but he also has played with more individual talent and had more of a say in who he played with. He teamed up with Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis. Those players were already established all star talent. Pippen and Grant developed playing with Jordan. So did Kukoc. Rodman was 34 and nobody wanted him. Jordan was also still playing defense at 40 unlike James. Jordan also built a dynasty in Chicago. What dynasty has James ever been a part of?

"Jordan built a dynasty". Now we're giving Jordan credit for the front office making great moves and putting some of the greatest supporting casts in history around him. Jordan mythologists are absolutely hilarious. Is there anything they won't give Jordan credit for? I'm waiting for him to get credit for the 93-94 team going 55-27 without him.

Don't let anybody ever tell you that the Air Jordan marketing campaign wasn't one of the greatest marketing campaigns ever. This is why it's difficult to debate with hardcore Jordan fans. You're dealing with a cult.

More ad hominem, your main stock in trade.

And Jordan made a definite decision to go the team route. It worked. You and your fellow travellers are reduced to contending that somehow Jordan choosing to be a team player in a team game gave him an unfair advantage. And if being a Jordan partisan constitutes being in a cult at worst it is in opposition to a LeAbron cult.

[michaelm]

I would never say Rodman wasn’t pivotal to the Bulls second 3 peat, he obviously was. But, Rodman only played 49 games in San Antonio and he clashed with the coaching staff and players. They were done with his antics. Rodman was seen as a cancer by the Spurs and from many within the nba.

My point is James won with established talent while, other than Rodman, Jordan didnt.

By the time Jordan won his first championship, Pippen was already an all star and had already made an all defensive team. He was an established talent.

And Rodman wasn’t wanted by the Spurs. I get that. There are a few times at the time who wouldn’t have bothered with him. I can’t debate that. But I take issue with this idea that no one wanted him. Teams absolutely would have wanted the best rebounder who is also an elite defender at the time on their team.

The Bulls drafted Pippen and he established himself as an allstar in his 3rd year in the league after a couple ok seasons. Jordan had to wait on Pippen to develop into that caliber of player. Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis were already established. James and Jordan both won many championships but they did it differently.


Not sure how many teams wanted to take a chance on him after his debacle in San Antonio. Elite rebounder yes of course, but how many teams could have gotten what the Bulls got out of him at that time in his life?

Jordan and Lebron took two different approaches both of which were very successful obviously. Sure one approach is not necessarily intrinsically more worthy than the other, but choices were made and Lebron's choices haven't left much room for his partisans to complain about Jordan's choices resulting in better teams, and teams with better fit in particular, imo. As you do I also see a difference between all stars who became and had only been all stars next to Jordan and all stars, some of them franchise players, who became so completely independently of Lebron.

It is however definitely a fair point that Lebron was drafted by an inept organisation which limited his choices imo.

[ScrantonBulls]

James won in 3 different systems but he also has played with more individual talent and had more of a say in who he played with. He teamed up with Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis. Those players were already established all star talent. Pippen and Grant developed playing with Jordan. So did Kukoc. Rodman was 34 and nobody wanted him. Jordan was also still playing defense at 40 unlike James. Jordan also built a dynasty in Chicago. What dynasty has James ever been a part of?

"Jordan built a dynasty". Now we're giving Jordan credit for the front office making great moves and putting some of the greatest supporting casts in history around him. Jordan mythologists are absolutely hilarious. Is there anything they won't give Jordan credit for? I'm waiting for him to get credit for the 93-94 team going 55-27 without him.

Don't let anybody ever tell you that the Air Jordan marketing campaign wasn't one of the greatest marketing campaigns ever. This is why it's difficult to debate with hardcore Jordan fans. You're dealing with a cult.

More ad hominem, your main stock in trade.

And Jordan made a definite decision to go the team route. It worked. You and your fellow travellers are reduced to contending that somehow Jordan choosing to be a team player in a team game gave him an unfair advantage.

I can see you tried to have a little mic drop moment here because you're getting upset about the conversation, but it completely flopped. Maybe you should do some research on NBA contracts from that era and MJs contract. It's clear you don't know much about how it worked back then and what was the norm.

[MavsDirk41]

By the time Jordan won his first championship, Pippen was already an all star and had already made an all defensive team. He was an established talent.

And Rodman wasn’t wanted by the Spurs. I get that. There are a few times at the time who wouldn’t have bothered with him. I can’t debate that. But I take issue with this idea that no one wanted him. Teams absolutely would have wanted the best rebounder who is also an elite defender at the time on their team.

The Bulls drafted Pippen and he established himself as an allstar in his 3rd year in the league after a couple ok seasons. Jordan had to wait on Pippen to develop into that caliber of player. Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis were already established. James and Jordan both won many championships but they did it differently.


Not sure how many teams wanted to take a chance on him after his debacle in San Antonio. Elite rebounder yes of course, but how many teams could have gotten what the Bulls got out of him at that time in his life?

They did it differently but I don’t really see why that matters. Again, from a talent standpoint, you can argue that there 2012 Heat don’t really compare with the better bulls teams, so it’s difficult for me to really care about how LeBron got to that point… the fact of the matter is, he still did it. I think that more so just proves the point that LeBron came into the NBA playing for a horribly inept organization.

I don’t really think anyone could have gotten out of Rodman what the Bulls did. That’s definitely a point in their favor. It was the perfect situation for Rodman to end up in.

They both came into the league with totally inept rosters void of talent. Krause should get plenty of credit for drafting Pippen and Grant in 87. But again Pippen took time to develop. The first playoff series Jordan won was against Cleveland when he hit the shot. Jordan went nuclear in that series while Pippen and Grant were ok. They won that series because of Jordan. Pippen was hardly a factor. ECF against Detroit in 90. Game 7. Pippen with the migraine. James dealt with injuries to Wade and Love while playing with them just like Jordan dealt with Pippen injuries and his overall growing pains while developing

My point was after leaving Cleveland in 2010, James has played with more top end talent than Jordan ever did. Compare the top 5 or 6 players that each has played with. Its lopsided in favor of James. Not sure how you can deny that. Both all time greats but give me Jordan.

[MavsDirk41]

James won in 3 different systems but he also has played with more individual talent and had more of a say in who he played with. He teamed up with Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis. Those players were already established all star talent. Pippen and Grant developed playing with Jordan. So did Kukoc. Rodman was 34 and nobody wanted him. Jordan was also still playing defense at 40 unlike James. Jordan also built a dynasty in Chicago. What dynasty has James ever been a part of?

"Jordan built a dynasty". Now we're giving Jordan credit for the front office making great moves and putting some of the greatest supporting casts in history around him. Jordan mythologists are absolutely hilarious. Is there anything they won't give Jordan credit for? I'm waiting for him to get credit for the 93-94 team going 55-27 without him.

Don't let anybody ever tell you that the Air Jordan marketing campaign wasn't one of the greatest marketing campaigns ever. This is why it's difficult to debate with hardcore Jordan fans. You're dealing with a cult.

More ad hominem, your main stock in trade.

And Jordan made a definite decision to go the team route. It worked. You and your fellow travellers are reduced to contending that somehow Jordan choosing to be a team player in a team game gave him an unfair advantage.

He is just a troll on here

[Calvin Klein]

MJ

[michaelm]

"Jordan built a dynasty". Now we're giving Jordan credit for the front office making great moves and putting some of the greatest supporting casts in history around him. Jordan mythologists are absolutely hilarious. Is there anything they won't give Jordan credit for? I'm waiting for him to get credit for the 93-94 team going 55-27 without him.

Don't let anybody ever tell you that the Air Jordan marketing campaign wasn't one of the greatest marketing campaigns ever. This is why it's difficult to debate with hardcore Jordan fans. You're dealing with a cult.

More ad hominem, your main stock in trade.

And Jordan made a definite decision to go the team route. It worked. You and your fellow travellers are reduced to contending that somehow Jordan choosing to be a team player in a team game gave him an unfair advantage.

I can see you tried to have a little mic drop moment here because you're getting upset about the conversation, but it completely flopped. Maybe you should do some research on NBA contracts from that era and MJs contract. It's clear you don't know much about how it worked back then and what was the norm.

I am undismayed by the conversation and have been all along, ad hominem not commonly being a sign that the exponent is winning the argument, as you also demonstrate.

I was a more desultory NBA fan back then, but was in the USA for reasons related to my occupation in most of the years of the threepeats and got to watch the finals live in those years.

I am aware that there was not nearly as much player movement in the Jordan era. Jordan is however on the record as saying that he didn’t start winning until he saw the need for a more team approach, and acceded to playing Jackson’s triangle offense which took the ball out of his hands etc, and if LeBron made the choice to be his own GM, i can’t see how it is to Jordan’s detriment that Krause was a better GM then LeBron, who wasn’t particularly good at being a GM imo, his constant approach having been to stack up talent regardless of fit.

[MavsDirk41]

By the time Jordan won his first championship, Pippen was already an all star and had already made an all defensive team. He was an established talent.

And Rodman wasn’t wanted by the Spurs. I get that. There are a few times at the time who wouldn’t have bothered with him. I can’t debate that. But I take issue with this idea that no one wanted him. Teams absolutely would have wanted the best rebounder who is also an elite defender at the time on their team.

The Bulls drafted Pippen and he established himself as an allstar in his 3rd year in the league after a couple ok seasons. Jordan had to wait on Pippen to develop into that caliber of player. Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis were already established. James and Jordan both won many championships but they did it differently.


Not sure how many teams wanted to take a chance on him after his debacle in San Antonio. Elite rebounder yes of course, but how many teams could have gotten what the Bulls got out of him at that time in his life?

Jordan and Lebron took two different approaches both of which were very successful obviously. Sure one approach is not necessarily intrinsically more worthy than the other, but choices were made and Lebron's choices haven't left much room for his partisans to complain about Jordan's choices resulting in better teams, and teams with better fit in particular, imo. As you do I also see a difference between all stars who became and had only been all stars next to Jordan and all stars, some of them franchise players, who became so completely independently of Lebron.

It is however definitely a fair point that Lebron was drafted by an inept organisation which limited his choices imo.

Yea pretty much after he left Cleveland he paired up with established talent (Love, Wade, Irving, Bosh, Davis). Aside from Rodman who was 34 and being shown the door by San Antonio, Pippen, Grant, and Kukoc developed with the Bulls when they entered the league. Cartwright, Kerr, Livingston, Brown, Longley, Perdue, Armstrong, Wennington, Caffey, King, Harper, and the rest were solid role players who did their part. I hold a higher regard for the way Jordan did it and for winning 6 with the organization that drafted him. I understand the James fans wont agree but its my opinion.

[MrTribbiani]

Goat James IMO. The Jordan stans will never be able to convince me otherwise.

[michaelm]

Goat James IMO. The Jordan stans will never be able to convince me otherwise.

Au contraire. You are the guys trying to convince others that the long established GOAT has been superseded, on flimsy evidence from my viewpoint.

[michaelm]

Goat James IMO. The Jordan stans will never be able to convince me otherwise.

Au contraire. You are the guys trying to convince others that the long established GOAT has been superseded, and not based on anything other than flimsy evidence that I have ever seen presented.

[The4thHorseman]

The Bulls drafted Pippen and he established himself as an allstar in his 3rd year in the league after a couple ok seasons. Jordan had to wait on Pippen to develop into that caliber of player. Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis were already established. James and Jordan both won many championships but they did it differently.


Not sure how many teams wanted to take a chance on him after his debacle in San Antonio. Elite rebounder yes of course, but how many teams could have gotten what the Bulls got out of him at that time in his life?

Jordan and Lebron took two different approaches both of which were very successful obviously. Sure one approach is not necessarily intrinsically more worthy than the other, but choices were made and Lebron's choices haven't left much room for his partisans to complain about Jordan's choices resulting in better teams, and teams with better fit in particular, imo. As you do I also see a difference between all stars who became and had only been all stars next to Jordan and all stars, some of them franchise players, who became so completely independently of Lebron.

It is however definitely a fair point that Lebron was drafted by an inept organisation which limited his choices imo.

Yea pretty much after he left Cleveland he paired up with established talent (Love, Wade, Irving, Bosh, Davis). Aside from Rodman who was 34 and being shown the door by San Antonio, Pippen, Grant, and Kukoc developed with the Bulls when they entered the league. Cartwright, Kerr, Livingston, Brown, Longley, Perdue, Armstrong, Wennington, Caffey, King, Harper, and the rest were solid role players who did their part. I hold a higher regard for the way Jordan did it and for winning 6 with the organization that drafted him. I understand the James fans wont agree but its my opinion.

In a combined 16 seasons Love, Irving and Bosh played 11 postseason games and won 3 of them in those 2 appearances. Yeah, they were established alright.

[ScrantonBulls]

Goat James IMO. The Jordan stans will never be able to convince me otherwise.

What if I were to tell you that MJ's front office was so good that they were able to build two different championship teams around him? That they were able to build teams so good that they won 55 games without him. And what if I told you that it wasn't really the front office that built and developed those teams and players, but it was MJ that did it? That those players became great because they played against MJ in practice. And that the 93-94 team without MJ won 55 games because he taught them The Art of the Win™. Then would you believe it? That's some GOAT stuff right there!