RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[michaelm]

Jordan and Lebron took two different approaches both of which were very successful obviously. Sure one approach is not necessarily intrinsically more worthy than the other, but choices were made and Lebron's choices haven't left much room for his partisans to complain about Jordan's choices resulting in better teams, and teams with better fit in particular, imo. As you do I also see a difference between all stars who became and had only been all stars next to Jordan and all stars, some of them franchise players, who became so completely independently of Lebron.

It is however definitely a fair point that Lebron was drafted by an inept organisation which limited his choices imo.

Yea pretty much after he left Cleveland he paired up with established talent (Love, Wade, Irving, Bosh, Davis). Aside from Rodman who was 34 and being shown the door by San Antonio, Pippen, Grant, and Kukoc developed with the Bulls when they entered the league. Cartwright, Kerr, Livingston, Brown, Longley, Perdue, Armstrong, Wennington, Caffey, King, Harper, and the rest were solid role players who did their part. I hold a higher regard for the way Jordan did it and for winning 6 with the organization that drafted him. I understand the James fans wont agree but its my opinion.

In a combined 16 seasons Love, Irving and Bosh played 11 postseason games and won 3 of them in those 2 appearances. Yeah, they were established alright.

All of them were multiple All-Stars before ever playing an NBA regular season game next to LeBron however, which would be less relevant if your fellow travellers were less in the habit of complaining about the strength of Jordan’s Bulls teams and the number of All-Stars he played with in particular.

[michaelm]

Goat James IMO. The Jordan stans will never be able to convince me otherwise.

What if I were to tell you that MJ's front office was so good that they were able to build two different championship teams around him? That they were able to build teams so good that they won 55 games without him. And what if I told you that it wasn't really the front office that built and developed those teams and players, but it was MJ that did it? That those players became great because they played against MJ in practice. And that the 93-94 team without MJ won 55 games because he taught them The Art of the Win™. Then would you believe it? That's some GOAT stuff right there!

Nice straw man. I see argumentum ad hominem is not the only logical fallacy you have mastered.

So it was unfair that Krause was a better GM than LeBron James ?. And sheer coincidence that Jordan was the FMVP on the only 6 title winning Bulls teams which have ever existed ?.

[MrTribbiani]

Goat James IMO. The Jordan stans will never be able to convince me otherwise.

Au contraire. You are the guys trying to convince others that the long established GOAT has been superseded, on flimsy evidence from my viewpoint.

I disagree with your opinion. Jordan propaganda doesn't work on me.

[michaelm]

Goat James IMO. The Jordan stans will never be able to convince me otherwise.

Au contraire. You are the guys trying to convince others that the long established GOAT has been superseded, on flimsy evidence from my viewpoint.

I disagree with your opinion. Jordan propaganda doesn't work on me.

You are entitled to your opinion of course. But it is actually a fact that Jordan was the consensus GOAT by a fairly large margin. Of course it is possible for LeBron to be as good or better, although he isn’t in my own opinion, but you guys are the ones attempting to convince people of this.

[MrTribbiani]

Au contraire. You are the guys trying to convince others that the long established GOAT has been superseded, on flimsy evidence from my viewpoint.

I disagree with your opinion. Jordan propaganda doesn't work on me.

You are entitled to your opinion of course. But it is actually a fact that Jordan was the consensus GOAT by a fairly large margin. Of course it is possible for LeBron to be as good or better, although he isn’t in my own opinion, but you guys are the ones attempting to convince people of this.

The opinions of Jordan propagandists mean nothing to me. LeBron is the GOAT IMO and nothing will change that.

[ScrantonBulls]

I disagree with your opinion. Jordan propaganda doesn't work on me.

You are entitled to your opinion of course. But it is actually a fact that Jordan was the consensus GOAT by a fairly large margin. Of course it is possible for LeBron to be as good or better, although he isn’t in my own opinion, but you guys are the ones attempting to convince people of this.

The opinions of Jordan propagandists mean nothing to me. LeBron is the GOAT IMO and nothing will change that.

What about his pathological will to win? His fiery desire for greatness that helped transform and develop his teammates into good players. You're simply going to ignore all that?

[MrTribbiani]

You are entitled to your opinion of course. But it is actually a fact that Jordan was the consensus GOAT by a fairly large margin. Of course it is possible for LeBron to be as good or better, although he isn’t in my own opinion, but you guys are the ones attempting to convince people of this.

The opinions of Jordan propagandists mean nothing to me. LeBron is the GOAT IMO and nothing will change that.

What about his pathological will to win? His fiery desire for greatness that helped transform and develop his teammates into good players. You're simply going to ignore all that?

Both of them have that

[michaelm]

You are entitled to your opinion of course. But it is actually a fact that Jordan was the consensus GOAT by a fairly large margin. Of course it is possible for LeBron to be as good or better, although he isn’t in my own opinion, but you guys are the ones attempting to convince people of this.

The opinions of Jordan propagandists mean nothing to me. LeBron is the GOAT IMO and nothing will change that.

What about his pathological will to win? His fiery desire for greatness that helped transform and develop his teammates into good players. You're simply going to ignore all that?

As I said, you have very definitely mastered the straw man logical fallacy.

And interesting that propaganda is restricted to arguments disagreeing with a point of view, which then conveniently don’t need be addressed.

[ScrantonBulls]

The opinions of Jordan propagandists mean nothing to me. LeBron is the GOAT IMO and nothing will change that.

What about his pathological will to win? His fiery desire for greatness that helped transform and develop his teammates into good players. You're simply going to ignore all that?

Both of them have that

When MJ was on the court, he was out there to literally kill you. His opponents never knew if they would be returning to their families after the game. That's just how competitive MJ was. Nobody else has that killer instinct.

[michaelm]

What about his pathological will to win? His fiery desire for greatness that helped transform and develop his teammates into good players. You're simply going to ignore all that?

Both of them have that

When MJ was on the court, he was out there to literally kill you. His opponents never knew if they would be returning to their families after the game. That's just how competitive MJ was. Nobody else has that killer instinct.

Another straw man post. No one doubts you have mastered same.

You could perhaps move on to understanding the concept of irony.

[MavsDirk41]

Jordan and Lebron took two different approaches both of which were very successful obviously. Sure one approach is not necessarily intrinsically more worthy than the other, but choices were made and Lebron's choices haven't left much room for his partisans to complain about Jordan's choices resulting in better teams, and teams with better fit in particular, imo. As you do I also see a difference between all stars who became and had only been all stars next to Jordan and all stars, some of them franchise players, who became so completely independently of Lebron.

It is however definitely a fair point that Lebron was drafted by an inept organisation which limited his choices imo.

Yea pretty much after he left Cleveland he paired up with established talent (Love, Wade, Irving, Bosh, Davis). Aside from Rodman who was 34 and being shown the door by San Antonio, Pippen, Grant, and Kukoc developed with the Bulls when they entered the league. Cartwright, Kerr, Livingston, Brown, Longley, Perdue, Armstrong, Wennington, Caffey, King, Harper, and the rest were solid role players who did their part. I hold a higher regard for the way Jordan did it and for winning 6 with the organization that drafted him. I understand the James fans wont agree but its my opinion.

In a combined 16 seasons Love, Irving and Bosh played 11 postseason games and won 3 of them in those 2 appearances. Yeah, they were established alright.

So Love, Bosh, and Irving were never selected to the nba all star team multiple times prior to playing with Lebron James? So if an nba player is a multi-selected all star is that player not established as one of the best players in the nba?

[MavsDirk41]

Goat James IMO. The Jordan stans will never be able to convince me otherwise.

Au contraire. You are the guys trying to convince others that the long established GOAT has been superseded, on flimsy evidence from my viewpoint.

I disagree with your opinion. Jordan propaganda doesn't work on me.

Jordan propaganda? Have you ever heard of the Klutch propaganda machine?

[michaelm]

Yea pretty much after he left Cleveland he paired up with established talent (Love, Wade, Irving, Bosh, Davis). Aside from Rodman who was 34 and being shown the door by San Antonio, Pippen, Grant, and Kukoc developed with the Bulls when they entered the league. Cartwright, Kerr, Livingston, Brown, Longley, Perdue, Armstrong, Wennington, Caffey, King, Harper, and the rest were solid role players who did their part. I hold a higher regard for the way Jordan did it and for winning 6 with the organization that drafted him. I understand the James fans wont agree but its my opinion.

In a combined 16 seasons Love, Irving and Bosh played 11 postseason games and won 3 of them in those 2 appearances. Yeah, they were established alright.

So Love, Bosh, and Irving were never selected to the nba all star team multiple times prior to playing with Lebron James? So if an nba player is a multi-selected all star is that player not established as one of the best players in the nba?

Maybe, maybe not in all honesty, but I would hazard a guess LeBron didn’t choose to play with them because he considered them to have All-Star status undeservedly. There is also the small matter that Bosh and Irving at least contributed significantly to 2 of the titles won by LeBron teams.

[MrTribbiani]

Au contraire. You are the guys trying to convince others that the long established GOAT has been superseded, on flimsy evidence from my viewpoint.

I disagree with your opinion. Jordan propaganda doesn't work on me.

Jordan propaganda? Have you ever heard of the Klutch propaganda machine?

Both MJ and Bron have propaganda machines behind them. It is what it is.

[michaelm]

I disagree with your opinion. Jordan propaganda doesn't work on me.

Jordan propaganda? Have you ever heard of the Klutch propaganda machine?

Both MJ and Bron have propaganda machines behind them. It is what it is.

Agreed, hard to know which is more pervasive. LeBron has been heavily hyped since before he was drafted, perhaps rightly so, but Jordan has hardly been hyped without substance either. I have no problem acknowledging both of them have propaganda machines more highly powered than those of any player other than themselves.

Similarly with Scranton Bulls cult thing, even imo you don’t have to be a member of a cult to consider either player the GOAT. But there are either two cults or no cults.

[bledredwine]

I disagree with your opinion. Jordan propaganda doesn't work on me.

Jordan propaganda? Have you ever heard of the Klutch propaganda machine?

Both MJ and Bron have propaganda machines behind them. It is what it is.

Truth.

But in terms of more ammunition from the objective categories in a typical GOAT debate,
be it achievements, stats, player/coach testimony from cross eras, or whatever you want to name aside from longevity, Jordan has an inordinate advantage.

[MrTribbiani]

Jordan propaganda? Have you ever heard of the Klutch propaganda machine?

Both MJ and Bron have propaganda machines behind them. It is what it is.

Truth.

But in terms of more ammunition from the objective categories in a typical GOAT debate,
be it achievements, stats, player/coach testimony from cross eras, or whatever you want to name aside from longevity, Jordan has an inordinate advantage.

IMO LeBron has an inordinate advantage.

[bledredwine]

Both MJ and Bron have propaganda machines behind them. It is what it is.

Truth.

But in terms of more ammunition from the objective categories in a typical GOAT debate,
be it achievements, stats, player/coach testimony from cross eras, or whatever you want to name aside from longevity, Jordan has an inordinate advantage.

IMO LeBron has an inordinate advantage.

Any video you can find that goes over as many stats as possible from a variety of perspectives has Jordan in a landslide.

And of course. He has more achievements in all areas (championships offensive defensive) in way less time, wins the statistical battle on a per game/season performance, and has the championships. Lebron's been "chasing" him for a reason. If you're on the Lebron side, it's an uphill battle.

The fact MJ was 6 and 0 in all his Championships with the same organization that drafted him without ever going to a game 7 in those chip runs is a mic drop in itself!

With Lebron, we tune in to see if he'll win. With Mike, we tuned in to see how he would win.

You already knew he'd be by far the best player on the court and would come through in the 4th and important games.

He went 1990 to 1998 without losing 3 games in a row 687 games, playoffs and intersecting multiple series included.

and for the days he had to face stacked teams? He did it with 0 Allstars and still always performed. Pippen finally makes an Allstar squad, and gets sick. Next year, all championships and never looks back. In terms of bigger impact on winning and more competitive player, it's not even a contest.

If I'm to be sincere, it's why I love posting in these threads. It's a bit unfair towards me and I also constantly get to learn of new (amazing) feats that Jordan and those Bulls accomplished.
24-11 in the finals with only one consensus allstar is insane. No one is doing that for a long, long time… not until the next Jordan level ceiling raiser comes along.

Jordan was one of three players to average 11+ assists in the finals. Then the next year, he sets a record for threes in a half. The following year, sets the record for ppg with 41 ppg in the finals. You won’t see a unicorn like that for a long time.
If someone attributes that to propoganda, then they don’t know what they’re talking about. He was just that good.

[bledredwine]

By the way, not sure what it is since, but the clutch shooting debate is so skewed it's crazy. As of October 2024, Lebron has missed 16 straight game-winning/tying three-pointers. That's absurd.

Even ChapGPT will tell you that he has a field goal percentage of 17.8% and a 3-point percentage of 12.5% in clutch situations, regardless of how many of these he's hit. (larger sample sizes such as my sig)

[Homer38]

By the way, not sure what it is since, but the clutch shooting debate is so skewed it's crazy. As of October 2024, Lebron has missed 16 straight game-winning/tying three-pointers. That's absurd.

Even ChapGPT will tell you that he has a field goal percentage of 17.8% and a 3-point percentage of 12.5% in clutch situations, regardless of how many of these he's hit. (larger sample sizes such as my sig)

It don't change he is one of the best clutch performer of all-time....Of course nobody is perfect and everyone can have a slump even in the clutch situation,but when you have 5 game winner buzzer in the playoffs and so many other clutch shots or moment and his team was one of the best clutch team of all-time in 2008,2009,2013 and that the cavs were like 50-1 in 2018 including the playoffs when leading after 3 quarter despite their very poor defense and in 2020,the lakers were like 57-0 after leading after 3 quarter,you are clutch and this is a very big sample size

He is also a big time big game performer,like game 7,so you can find some random stats and some bad moment as you want like the 2011 finals and I can do this for every players,even for player like Michael Jordan or Tom Brady in the NFL but overall LeBron has been one of the best clutch performer in sports history