Josh Giddey - Conundrum Killer

[WindyCityBorn]

The same Sam Presti who's the GM of the team where he started for 3 years, including the entire season except for TWO playoff games they benched him, which they lost. Don't know how a decision that failed is looked like it was genius on the Thunder's part. They made the playoffs with Giddey starting. They were .500 in that series with Giddey starting, they lost two in a row with him coming off the bench. I wish people would stop acting like that was a smart move. Benching him did not result in more wins, it resulted in a worse winning percentage against the exact same team.

And I'll say clearly that the money we're talking about is not close to star money. It's average starter money. So if he needs to be a star to be a good NBA player, we should be talking about an entirely different pay scale.

If you believe in Presti, he drafted him and started him for 3 years. Is he an idiot now? Are you all better basketball minds than Presti, Mark Daigneault, AK and Billy Donovan? He certainly didn't "fail" in OKC, or they would have benched him WAY before his last two games in the playoffs. Flip your statement about OKC being better than us, he started on a better team, but he's a bench player here?

If you take Presti's side, Presti could have traded him at any point over 3 years. He traded him to get one of the best defenders in the league for a win now team.

Want to talk about leaving points out, how about pointing out he was benched for 2 out of over 200 games he played for the Thunder. That seems a pretty significant point you conveniently left out when talking about his benching. The fact that he's been benched less than 1% of his games. That's statistically insignificant. It does not show a trend or pattern. Coming off the bench for them is not the same anyway, they have SGA at point guard. Argument carries no water, they have an MVP candidate at Giddey's position.

Caruso's not starting either, how much did they just pay him to come off the bench? 4yrs/ $81 mill. Since 15-20 min bench players are only worth MLE. Skip the fact that it's a 7 year older bench player.

They made the playoffs in spite of Giddey. The team performed better when he was off the floor. It’s like Doug stated people don’t play attention to him when he doesn’t have the ball. Presti realized that and fleeced us in a trade.

I don’t think you realize how crippling his weaknesses are to a team. It makes him unplayable at times. He’s literally a liability.

I'll be the first guy to admit, some of you guys see stuff I miss. I freely admit I missed the PWill being an absolute non-starting level player for years. I just don't see Giddey as a liability...and of late, on either end. That said, he's no star.

The other learning I had with PWill is that it is a mistake to sign guys to retain their asset value. It doesn't work more than it does. The truth is that this team needs a #1 option to start to rebuild, and until then, as painful as it sounds, the right move may be to just keep letting good players go (for whatever value we can extract for them) until we have a great player. It doesn't necessarily mean tanking, but it does mean to pump and dump until we found that foundational piece.

Many of these same people saying Giddey sucks said Zach would never amount to anything. They even said matching the Kings offer all those years back was a horrible mistake. Obviously he never became a franchise talent, but he would have made more than 2 all-star games if our front office didn’t suck. He would have made it this year if we didn’t suck.

Trust your own eyes and opinions. Not the ones that think any young flawed player is worthless and not even worth the MLE. Two years from now people will be eating these words depending on how much he gets paid. If it is something like 4 years/$80 million it will be a fair deal. He will be a high level starter.

[PJSteven22]

They made the playoffs in spite of Giddey. The team performed better when he was off the floor. It’s like Doug stated people don’t play attention to him when he doesn’t have the ball. Presti realized that and fleeced us in a trade.

I don’t think you realize how crippling his weaknesses are to a team. It makes him unplayable at times. He’s literally a liability.

I'll be the first guy to admit, some of you guys see stuff I miss. I freely admit I missed the PWill being an absolute non-starting level player for years. I just don't see Giddey as a liability...and of late, on either end. That said, he's no star.

The other learning I had with PWill is that it is a mistake to sign guys to retain their asset value. It doesn't work more than it does. The truth is that this team needs a #1 option to start to rebuild, and until then, as painful as it sounds, the right move may be to just keep letting good players go (for whatever value we can extract for them) until we have a great player. It doesn't necessarily mean tanking, but it does mean to pump and dump until we found that foundational piece.

Many of these same people saying Giddey sucks said Zach would never amount to anything. They even said matching the Kings offer all those years back was a horrible mistake. Obviously he never became a franchise talent, but he would have made more than 2 all-star games if our front office didn’t suck. He would have made it this year if we didn’t suck.

Trust your own eyes and opinions. Not the ones that think any young flawed player is worthless and not even worth the MLE. Two years from now people will be eating these words depending on how much he gets paid. If it is something like 4 years/$80 million it will be a fair deal. He will be a high level starter.

Josh Giddey doesn’t have an elite skill or trait whereas Zach had an elite trait. His best skill which his passing is limited in the half court because he’s can’t break down a defense and penetrate. Look at my list of top 15 PGs and tell me who is he going to be better than. If you look at my list you’ll realize that he doesn’t have the scoring ability to keep defenses honest. I’m going with my eyes on this one. He’s a meh player.

[Infinity2152]

I'll be the first guy to admit, some of you guys see stuff I miss. I freely admit I missed the PWill being an absolute non-starting level player for years. I just don't see Giddey as a liability...and of late, on either end. That said, he's no star.

The other learning I had with PWill is that it is a mistake to sign guys to retain their asset value. It doesn't work more than it does. The truth is that this team needs a #1 option to start to rebuild, and until then, as painful as it sounds, the right move may be to just keep letting good players go (for whatever value we can extract for them) until we have a great player. It doesn't necessarily mean tanking, but it does mean to pump and dump until we found that foundational piece.

Many of these same people saying Giddey sucks said Zach would never amount to anything. They even said matching the Kings offer all those years back was a horrible mistake. Obviously he never became a franchise talent, but he would have made more than 2 all-star games if our front office didn’t suck. He would have made it this year if we didn’t suck.

Trust your own eyes and opinions. Not the ones that think any young flawed player is worthless and not even worth the MLE. Two years from now people will be eating these words depending on how much he gets paid. If it is something like 4 years/$80 million it will be a fair deal. He will be a high level starter.

Josh Giddey doesn’t have an elite skill or trait whereas Zach had an elite trait. His best skill which his passing is limited in the half court because he’s can’t break down a defense and penetrate. Look at my list of top 15 PGs and tell me who is he going to be better than. If you look at my list you’ll realize that he doesn’t have the scoring ability to keep defenses honest. I’m going with my eyes on this one. He’s a meh player.

You're really going to say that averaging 7 assists and 7 rebounds from the guard position isn't elite? He has no elite skills or traits? All those $50 mill point guards that are considered elite, are most of them averaging over 7 assists? Especially relative to much higher usage. Point guards average 4.2 assists/gm this season. 7 is elite. 7 rebounds is most definitely elite from either guard position. Even more so because he's playing just under 29 minutes. If he got 34-36 minutes, we'd see triple doubles.

Trivia question: who's the last Chicago Bull to average over 7 assists? Derrick Rose in 2011?

[Infinity2152]

Here's another way to look at it. Most of Giddey's comparisons, speed, athleticism, shooting, are to other point guards. When he was with OKC, I don't think he played point guard most of the time. If viewed as a passing, rebounding forward, how does he project then? He would be on the court with a point guard shooter, like he may be with Ball and has been effective. Guards typically have to be better shooters than forwards to make it in the league. But at 6'8, Giddey is pretty positionless. He could bulk up a little, and that lack of speed means a lot less guarding small forwards and power forwards. A lot of teams doing very well with forwards shooting 34% from three.

He's the secondary playmaker and the second best rebounder as a starter. If he can get his defense up to being able to guard forwards to an average level, he could be extremely useful even if his shooting doesn't improve much.

[PJSteven22]

Many of these same people saying Giddey sucks said Zach would never amount to anything. They even said matching the Kings offer all those years back was a horrible mistake. Obviously he never became a franchise talent, but he would have made more than 2 all-star games if our front office didn’t suck. He would have made it this year if we didn’t suck.

Trust your own eyes and opinions. Not the ones that think any young flawed player is worthless and not even worth the MLE. Two years from now people will be eating these words depending on how much he gets paid. If it is something like 4 years/$80 million it will be a fair deal. He will be a high level starter.

Josh Giddey doesn’t have an elite skill or trait whereas Zach had an elite trait. His best skill which his passing is limited in the half court because he’s can’t break down a defense and penetrate. Look at my list of top 15 PGs and tell me who is he going to be better than. If you look at my list you’ll realize that he doesn’t have the scoring ability to keep defenses honest. I’m going with my eyes on this one. He’s a meh player.

You're really going to say that averaging 7 assists and 7 rebounds from the guard position isn't elite? He has no elite skills or traits? All those $50 mill point guards that are considered elite, are most of them averaging over 7 assists? Especially relative to much higher usage. Point guards average 4.2 assists/gm this season. 7 is elite. 7 rebounds is most definitely elite from either guard position. Even more so because he's playing just under 29 minutes. If he got 34-36 minutes, we'd see triple doubles.

He’s a good rebounder for his size. Rebounding is kind of irrelevant from the PG position. It’s a plus that he can crash the boards but it’s not a make or break skill. I’ve said before his passing is overrated especially in the half court because he can’t put pressure on the rim and force defenses to collapse. This also creates a lot of hockey assists which are not counted for. Being able to drive is an essential skill for a PG today and he just doesn’t have it. Also he’s very turnover prone. I don’t care about him being a good passer and rebounder if everything else is not good. You know who’s a good rebounder and passer Ben Simmons.

[PJSteven22]

Many of these same people saying Giddey sucks said Zach would never amount to anything. They even said matching the Kings offer all those years back was a horrible mistake. Obviously he never became a franchise talent, but he would have made more than 2 all-star games if our front office didn’t suck. He would have made it this year if we didn’t suck.

Trust your own eyes and opinions. Not the ones that think any young flawed player is worthless and not even worth the MLE. Two years from now people will be eating these words depending on how much he gets paid. If it is something like 4 years/$80 million it will be a fair deal. He will be a high level starter.

Josh Giddey doesn’t have an elite skill or trait whereas Zach had an elite trait. His best skill which his passing is limited in the half court because he’s can’t break down a defense and penetrate. Look at my list of top 15 PGs and tell me who is he going to be better than. If you look at my list you’ll realize that he doesn’t have the scoring ability to keep defenses honest. I’m going with my eyes on this one. He’s a meh player.

Trivia question: who's the last Chicago Bull to average over 7 assists? Derrick Rose in 2011?

Stop comparing him to all stars. You’re doing yourself a disservice.

[Infinity2152]

Josh Giddey doesn’t have an elite skill or trait whereas Zach had an elite trait. His best skill which his passing is limited in the half court because he’s can’t break down a defense and penetrate. Look at my list of top 15 PGs and tell me who is he going to be better than. If you look at my list you’ll realize that he doesn’t have the scoring ability to keep defenses honest. I’m going with my eyes on this one. He’s a meh player.

Trivia question: who's the last Chicago Bull to average over 7 assists? Derrick Rose in 2011?

Stop comparing him to all stars. You’re doing yourself a disservice.

I wasn't comparing him to All-Stars. Before I searched, I thought it was Kirk Hinrich. You want me to lie about who it is? The point was it's been 14 years, not the name of the player. You're just being petty now.

Like when I compared him to Ball, it was horrible. Or when I say Giddey is similar to Joki and Luka in many respects, you take that literally while ignoring the point. They're all relatively unathletic strong rebounders and passers and weak defenders. Luka is Giddey bad on defense. The main difference is their shooting and developed offensive skillset. That's not saying he's anywhere near their level, it's saying the opposite. But 60% of Luka is still a pretty good player. If he improves his shooting, penetrating and/or defense, maybe he gets to 80%.

But if you were judging Luka or Jokic from a purely physical perspective, athleticism, lateral quickness, defensive awareness for their potential, you end up with Jokic getting drafted in the second round. Some players overcome their physical limitations. Getting 7 assists and 7 rebounds a game must be really tough for this exceptionally slow, weak kid.

[PJSteven22]

Trivia question: who's the last Chicago Bull to average over 7 assists? Derrick Rose in 2011?

Stop comparing him to all stars. You’re doing yourself a disservice.

I wasn't comparing him to All-Stars. Before I searched, I thought it was Kirk Hinrich. You want me to lie about who it is? The point was it's been 14 years, not the name of the player. You're just being petty now.

Like when I compared him to Ball, it was horrible. Or when I say Giddey is similar to Joki and Luka in many respects, you take that literally while ignoring the point. They're all relatively unathletic strong rebounders and passers and weak defenders. Luka is Giddey bad on defense. The main difference is their shooting and developed offensive skillset. That's not saying he's anywhere near their level, it's saying the opposite. But 60% of Luka is still a pretty good player.

I don’t care about an arbitrary number. What’s with you and stars? He’s not even 5% the player Luka is and terrible comparison. He’s a role player like Joe Ingles. How is he going to become a better penetrator? He’s not going to become more athletic all of a sudden. His finishing hasn’t really improved at all. In matter of fact his finishing numbers have decreased since he has been in the league. Name me a guy with below average athlete, ball handler, scorer, and defender all of a sudden become a star or a good starter?

[Infinity2152]

Stop comparing him to all stars. You’re doing yourself a disservice.

I wasn't comparing him to All-Stars. Before I searched, I thought it was Kirk Hinrich. You want me to lie about who it is? The point was it's been 14 years, not the name of the player. You're just being petty now.

Like when I compared him to Ball, it was horrible. Or when I say Giddey is similar to Joki and Luka in many respects, you take that literally while ignoring the point. They're all relatively unathletic strong rebounders and passers and weak defenders. Luka is Giddey bad on defense. The main difference is their shooting and developed offensive skillset. That's not saying he's anywhere near their level, it's saying the opposite. But 60% of Luka is still a pretty good player.

I don’t care about an arbitrary number. What’s with you and stars? He’s not even 5% the player Luka is and terrible comparison. He’s a role player like Joe Ingles. How is he going to become a better penetrator? He’s not going to become more athletic all of a sudden. His finishing hasn’t really improved at all. In matter of fact his finishing numbers have decreased since he has been in the league. Name me a guy with below average athlete, ball handler, scorer, and defender all of a sudden become a star or a good starter?

What's with you and Joe Ingles? Talk about terrible comparisons! What about Giddey is remotely like Joe Ingles? Not position, shooting, rebounding, absolutely nothing. Just a random name. What's with YOU and stars? You're the only one focusing on the names instead of the player type. Every time you see a name, you ignore the entire content of the point. there aren't a lot of unathletic 7+ assists, 7+ rebounds poor athletes in the league, so I use the first two I could think of. If you can think of another 7+ assists, 7 rebounds unathletic guy, fell free to mention him. Joe Ingle's ain't it.

Put up with your ridiculous comparisons long enough. Get it through your head. Giddey is not a bench player like Ingles. He will never be a bench player like Ingles, at least not for the next 6-7 years. You may not like it, but that's what it's always been, and what will be. Oh, except for two games in the playoffs. You want to call a guy who's started his whole career a role player, discussion is over. You just won't face reality. In reality he's a starter. And if by some insane reason he ends up on a bench next year (not happening) he still would be at least sixth man. Role player, lmao! The NBA says otherwise.

[MrSparkle]

I like Giddey. I hope he plays really well. I want him to sign a fair value deal. Which IMO is below $18M. And ideally 2Y. I'm confident he won't "earn" a bigger deal. I know the Bulls won't offer him this, but that's my 2C.

GarPax let Zach find a RFA offer; they matched 80/4, which ended up working out very well for Chicago until AK maxed him. Why does this current FO skip the RFA step? A team would have to be idiotic to offer the money that Chicago will extend Giddey to. It's going to be irritating when we have him on 100/4.

Pat was really overpaid in last year's market, which complicates things. He should be a $10M salary, tops. Had he taken the QO, he'd be lining up for the MLE.

Giddey is an interesting player, but he's not playing better than a very good MLE signing (like Caruso).

If AKME do the expected, we're gonna have something like this for salary structure:

Coby $25M+
Giddey $25M+
Pat $18M
Ayo $15M+

Gonna have over $80M on a core of role-players, and maybe a star / maybe not in Matas and the upcoming picks.

[Chi town]

Many of these same people saying Giddey sucks said Zach would never amount to anything. They even said matching the Kings offer all those years back was a horrible mistake. Obviously he never became a franchise talent, but he would have made more than 2 all-star games if our front office didn’t suck. He would have made it this year if we didn’t suck.

Trust your own eyes and opinions. Not the ones that think any young flawed player is worthless and not even worth the MLE. Two years from now people will be eating these words depending on how much he gets paid. If it is something like 4 years/$80 million it will be a fair deal. He will be a high level starter.

Josh Giddey doesn’t have an elite skill or trait whereas Zach had an elite trait. His best skill which his passing is limited in the half court because he’s can’t break down a defense and penetrate. Look at my list of top 15 PGs and tell me who is he going to be better than. If you look at my list you’ll realize that he doesn’t have the scoring ability to keep defenses honest. I’m going with my eyes on this one. He’s a meh player.

You're really going to say that averaging 7 assists and 7 rebounds from the guard position isn't elite? He has no elite skills or traits? All those $50 mill point guards that are considered elite, are most of them averaging over 7 assists? Especially relative to much higher usage. Point guards average 4.2 assists/gm this season. 7 is elite. 7 rebounds is most definitely elite from either guard position. Even more so because he's playing just under 29 minutes. If he got 34-36 minutes, we'd see triple doubles.

Trivia question: who's the last Chicago Bull to average over 7 assists? Derrick Rose in 2011?

He gets those rebounds as a SF. He never plays as a G. He always plays with 2 or 3 smaller guards than him.

[Infinity2152]

I like Giddey. I hope he plays really well. I want him to sign a fair value deal. Which IMO is below $18M. And ideally 2Y. I'm confident he won't "earn" a bigger deal. I know the Bulls won't offer him this, but that's my 2C.

GarPax let Zach find a RFA offer; they matched 80/4, which ended up working out very well for Chicago until AK maxed him. Why does this current FO skip the RFA step? A team would have to be idiotic to offer the money that Chicago will extend Giddey to. It's going to be irritating when we have him on 100/4.

Pat was really overpaid in last year's market, which complicates things. He should be a $10M salary, tops. Had he taken the QO, he'd be lining up for the MLE.

Giddey is an interesting player, but he's not playing better than a very good MLE signing (like Caruso).

To your point, Caruso just signed to 4 yrs/$81 mill and he's 7 year older and injury prone. Giddey's certainly not playing better, but you have to weigh in 7 years younger and healthier too. Caruso's getting paid that to definitely come off the bench. Assessing contract value is not a simple thing. People are really mostly just throwing numbers in here, without an actual idea of what a 22 year old free agent is worth. Or considering the impact of if they're wrong. I promise you nobody thought Jimmy would get that extension from the Warriors. And no, I have no idea what these contracts will look like this summer either.

Kind of have to view Giddey as how you think he's looked at around the league, rather than as a Bulls fan who's been critically analyzing him and wants the best deal we can get. If we want to come up with close guesstimates. Lot of these proposals would be great for the Bulls, but don't think they're realistic views of his open market value.

[PJSteven22]

I wasn't comparing him to All-Stars. Before I searched, I thought it was Kirk Hinrich. You want me to lie about who it is? The point was it's been 14 years, not the name of the player. You're just being petty now.

Like when I compared him to Ball, it was horrible. Or when I say Giddey is similar to Joki and Luka in many respects, you take that literally while ignoring the point. They're all relatively unathletic strong rebounders and passers and weak defenders. Luka is Giddey bad on defense. The main difference is their shooting and developed offensive skillset. That's not saying he's anywhere near their level, it's saying the opposite. But 60% of Luka is still a pretty good player.

I don’t care about an arbitrary number. What’s with you and stars? He’s not even 5% the player Luka is and terrible comparison. He’s a role player like Joe Ingles. How is he going to become a better penetrator? He’s not going to become more athletic all of a sudden. His finishing hasn’t really improved at all. In matter of fact his finishing numbers have decreased since he has been in the league. Name me a guy with below average athlete, ball handler, scorer, and defender all of a sudden become a star or a good starter?

What's with you and Joe Ingles? Talk about terrible comparisons! What about Giddey is remotely like Joe Ingles? Not position, shooting, rebounding, absolutely nothing. Just a random name. What's with YOU and stars? You're the only one focusing on the names instead of the player type. Every time you see a name, you ignore the entire content of the point. there aren't a lot of unathletic 7+ assists, 7+ rebounds poor athletes in the league, so I use the first two I could think of. If you can think of another 7+ assists, 7 rebounds unathletic guy, fell free to mention him. Joe Ingle's ain't it.

Put up with your ridiculous comparisons long enough. Get it through your head. Giddey is not a bench player like Ingles. He will never be a bench player like Ingles, at least not for the next 6-7 years. You may not like it, but that's what it's always been, and what will be. Oh, except for two games in the playoffs. You want to call a guy who's started his whole career a role player, discussion is over. You just won't face reality. In reality he's a starter. And if by some insane reason he ends up on a bench next year (not happening) he still would be at least sixth man. Role player, lmao! The NBA says otherwise.

He is a role player. You just haven’t realized it. He literally only averaged 18 minutes a game in the playoffs. Does that sound like a starter to you? It doesn’t to me. That’s what I meant by he got benched. He got his minutes cut. He got bench in quite a few games in the 4th quarter this year. That doesn’t sound like a smart investment. He’s a slightly better rebounder than ingles and a worse shooter. Answer the question. Name me a guy with below average athlete, ball handler, scorer, turnover prone, and defender all of a sudden become a star or a good starter? You can’t.

Rebounding is more about size and positioning. You don’t need athleticism to be a good rebounder.

[Infinity2152]

I don’t care about an arbitrary number. What’s with you and stars? He’s not even 5% the player Luka is and terrible comparison. He’s a role player like Joe Ingles. How is he going to become a better penetrator? He’s not going to become more athletic all of a sudden. His finishing hasn’t really improved at all. In matter of fact his finishing numbers have decreased since he has been in the league. Name me a guy with below average athlete, ball handler, scorer, and defender all of a sudden become a star or a good starter?

What's with you and Joe Ingles? Talk about terrible comparisons! What about Giddey is remotely like Joe Ingles? Not position, shooting, rebounding, absolutely nothing. Just a random name. What's with YOU and stars? You're the only one focusing on the names instead of the player type. Every time you see a name, you ignore the entire content of the point. there aren't a lot of unathletic 7+ assists, 7+ rebounds poor athletes in the league, so I use the first two I could think of. If you can think of another 7+ assists, 7 rebounds unathletic guy, fell free to mention him. Joe Ingle's ain't it.

Put up with your ridiculous comparisons long enough. Get it through your head. Giddey is not a bench player like Ingles. He will never be a bench player like Ingles, at least not for the next 6-7 years. You may not like it, but that's what it's always been, and what will be. Oh, except for two games in the playoffs. You want to call a guy who's started his whole career a role player, discussion is over. You just won't face reality. In reality he's a starter. And if by some insane reason he ends up on a bench next year (not happening) he still would be at least sixth man. Role player, lmao! The NBA says otherwise.

He is a role player. You just haven’t realized it. He literally only averaged 18 minutes a game in the playoffs. Does that sound like a starter to you? It doesn’t to me. That’s what I meant by he got benched. He got his minutes cut. He got bench in quite a few games in the 4th quarter this year. That doesn’t sound like a smart investment. He’s a slightly better rebounder than ingles and a worse shooter. Name me a guy with below average athlete, ball handler, scorer, turnover prone, and defender all of a sudden become a star or a good starter?

Rebounding is more about size and positioning. You don’t need athleticism to be a good rebounder.

There are a lot of 6'8 guys and taller in the league. Most of them don't average 7 rebounds. Patrick Williams is about the same size, heavier and averages 4. You just don't want to give him any credit for his actual NBA accomplishments. Rather point out how he gets rebounds and how he gets assists and ignore the fact that he gets them.

You keep talking about a miniscule fraction of his career. His last playoffs. He averaged 25 minutes all season. 31 minutes the two seasons before. He's averaging 29 minutes with us. In your mind, role players get 18 minutes, 25 minutes, 31 minutes?

[PJSteven22]

The same Sam Presti who's the GM of the team where he started for 3 years, including the entire season except for TWO playoff games they benched him, which they lost. Don't know how a decision that failed is looked like it was genius on the Thunder's part. They made the playoffs with Giddey starting. They were .500 in that series with Giddey starting, they lost two in a row with him coming off the bench. I wish people would stop acting like that was a smart move. Benching him did not result in more wins, it resulted in a worse winning percentage against the exact same team.

And I'll say clearly that the money we're talking about is not close to star money. It's average starter money. So if he needs to be a star to be a good NBA player, we should be talking about an entirely different pay scale.

If you believe in Presti, he drafted him and started him for 3 years. Is he an idiot now? Are you all better basketball minds than Presti, Mark Daigneault, AK and Billy Donovan? He certainly didn't "fail" in OKC, or they would have benched him WAY before his last two games in the playoffs. Flip your statement about OKC being better than us, he started on a better team, but he's a bench player here?

If you take Presti's side, Presti could have traded him at any point over 3 years. He traded him to get one of the best defenders in the league for a win now team.

Want to talk about leaving points out, how about pointing out he was benched for 2 out of over 200 games he played for the Thunder. That seems a pretty significant point you conveniently left out when talking about his benching. The fact that he's been benched less than 1% of his games. That's statistically insignificant. It does not show a trend or pattern. Coming off the bench for them is not the same anyway, they have SGA at point guard. Argument carries no water, they have an MVP candidate at Giddey's position.

Caruso's not starting either, how much did they just pay him to come off the bench? 4yrs/ $81 mill. Since 15-20 min bench players are only worth MLE. Skip the fact that it's a 7 year older bench player.

They made the playoffs in spite of Giddey. The team performed better when he was off the floor. It’s like Doug stated people don’t play attention to him when he doesn’t have the ball. Presti realized that and fleeced us in a trade.

I don’t think you realize how crippling his weaknesses are to a team. It makes him unplayable at times. He’s literally a liability.

I'll be the first guy to admit, some of you guys see stuff I miss. I freely admit I missed the PWill being an absolute non-starting level player for years. I just don't see Giddey as a liability...and of late, on either end. That said, he's no star.

The other learning I had with PWill is that it is a mistake to sign guys to retain their asset value. It doesn't work more than it does. The truth is that this team needs a #1 option to start to rebuild, and until then, as painful as it sounds, the right move may be to just keep letting good players go (for whatever value we can extract for them) until we have a great player. It doesn't necessarily mean tanking, but it does mean to pump and dump until we found that foundational piece.

I beg to differ. When teams guard you like Tony Allen. You’re a liability.

[Infinity2152]

They made the playoffs in spite of Giddey. The team performed better when he was off the floor. It’s like Doug stated people don’t play attention to him when he doesn’t have the ball. Presti realized that and fleeced us in a trade.

I don’t think you realize how crippling his weaknesses are to a team. It makes him unplayable at times. He’s literally a liability.

I'll be the first guy to admit, some of you guys see stuff I miss. I freely admit I missed the PWill being an absolute non-starting level player for years. I just don't see Giddey as a liability...and of late, on either end. That said, he's no star.

The other learning I had with PWill is that it is a mistake to sign guys to retain their asset value. It doesn't work more than it does. The truth is that this team needs a #1 option to start to rebuild, and until then, as painful as it sounds, the right move may be to just keep letting good players go (for whatever value we can extract for them) until we have a great player. It doesn't necessarily mean tanking, but it does mean to pump and dump until we found that foundational piece.

I beg to differ. When teams guard you like Tony Allen. You’re a liability.

Funny comparison. Tony Allen had a long career and a team won a NBA championship with teams actually guarding Tony Allen. Thyey had enough guys who could score, and used Allen for his strength, defense, rather than focus on his poor soring and shooting.

[PJSteven22]

What's with you and Joe Ingles? Talk about terrible comparisons! What about Giddey is remotely like Joe Ingles? Not position, shooting, rebounding, absolutely nothing. Just a random name. What's with YOU and stars? You're the only one focusing on the names instead of the player type. Every time you see a name, you ignore the entire content of the point. there aren't a lot of unathletic 7+ assists, 7+ rebounds poor athletes in the league, so I use the first two I could think of. If you can think of another 7+ assists, 7 rebounds unathletic guy, fell free to mention him. Joe Ingle's ain't it.

Put up with your ridiculous comparisons long enough. Get it through your head. Giddey is not a bench player like Ingles. He will never be a bench player like Ingles, at least not for the next 6-7 years. You may not like it, but that's what it's always been, and what will be. Oh, except for two games in the playoffs. You want to call a guy who's started his whole career a role player, discussion is over. You just won't face reality. In reality he's a starter. And if by some insane reason he ends up on a bench next year (not happening) he still would be at least sixth man. Role player, lmao! The NBA says otherwise.

He is a role player. You just haven’t realized it. He literally only averaged 18 minutes a game in the playoffs. Does that sound like a starter to you? It doesn’t to me. That’s what I meant by he got benched. He got his minutes cut. He got bench in quite a few games in the 4th quarter this year. That doesn’t sound like a smart investment. He’s a slightly better rebounder than ingles and a worse shooter. Name me a guy with below average athlete, ball handler, scorer, turnover prone, and defender all of a sudden become a star or a good starter?

Rebounding is more about size and positioning. You don’t need athleticism to be a good rebounder.

There are a lot of 6'8 guys and taller in the league. Most of them don't average 7 rebounds. Patrick Williams is about the same size, heavier and averages 4. You just don't want to give him any credit for his actual NBA accomplishments. Rather point out how he gets rebounds and how he gets assists and ignore the fact that he gets them.

You keep talking about a miniscule fraction of his career. His last playoffs. He averaged 25 minutes all season. 31 minutes the two seasons before. He's averaging 29 minutes with us.

I literally said he’s a good rebounder and passer. The fact that he can’t shoot or penetrate or score hurts his playmaker so it negates his passing a bit.

Regardless he got his minutes cut by a good amount in the postseason. I’m harping on the postseason because that’s when team are actually dialed in. If they are guarding him like he’s Tony Allen. He’s hurting the offense. Also relentlessly attacking him on defense. The playoffs are kind of important.

[PJSteven22]

I'll be the first guy to admit, some of you guys see stuff I miss. I freely admit I missed the PWill being an absolute non-starting level player for years. I just don't see Giddey as a liability...and of late, on either end. That said, he's no star.

The other learning I had with PWill is that it is a mistake to sign guys to retain their asset value. It doesn't work more than it does. The truth is that this team needs a #1 option to start to rebuild, and until then, as painful as it sounds, the right move may be to just keep letting good players go (for whatever value we can extract for them) until we have a great player. It doesn't necessarily mean tanking, but it does mean to pump and dump until we found that foundational piece.

I beg to differ. When teams guard you like Tony Allen. You’re a liability.

Funny comparison. Tony Allen had a long career and a team won a NBA championship with teams actually guarding Tony Allen.

Again I was comparing them offensively. That went over your head obviously. He barely played 5 minutes a game in the 08 playoffs. He was basically playing garbage time. Tony was a great defender and they he lasted so long. I remember when he was with Memphis they were playing the Spurs in 2013 WCF. They routinely left him open and he couldn’t make them pay.

[Infinity2152]

He is a role player. You just haven’t realized it. He literally only averaged 18 minutes a game in the playoffs. Does that sound like a starter to you? It doesn’t to me. That’s what I meant by he got benched. He got his minutes cut. He got bench in quite a few games in the 4th quarter this year. That doesn’t sound like a smart investment. He’s a slightly better rebounder than ingles and a worse shooter. Name me a guy with below average athlete, ball handler, scorer, turnover prone, and defender all of a sudden become a star or a good starter?

Rebounding is more about size and positioning. You don’t need athleticism to be a good rebounder.

There are a lot of 6'8 guys and taller in the league. Most of them don't average 7 rebounds. Patrick Williams is about the same size, heavier and averages 4. You just don't want to give him any credit for his actual NBA accomplishments. Rather point out how he gets rebounds and how he gets assists and ignore the fact that he gets them.

You keep talking about a miniscule fraction of his career. His last playoffs. He averaged 25 minutes all season. 31 minutes the two seasons before. He's averaging 29 minutes with us.

I literally said he’s a good rebounder and passer. The fact that he can’t shoot or penetrate or score hurts his playmaker so it negates his passing a bit.

Regardless he got his minutes cut by a good amount in the postseason. I’m harping on the postseason because that’s when team are actually dialed in. If they are guarding him like he’s Tony Allen. He’s hurting the offense. Also relentlessly attacking him on defense. The playoffs are kind of important.

When they benched him in the playoff they lost!! At a higher rat than when they started him. And it's still a small fraction of the year. I don't know where you're getting 18 minutes in the playoffs, didn't he start every game except those last two they lost? Since playoffs are important, they started him most of the playoffs too. I could be wrong. Or are only the last two games of the playoffs in a three year career important? That's representative of how he's viewed? And again, a $18-25 mill player should not be expected to be the best or second best player on the team. On a good team, lot of 4th-5th best players are making that.

My presumption is not that he's a current star, but that he has value and has shown real world value. Consider this: before the season started, he was looking for $30 mill/season. Believe me, that number didn't come from nowhere. His agent gauged the free agency landscape, made some calls, crunched some numbers, and came up with a professional valuation. I don't think he gets that now, or is expecting that. I also don't think his agent was off by so much and he settles for half that.

[WindyCityBorn]

Many of these same people saying Giddey sucks said Zach would never amount to anything. They even said matching the Kings offer all those years back was a horrible mistake. Obviously he never became a franchise talent, but he would have made more than 2 all-star games if our front office didn’t suck. He would have made it this year if we didn’t suck.

Trust your own eyes and opinions. Not the ones that think any young flawed player is worthless and not even worth the MLE. Two years from now people will be eating these words depending on how much he gets paid. If it is something like 4 years/$80 million it will be a fair deal. He will be a high level starter.

Josh Giddey doesn’t have an elite skill or trait whereas Zach had an elite trait. His best skill which his passing is limited in the half court because he’s can’t break down a defense and penetrate. Look at my list of top 15 PGs and tell me who is he going to be better than. If you look at my list you’ll realize that he doesn’t have the scoring ability to keep defenses honest. I’m going with my eyes on this one. He’s a meh player.

You're really going to say that averaging 7 assists and 7 rebounds from the guard position isn't elite? He has no elite skills or traits? All those $50 mill point guards that are considered elite, are most of them averaging over 7 assists? Especially relative to much higher usage. Point guards average 4.2 assists/gm this season. 7 is elite. 7 rebounds is most definitely elite from either guard position. Even more so because he's playing just under 29 minutes. If he got 34-36 minutes, we'd see triple doubles.

Trivia question: who's the last Chicago Bull to average over 7 assists? Derrick Rose in 2011?

Giddey right now is 12/7/7 guy that doesn’t dominate ball. The other players that stuff the stat(really only LeBron,?Joker and Luka) have the offense run completely through them. Obviously Giddey doesn’t have anywhere near their scoring ability, but you are correct he is top 5 passer and an rebounder for his position. It’s worth the investment to see how his scoring and defense progresses. The guy is only 23 are severely lacking in a young prospects. And we probably won’t get a better prospect than him the draft this season.

I would restart with Buzelis, Ayo, Smith and Giddey and move the rest. Coby I’m split on, but I feel like he has had enough opportunities to show what he can do. He just isn’t consistent enough to be a top scoring option after what 6 seasons? And that’s really all he brings to the table.