2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[Jaqua92]

40 points, 8 assists, 7 rebounds, 3 steals, 1 block - in 3 quarters

Denver blowing everyone out lately may hurt Jokic's chances. He takes the fourth quarter off half the time it seems.

Don't worry, Westbrook will come back and it will be a struggle again.

there's another side to that 3 quarters coin tho - it means the team is playing well

for instance we heard the usual haters maligning earlier in the season about Jokic's defense and how it should exclude him from MVP contention or something.in the month of Januray, despite missing starters left and right, the Nuggets had the best Def Rtg in the league. it's not even the middle of Feb but thus far in Feb, the Nuggets have the best Def Rtg in the NBA

obviously these are small samples and they've played a rather soft schedule with many home game to boot, nonetheless they basically have the best Def Rtg in the NBA since X-mas...

They've been the best offense too.

Not sure why people are sleeping on them. Denver shod be on everyone's radar as Boston's biggest threat to repeat.

They have the best player on the planet/the offensive GOAT. They're just getting healthy. They have playoff and championship winning experience. They have a championship mentality and composure. They're an absolute offensive system that doesn't have variance.

They should be and will be the favorites to come out of the West and frankly I don't think OKC can even take them to 7.

They're really really good this year. It'll start hitting the media when they get to the 2 seed.

[Jaqua92]

If OKC spotted the other team 10 points in all their games this season, they would still be 35-17.

Sounds like that defensive is carrying them and giving great margin for error.


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Usually what happens when teams play playoff defense in the regular season. We saw it with Boston, Minnesota, and a few others. Remains to be seen if their offense can step it up when defenses start game planning

[Jaqua92]

If OKC spotted the other team 10 points in all their games this season, they would still be 35-17.

Sounds like that defensive is carrying them and giving great margin for error.


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Actually, it is Shai's offense that carries them. Without Shai on the court their defense gets marginally worse and their offense becomes near worst in the league. Essentially they become Orlando.

They're a +4.5 without him

[OkcSinceSGA]

If OKC spotted the other team 10 points in all their games this season, they would still be 35-17.

Sounds like that defensive is carrying them and giving great margin for error.


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Usually what happens when teams play playoff defense in the regular season. We saw it with Boston, Minnesota, and a few others. Remains to be seen if their offense can step it up when defenses start game planning

Read on Twitter

[scrabbarista]

Don't worry, Westbrook will come back and it will be a struggle again.

there's another side to that 3 quarters coin tho - it means the team is playing well

for instance we heard the usual haters maligning earlier in the season about Jokic's defense and how it should exclude him from MVP contention or something.in the month of Januray, despite missing starters left and right, the Nuggets had the best Def Rtg in the league. it's not even the middle of Feb but thus far in Feb, the Nuggets have the best Def Rtg in the NBA

obviously these are small samples and they've played a rather soft schedule with many home game to boot, nonetheless they basically have the best Def Rtg in the NBA since X-mas...

They've been the best offense too.

Not sure why people are sleeping on them. Denver shod be on everyone's radar as Boston's biggest threat to repeat.

They have the best player on the planet/the offensive GOAT. They're just getting healthy. They have playoff and championship winning experience. They have a championship mentality and composure. They're an absolute offensive system that doesn't have variance.

They should be and will be the favorites to come out of the West and frankly I don't think OKC can even take them to 7.

They're really really good this year. It'll start hitting the media when they get to the 2 seed.

No way.

OKC has the highest differential of all time.

Denver has Westbrook returning to destroy their strategy.

OKC >>>>>> Denver

[RB34]

I mean the impression comes from SGA getting by far the most points from FTs per 100 possessions (Giannis shoots the most FTAs, but he converts a low amount of them so he doesn’t get the FT merchant tag)

That’s because he doesn’t foul bait like SGA

A more objective and curious observer might note that SGA drives a lot more per game than his peers, and might wonder if that could impact attempted free throws.

If anything, he should be shooting more free throws.

And others score more points in the paint than him.

[_NoMas]

Still SGA for me. Denver still doesn’t have many quality wins over the top sides, and Jokic has actually performed worse against the best:

Against the top 4 from each conference - Jokic is at 24ppg, 57%ts, and ‘only’ 8 assists. SGA still at 34ppg on 65%ts against same opponents

[MyTake_1]

Still SGA for me. Denver still doesn’t have many quality wins over the top sides, and Jokic has actually performed worse against the best:

Against the top 4 from each conference - Jokic is at 24ppg, 57%ts, and ‘only’ 8 assists. SGA still at 34ppg on 65%ts against same opponents

What top 4 teams are you talking about?

I remember 2 games vs OKC, 1st was the first game of the season for both teams and OKC blew away Denver.
2nd was 2 weeks later and Denver won, OKC double and triple-teamed Jokic so he had 18 assists and 20 rebounds. Den was without Murray and Gordon, they still beat OKC in a close game.

Denver still has an issue with perimeter defense but they are getting a little better.

[_NoMas]

Still SGA for me. Denver still doesn’t have many quality wins over the top sides, and Jokic has actually performed worse against the best:

Against the top 4 from each conference - Jokic is at 24ppg, 57%ts, and ‘only’ 8 assists. SGA still at 34ppg on 65%ts against same opponents

What top 4 teams are you talking about?

I remember 2 games vs OKC, 1st was the first game of the season for both teams and OKC blew away Denver.
2nd was 2 weeks later and Denver won, OKC double and triple-teamed Jokic so he had 18 assists and 20 rebounds. Den was without Murray and Gordon, they still beat OKC in a close game.

Denver still has an issue with perimeter defense but they are getting a little better.

The teams that are currently the top 4 seeds in each conference

[MyTake_1]

If you are saying OKC, MEM, Cleavland, Boston
Den is 2 - 2 vs Western teams and Jokic missed both games vs MEM
They lost all 3 to eastern teams but Jokic did not play vs Boston and had 2 triple doubles vs Clevland (27/20/11,27/14/13)
Those averages you are referencing are nonsense.

Cherry picking much?

[Optms]

If you are saying OKC, MEM, Cleavland, Boston
Den is 2 - 2 vs Western teams and Jokic missed both games vs MEM
They lost all 3 to eastern teams but Jokic did not play vs Boston and had 2 triple doubles vs Clevland (27/20/11,27/14/13)
Those averages you are referencing are nonsense.

Cherry picking much?

More context - Nuggets were also destroyed by the Knicks at home and on the road. Also lost to the Rockets. That's 2 more top teams they have lost to.

Jokic and the Nuggets are basically feasting on play-in teams or lesser quality. Meanwhile OKC and Shai have legitimately quality wins vs everyone.

[MyTake_1]

If you are saying OKC, MEM, Cleavland, Boston
Den is 2 - 2 vs Western teams and Jokic missed both games vs MEM
They lost all 3 to eastern teams but Jokic did not play vs Boston and had 2 triple doubles vs Clevland (27/20/11,27/14/13)
Those averages you are referencing are nonsense.

Cherry picking much?

More context - Nuggets were also destroyed by the Knicks at home and on the road. Also lost to the Rockets. That's 2 more top teams they have lost to.

Jokic and the Nuggets are basically feasting on play-in teams or lesser quality. Meanwhile OKC and Shai have legitimately quality wins vs everyone.

Knicks killed Denver, true. In that last game, refs called 2 fouls on Jokic in the first min of the game, he hardly played in the first half.
Jokic did not play in Houston game.

Jokic missed 6 games so far, and Denver lost 4 of them.

Denver is 33-15 with Jokic, .6875 with all their injuries.

I don't think Denver is a Championship team as is right now but it is also a matter of matchups.

[AleksandarN]

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SGA big favorite right now in Vegas. His last 10 games or whatever is just idiocy. He's basically scoring more than 1 point per minute most of these games, and in some absurd cases 2-3 points per minute in the biggest games. Anyone who still thinks this isn't the best guard season since MJ.. is nuts. It's just quite a bit better than peak Kobe/Wade/Iverson/CP3/TMac and even tops Harden.

In the last 2 weeks he's gone from .292 WS/48 to a mind boggling .323. Jordan only crossed .320 once and .310 twice (91 and 96). I don't think people realize how special this season is historically. He's also inching back toward a 10 EPM after dropping to 8.7 EPM back to 9.4. It's just INSANITY.

If it for ten games

Jokic
34 Mpg .639 FG .417 3pt .875 FT 10.7 reb 11.4 ast 1.8 stl 0.9 blk 28.9 pts

SGA
33 Mpg .513 FG .373 3Pt .897 FT 3.9 reb 5.3 ast 1.3 stl 0.8 blk 37.3 pts

Jokic faaar better than SGA, by the way if Jokic get ft as SGA get, Jokic ppg turn nearly 35. All we know, Jokic is shooter and never close to paint(is sarcasm).

Jokic is better at filling a box score. Yet nothing shows either player is "way better". It just shows that they are in a league of their own together this year and that SGA will win MVP due to being an equal player with a way better record. I think we are seeing two of the top 5 all time seasons in the same year and you Jokic homers just literally can't fathom that both are legendary seasons in the same tier of greatness. SGA doesn't rebound or pass like Jokic..... but Jokic also is a horrible defender (among league worst paint defender) where as SGA is a great one.

EPM: SGA- 9.4
Jokic-8.8

WS/48: SGA- .323
Jokic- .335

Net rating: SGA-19
Jokic- 12.4

PIE rating NBA: SGA- 20.6
Jokic- 21.2

Jokic is not a horrible defender. You criticize others of being homers and then say something completely false about Jokic. Jokic is not a rim protector period but he is one of best at deflections , defensive rebounding and steals etc. he is not terrible on the defensive end of the ball.

[falcolombardi]

Sounds like that defensive is carrying them and giving great margin for error.


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Actually, it is Shai's offense that carries them. Without Shai on the court their defense gets marginally worse and their offense becomes near worst in the league. Essentially they become Orlando.

They're a +4.5 without him

That only shows how portable shai is as a ceiling raiser. Raising a good team to goat level is a lot more impressive than taking a weak team to very good levels as we all know

Jokic is too heliocentric which makes his teammates struggle when they are not playing jokic ball and forget how to play without him (never forget jokic less nuggets have a better record than shai less nuggets since last season after all)

Is why jokic teams are high floor and low ceiling like they are, his defensive limitations make it hard to build a true elite team around him

[hardenASG13]

If it for ten games

Jokic
34 Mpg .639 FG .417 3pt .875 FT 10.7 reb 11.4 ast 1.8 stl 0.9 blk 28.9 pts

SGA
33 Mpg .513 FG .373 3Pt .897 FT 3.9 reb 5.3 ast 1.3 stl 0.8 blk 37.3 pts

Jokic faaar better than SGA, by the way if Jokic get ft as SGA get, Jokic ppg turn nearly 35. All we know, Jokic is shooter and never close to paint(is sarcasm).

Jokic is better at filling a box score. Yet nothing shows either player is "way better". It just shows that they are in a league of their own together this year and that SGA will win MVP due to being an equal player with a way better record. I think we are seeing two of the top 5 all time seasons in the same year and you Jokic homers just literally can't fathom that both are legendary seasons in the same tier of greatness. SGA doesn't rebound or pass like Jokic..... but Jokic also is a horrible defender (among league worst paint defender) where as SGA is a great one.

EPM: SGA- 9.4
Jokic-8.8

WS/48: SGA- .323
Jokic- .335

Net rating: SGA-19
Jokic- 12.4

PIE rating NBA: SGA- 20.6
Jokic- 21.2

Jokic is not a horrible defender. You criticize others of being homers and then say something completely false about Jokic. Jokic is not a rim protector period but he is one of best at deflections , defensive rebounding and steals etc. he is not terrible on the defensive end of the ball.

Of course he's a good defensive rebounder, he's huge and strong and boxes out well. He rebounds shots to his area extremely well. He doesn't pursue/rebound outside his area very well though. As for the steals, deflections etc......this board has put down things like steals, blocks, deflections, not necessarily making a a guy a good defender for ever (think Allen Iverson, for example), yet that doesn't apply for Jokic?

The last point, as you acknowledge, he's a poor rim/help defender. What is the most important defensive quality for a center/player his size? It's rim protection and help defense.

Also, unrelated, his assists are inflated by how Denver runs their offense. It's just constant DHO or zoom action/cutters off of jokic at the top. He leads the NBA in passes per game by a wide margin and is second in potential assists per game. Of course he gets a lot of assists. He can really fill a box score and is extremely efficient shooting. In the playoffs though, I have and do question his ability to create his own shot and whether he can maintain that efficiency while doing so. It's why, imo, his teams have struggled vs good teams in playoff series, because superstars (which he obviously is) have to create their own shots in a long, competitive playoff series. A good team will take what you like doing away. Combine it with his poor rim protection and help inside (again, the most important defensive quality for a player his size) and it's fair to question if it's problematic against good teams in a playoff series. You questioned it last year immediately when they got down to Minnesota,
in shocking fashion! He'll have to win some of those to disprove it.

[sikma42]

Actually, it is Shai's offense that carries them. Without Shai on the court their defense gets marginally worse and their offense becomes near worst in the league. Essentially they become Orlando.

They're a +4.5 without him

That only shows how portable shai is as a ceiling raiser. Raising a good team to goat level is a lot more impressive than taking a weak team to very good levels as we all know

Jokic is too heliocentric which makes his teammates struggle when they are not playing jokic ball and forget how to play without him (never forget jokic less nuggets have a better record than shai less nuggets since last season after all)

Is why jokic teams are high floor and low ceiling like they are, his defensive limitations make it hard to build a true elite team around him

just switch Jokic for SGA 1 v 1 and you have an elite team around him. They would have won the title last year and be repeating this year.

[Special_Puppy]

Jokic is better at filling a box score. Yet nothing shows either player is "way better". It just shows that they are in a league of their own together this year and that SGA will win MVP due to being an equal player with a way better record. I think we are seeing two of the top 5 all time seasons in the same year and you Jokic homers just literally can't fathom that both are legendary seasons in the same tier of greatness. SGA doesn't rebound or pass like Jokic..... but Jokic also is a horrible defender (among league worst paint defender) where as SGA is a great one.

EPM: SGA- 9.4
Jokic-8.8

WS/48: SGA- .323
Jokic- .335

Net rating: SGA-19
Jokic- 12.4

PIE rating NBA: SGA- 20.6
Jokic- 21.2

Jokic is not a horrible defender. You criticize others of being homers and then say something completely false about Jokic. Jokic is not a rim protector period but he is one of best at deflections , defensive rebounding and steals etc. he is not terrible on the defensive end of the ball.

Of course he's a good defensive rebounder, he's huge and strong and boxes out well. He rebounds shots to his area extremely well. He doesn't pursue/rebound outside his area very well though. As for the steals, deflections etc......this board has put down things like steals, blocks, deflections, not necessarily making a a guy a good defender for ever (think Allen Iverson, for example), yet that doesn't apply for Jokic?

The last point, as you acknowledge, he's a poor rim/help defender. What is the most important defensive quality for a center/player his size? It's rim protection and help defense.

Also, unrelated, his assists are inflated by how Denver runs their offense. It's just constant DHO or zoom action/cutters off of jokic at the top. He leads the NBA in passes per game by a wide margin and is second in potential assists per game. Of course he gets a lot of assists. He can really fill a box score and is extremely efficient shooting. In the playoffs though, I have and do question his ability to create his own shot and whether he can maintain that efficiency while doing so. It's why, imo, his teams have struggled vs good teams in playoff series, because superstars (which he obviously is) have to create their own shots in a long, competitive playoff series. A good team will take what you like doing away. Combine it with his poor rim protection and help inside (again, the most important defensive quality for a player his size) and it's fair to question if it's problematic against good teams in a playoff series. You questioned it last year immediately when they got down to Minnesota,
in shocking fashion! He'll have to win some of those to disprove it.

What playoff series did the Nuggets lose that they “should” have won? The only two I can think of are the 2019 Series against the Trailblazers (where Jokic balled out) and the 2024 series against the Timberwolves that went to 7 even with Murray being very hobbled by injuries

[MyTake_1]

Also, unrelated, his assists are inflated by how Denver runs their offense. It's just constant DHO or zoom action/cutters off of jokic at the top. He leads the NBA in passes per game by a wide margin and is second in potential assists per game. Of course he gets a lot of assists. He can really fill a box score and is extremely efficient shooting. In the playoffs though, I have and do question his ability to create his own shot and whether he can maintain that efficiency while doing so. It's why, imo, his teams have struggled vs good teams in playoff series, because superstars (which he obviously is) have to create their own shots in a long, competitive playoff series. A good team will take what you like doing away. Combine it with his poor rim protection and help inside (again, the most important defensive quality for a player his size) and it's fair to question if it's problematic against good teams in a playoff series. You questioned it last year immediately when they got down to Minnesota, in shocking fashion! He'll have to win some of those to disprove it.

This is the most asinine take on Jokic yet, and that is saying something.

I bet you did not watch Minny series last year, you are talking nonsense, Jokic carried Nuggets he was the only one who showed up, look at the numbers from that series.

He can't create his own shots? You are an absolute idiot to say this, you are talking about a guy that does it better and more effectively than anybody in the league today. Countless takes on this have been around for 5 years from most great players coaches and commentators. And his assists are a question of being able to read game faster than anyone and exploit this to his team's benefit. That's greatness man.

[Special_Puppy]

Actually, it is Shai's offense that carries them. Without Shai on the court their defense gets marginally worse and their offense becomes near worst in the league. Essentially they become Orlando.

They're a +4.5 without him

That only shows how portable shai is as a ceiling raiser. Raising a good team to goat level is a lot more impressive than taking a weak team to very good levels as we all know

Jokic is too heliocentric which makes his teammates struggle when they are not playing jokic ball and forget how to play without him (never forget jokic less nuggets have a better record than shai less nuggets since last season after all)

Is why jokic teams are high floor and low ceiling like they are, his defensive limitations make it hard to build a true elite team around him

I can’t tell if you are being genuine or are parroting bad anti-LeBron arguments to bait people

[_NoMas]

If you are saying OKC, MEM, Cleavland, Boston
Den is 2 - 2 vs Western teams and Jokic missed both games vs MEM
They lost all 3 to eastern teams but Jokic did not play vs Boston and had 2 triple doubles vs Clevland (27/20/11,27/14/13)
Those averages you are referencing are nonsense.

Cherry picking much?

The averages aren’t nonsense. They are cold hard facts lol. The top 4 in each conference… 7 teams in total (but yes he didn’t play against a couple of those teams yet). Fact is in 7 games against teams that are top 4 seeds in their conference, his assists drop, as does his ppg and efficiency (quite significantly).