Bulls vs Pistons 7pm CT Feb. 11 2025

[dougthonus]

Coby has no case for a starter on a good team, unreliable offensively and trash defensively.

I think a better way to state this is that Coby White isn't a top 3 player on a good team. Could he start on a title winning team? Sure. Go look historically at the 5th best starter on a lot of title teams, and Coby is better than a ton of those guys, but that's because a ton of title teams have 3 starts and the 4th/5th guys are very replaceable players.

Whether he's 4th/5th starter or 1st guy off the bench, Coby isn't a needle mover, but he's a solid contributing role player.

[HearshotKDS]

They are going to have to give away the tickets for the rest of the season lol

Still $100+ for 100 section seats on random weeknight games against lottery teams, which is wild. I can get tickets for myself through work fairly regularly but no way for the wife and kid to go if they expect me to pay $300+ for the 3 of us to see a 29 point half.

[Jcool0]

Coby has no case for a starter on a good team, unreliable offensively and trash defensively.

I think a better way to state this is that Coby White isn't a top 3 player on a good team. Could he start on a title winning team? Sure. Go look historically at the 5th best starter on a lot of title teams, and Coby is better than a ton of those guys, but that's because a ton of title teams have 3 starts and the 4th/5th guys are very replaceable players.

Whether he's 4th/5th starter or 1st guy off the bench, Coby isn't a needle mover, but he's a solid contributing role player.

Coby isn't an average NBA player. On a contending team he isn't scoring 18 ppg in the starting lineup and if he isn't scoring he doesn't contribute anything.

[CBS7]

Did Buzelis get hurt? Why just 19 minutes?

[drosestruts]

Wow - glad I missed the game last night.

Such a weird team/organization.

Billy is an average to decent NBA coach (really there's a small handful of coaches that are very good).

And I don't want to be knee-jerky to games like this, but it's just an embarrassing outcome, and it's not our first embarrassing outcome.

I think coaches often serve as the fall guy for flawed roster cause it's easier to move on from a coach than it is to change your roster, but good grief. Just another example of the lack of accountability in the org.

Whether it's being thick-headed about starting Williams over better players, or accepting performances like this, there's just a lack of accountability.

As a player I would be embarrassed, but it doesn't seem like they are. Pros are very comfortable losing these days, and this isn't just a Bulls comment. It applies to the Wizards or Pelicans or Jazz or anyone else.

[Jcool0]

Did Buzelis get hurt? Why just 19 minutes?

Billy being Billy.

[dougthonus]

Coby isn't an average NBA player. On a contending team he isn't scoring 18 ppg in the starting lineup and if he isn't scoring he doesn't contribute anything.

Maybe he doesn't score 18 for a contending team, but he'd still be a dangerous scorer and that still creates options for that team. When you get into the "role player" realm, most of the guys are going to have a specialty. Coby is a good shooter and well rounded at more or less everything else.

He's going to give you some ability to lead a bench offense, some ability to attack the basket (especially if he's a 3rd option on the floor and is attacking against close outs instead of isolation), another capable ball handler / passer, and he tries on defense even if he isn't great, solid rebounder.

He's a role player on a good team, but still probably better than most 5th best players on contending teams.

[drosestruts]

Giddey

Cade

Giddey.

That's a bingo.

Not sure I'm ready to make any big statement on the potential of Cade and the Pistons. But they seem to be plateauing as a .500 team. On this board that's commonly called NBA Hell.

He's certainly putting up more numbers, on a clearly higher usage rate. And starting next year Cade becomes a $40mm player, slowly growing each season till it's legit $50mm per year.

The Pistons won 14 games last year. This is an absolute step up from last season. It's NBA hell if you're a veteran team without any future going forward, it is 100% not the same thing as recent previous years Bulls teams.

This is a funny conversation to have after that butt whooping, but I do think it's an interesting conversation.

The Pistons are having a MUCH better season, no doubt about it.

3 players in the top 6 of win shares and those same 3 players are top 5 minutes are 100% veteran players - Tobias Harris, Malik Beasley, and Tim Hardway Jr (I'm also curious where Schroder nets out in minutes per game going forward for them).

So yes they've drastically improved from their 14 win season to now looking like a team that will finish around .500. Largely it seems on the backs of the veteran players they added to the roster.

Again, the Bulls jumped from 22 wins to 31 wins to 46 wins after adding veterans like Vuc, DeRozan, etc. and again - many here classified this as NBA Hell. We had young players on the roster during this time, same as the Pistons.


Pistons top 5 in total minutes

2023-24:
Ivey
Cunningham
Duren
Thompson
Stewart


2024-25
Cunningham
Harris
Basley
Hardway
Duren

It's clear to me that the Pistons growth can be in large part attributed to the addition and playing time of veteran players, and that their jump in wins has not come on the backs of youth development.

I'm curious what Detroit looks like as these veteran players move on, and their young players start making significant money that eats up large portions of their cap preventing them from adding veterans like these.

[Jcool0]

Coby isn't an average NBA player. On a contending team he isn't scoring 18 ppg in the starting lineup and if he isn't scoring he doesn't contribute anything.

Maybe he doesn't score 18 for a contending team, but he'd still be a dangerous scorer and that still creates options for that team. When you get into the "role player" realm, most of the guys are going to have a specialty. Coby is a good shooter and well rounded at more or less everything else.

He's going to give you some ability to lead a bench offense, some ability to attack the basket (especially if he's a 3rd option on the floor and is attacking against close outs instead of isolation), another capable ball handler / passer, and he tries on defense even if he isn't great, solid rebounder.

He's a role player on a good team, but still probably better than most 5th best players on contending teams.

He doesn't have great size for his position, not great basketball iq and plays little defense and can be a streaky shooter. That screams 7th man role.

[kodo]

It set a record as the worst halftime beating of the Chicago Bulls by Detroit in history. The last halftime beating was "only" 34 points...and that was in 1969!

This was a historic loss. The 8-9 good guys strategy all coming together.

[jnrjr79]

My main takeaway from last night's game is that I'm happy about it. I wanted the Bulls to tank. This is it. I also want them to be disabused of the notion that they already have in place much of a core to build around.

I feel like I can't ask for a tank and then get mad about blowouts.

[kodo]

WTF is up with Ayo. He just looks like he doesn't care, which is so dumb because he has a chance to cement a starting role if he played up to his past level.

I don't think he knows what his role is, and I don't either. He's always on the floor with other PGs like Coby, Giddey, Lonzo. He's a 3rd option PG most of the time. This game Billy's first player off the bench was, yep Tre Jones. Another dribble around PG.

I think if he was in the NFL Donovan would put 10 quarterbacks out there and a receiver and wonder why he's not getting 10x yards.

[MrSparkle]

My main takeaway from last night's game is that I'm happy about it. I wanted the Bulls to tank. This is it. I also want them to be disabused of the notion that they already have in place much of a core to build around.

I feel like I can't ask for a tank and then get mad about blowouts.

Yeah. If anything, this should’ve been happening in October. Now we just have way higher odds of landing 7-10 than we do 1-6. Which in this draft (if not all drafts), appears to be a mistake. Had we started the season aiming for the bottom of the barrel, we’d have a whopping 52% chance of top-4, instead of 26%. These new odds create more lucky breaks, but in the end, tanking aggressively and deliberately still works (which is why it’s stupid, but alas).

AK acquired a core of three #7 picks. The lone remaining pick is still an unreliable core member, 6y later. Drafting one #7 per losing season is an exhaustingly slow and uncertain method of rebuilding.

Went against the logical grain as long as possible. The only relief is Vuc’s on the roster- the master tank commander. The best worst-player-ever.

Sunk costs everywhere in the Bulls’ portfolio. Very impressive, actually. Hard to do, considering what he started with and acquired. You could’ve let a video game GM sim run and probably come out better.

[MrSparkle]

WTF is up with Ayo. He just looks like he doesn't care, which is so dumb because he has a chance to cement a starting role if he played up to his past level.

I don't think he knows what his role is, and I don't either. He's always on the floor with other PGs like Coby, Giddey, Lonzo. He's a 3rd option PG most of the time. This game Billy's first player off the bench was, yep Tre Jones. Another dribble around PG.

I think if he was in the NFL Donovan would put 10 quarterbacks out there and a receiver and wonder why he's not getting 10x yards.

Yeah, the guards look confused. We’re getting slaughtered on the glass and mismatches. Billy is playing even smaller than before, thanks to the Tre and Huerter additions.

[Chi town]

Coby has no case for a starter on a good team, unreliable offensively and trash defensively.

I think a better way to state this is that Coby White isn't a top 3 player on a good team. Could he start on a title winning team? Sure. Go look historically at the 5th best starter on a lot of title teams, and Coby is better than a ton of those guys, but that's because a ton of title teams have 3 starts and the 4th/5th guys are very replaceable players.

Whether he's 4th/5th starter or 1st guy off the bench, Coby isn't a needle mover, but he's a solid contributing role player.

Yep. You put a stud defensive C with him and he doesn’t look nearly as bad on D.

I think Coby could be prettty darn good on a team like the Magic with two first options and stellar D.

[Chi town]

How many more 40pt losses before AK and Billy start feeling the hot seat?

[cocktailswith_2short]

I think billy is gone day after the season . Ak ain't going anywhere .

[jnrjr79]

My main takeaway from last night's game is that I'm happy about it. I wanted the Bulls to tank. This is it. I also want them to be disabused of the notion that they already have in place much of a core to build around.

I feel like I can't ask for a tank and then get mad about blowouts.

Yeah. If anything, this should’ve been happening in October. Now we just have way higher odds of landing 7-10 than we do 1-6. Which in this draft (if not all drafts), appears to be a mistake. Had we started the season aiming for the bottom of the barrel, we’d have a whopping 52% chance of top-4, instead of 26%. These new odds create more lucky breaks, but in the end, tanking aggressively and deliberately still works (which is why it’s stupid, but alas).

AK acquired a core of three #7 picks. The lone remaining pick is still an unreliable core member, 6y later. Drafting one #7 per losing season is an exhaustingly slow and uncertain method of rebuilding.

Went against the logical grain as long as possible. The only relief is Vuc’s on the roster- the master tank commander. The best worst-player-ever.

Sunk costs everywhere in the Bulls’ portfolio. Very impressive, actually. Hard to do, considering what he started with and acquired. You could’ve let a video game GM sim run and probably come out better.

Yeah, the Bulls are in pretty bad shape. I'm not sure how much more they could have done before the season to tank, because I think Zach had to demonstrate his health and quality of play before he could be traded (but there are mistakes further back in the past that really hurt them). The Pat Williams extension hurts, but it didn't hurt the tank, since he sucks.

Though I'm angry about AK's past performance, all you can do now is stop the bleeding. He's gotten control back of their 1sts, which is a start. But if KC's reporting that he doesn't want to deal Coby unless he gets an overwhelming offer is true, that's a problem.

The Bulls have Matas - that's a start. They have plenty of other guys that can have roles on a good team, but who are going to be asked to do too much here.

They should be bad enough to lose a lot for the remainder of the season. You really have to hope Philly doesn't elect to pack it in. From there, you just have to hope the lotto balls come out in your favor. This offseason, they have to unload more guys.

It can be done, but it won't be easy given how late they were to change course. AK realizing changes have to be made is positive, but obviously he's done nothing to earn any trust that he'll have the right vision forward. This offseason would be a very natural inflection point to can him and hire someone else to handle the rebuild, but I have very little hope of that.

[Lexluthor]

My main takeaway from last night's game is that I'm happy about it. I wanted the Bulls to tank. This is it. I also want them to be disabused of the notion that they already have in place much of a core to build around.

I feel like I can't ask for a tank and then get mad about blowouts.

Yeah. If anything, this should’ve been happening in October. Now we just have way higher odds of landing 7-10 than we do 1-6. Which in this draft (if not all drafts), appears to be a mistake. Had we started the season aiming for the bottom of the barrel, we’d have a whopping 52% chance of top-4, instead of 26%. These new odds create more lucky breaks, but in the end, tanking aggressively and deliberately still works (which is why it’s stupid, but alas).

AK acquired a core of three #7 picks. The lone remaining pick is still an unreliable core member, 6y later. Drafting one #7 per losing season is an exhaustingly slow and uncertain method of rebuilding.

Went against the logical grain as long as possible. The only relief is Vuc’s on the roster- the master tank commander. The best worst-player-ever.

Sunk costs everywhere in the Bulls’ portfolio. Very impressive, actually. Hard to do, considering what he started with and acquired. You could’ve let a video game GM sim run and probably come out better.

Yeah, the Bulls are in pretty bad shape. I'm not sure how much more they could have done before the season to tank, because I think Zach had to demonstrate his health and quality of play before he could be traded (but there are mistakes further back in the past that really hurt them). The Pat Williams extension hurts, but it didn't hurt the tank, since he sucks.

Though I'm angry about AK's past performance, all you can do now is stop the bleeding. He's gotten control back of their 1sts, which is a start. But if KC's reporting that he doesn't want to deal Coby unless he gets an overwhelming offer is true, that's a problem.

The Bulls have Matas - that's a start. They have plenty of other guys that can have roles on a good team, but who are going to be asked to do too much here.

They should be bad enough to lose a lot for the remainder of the season. You really have to hope Philly doesn't elect to pack it in. From there, you just have to hope the lotto balls come out in your favor. This offseason, they have to unload more guys.

It can be done, but it won't be easy given how late they were to change course. AK realizing changes have to be made is positive, but obviously he's done nothing to earn any trust that he'll have the right vision forward. This offseason would be a very natural inflection point to can him and hire someone else to handle the rebuild, but I have very little hope of that.

How come Ayo always gets a pass on this board ? He is just as mediocre as Coby and his defense is overrated . He got torched last night .

[Stratmaster]

Coby has no case for a starter on a good team, unreliable offensively and trash defensively.

I think a better way to state this is that Coby White isn't a top 3 player on a good team. Could he start on a title winning team? Sure. Go look historically at the 5th best starter on a lot of title teams, and Coby is better than a ton of those guys, but that's because a ton of title teams have 3 starts and the 4th/5th guys are very replaceable players.

Whether he's 4th/5th starter or 1st guy off the bench, Coby isn't a needle mover, but he's a solid contributing role player.

his talents are perfect for a 6th man. Keith Bogans wasn't a better player than Coby or good enough to be a difference maker; but he was a better fit in the starting lineup with the good players.

Coby breaks the offense and breaks the game. Sometimes in a great way. Sometimes in a negative way. It is why he should never be in a starting lineup.