Shams: BI extension (3 Years $120M) **Presser at 5:15pm** Link Pg. 24

[ontnut]

Masai's lost his touch.

Should've offered him no more than $60M/3 years.

So...pay him less than the Dillon Brooks contract?

[nikster]

I have had to say this many times, so I'll say it again.

The purpose of the pick isn't just getting a high level player, it is getting a high level player that you have under strict contract control for the better part of a decade. It is having a high impact player on a contract making less than 15mil a year. That kind of contract gives you flexibility to add players like BI and get good teams built. But you don't go out and get the BI player before you have the other parts of the car as in the above analogy.

And so what if the opportunities don't appear when you want them to, whatever happened to Masai and his endless patience? You add a top 5 pick to the roster w/o BI and you still have a solid core to move forward with and grow. This is just another instance of putting the cart before the horse. I'm glad the cost for acquiring BI was low, but as I already stated, the issue is not the asset cost, or even the player, but rather the timing. The KD trade would've been bad cause we would have gutted our roster and not have enough players to field a competitive team. The BI trade is bad because we don't have a good enough team to add him to, adding BI is supposed to be the cherry on the sundae move, not the first 2 scoops of vanilla.

A lot of it seems circumstantial, we have contract control for almost a decade, but also a lot of players need to be developed for almost a decade. We could be just developing players for other teams. Powell, Siakam and Derozan all weren’t at their peaks in Toronto. RJ didn’t work out for the Knicks, Ingram didn’t work out for the Lakers.

Also, if BI gets healthy, he’s our best player. He’s a part of the sundae, not the cherry. The risk is essentially his health. This would be the equivalent of trading for Lowry.

Lowry was 26, not an established player and supposedly a headcase. Ingram is 27, an established player, but injury prone.

Both were traded for mid-level picks.

Yeah they weren't at their peaks on their respective teams because they were traded, that's a pretty weird argument to make. Norm was traded for us to get younger, Siakam was traded cause he wasn't good enough, Derozan was the same reason + for an upgrade, RJ was traded for a better player + asset consolidation, Ingram was traded for a better player. These are all really bad examples. They also prove my point, the fact that all of them were under salary control by their team is what allowed them to be traded and return what they did. They kept the players for years (only a couple with BI), they got better, then they were traded, this is literally what I'm advocating for. None of these players aside from BI were moved on their 1st contracts, they were drafted, improved, and moved for better or different situations. Guess what you can't do that with, yeah, I'll let you figure that one out.

And if your whole argument is based off "if" BI gets healthy, it has already failed. He hasn't been healthy for 8 years straight, this isn't just a "well maybe he won't" it's practically guaranteed. This isn't at all like the Lowry situation, a headcase can usually be remedied with a different situation/leadership, injuries don't just magically go away.

Ingram making less than Siakam is a real bonus.

Siakam playing full seasons is also a real bonus.

Read on Twitter

Lamelo - Injury prone and also being paid 9mil AAV
Luka - Has literally been doing this since his first year in the league and has earned every penny
Lebron - Do I really need to say anything?
Jokic - Best player in the league and barely misses 10 games a season
Giannis - FMVP/MVP/DPOY etc. and his lowest amount of games played in a season match Ingrams highest played in the last 8 years.

Almost like there is some context missing.

Read on Twitter

Thought it was going to be one of these lol

It basically is. Everyone on that list is either WAY better, isn't chronically injured (minus Lamelo) and justifies their salary, or in the case of Lamelo, makes a quarter of what Ingram does.

But look how long it took for them to get to their peaks. Siakam was peaking with us at 28 in his 7th season. Powell took a leap in year 5 at 26 years old. Derozan had his best season with us year 8. 2 of those guys were drafted as older rookies, and they all continued to improve even after they were traded.

Why cant Ingram, RJ or quick be in a similar boat? Continue to improve and either keep them if they fit or flip them for future assets or another opportunity. For Quick and RJ we essentialy just skipped the first contract years where players are generally less productive anyway. Ingram we are getting right as he should be entering his best years.

[TerryTate]

I feel like there should have been more polls options.
I don't think it's "GREAT" deal, I think it's not horrible, but decent.

[Consequence]

From Fischer's email today about the extension/Raptors moves in general:

If that $40 million average annual value sounds familiar, that's likely because it's the precise price range we've previously written that New Orleans had established as its ceiling for Ingram last summer.

League sources tell the The Stein Line that Ingram, in fact, passed on a four-year, $160 million deal from the Pelicans that would have kept him in New Orleans, meaning there was some serious money left on the proverbial table in his quest for more.

We have since learned, for example, that the Raptors held talks with the Hawks about acquiring De'Andre Hunter, who wound up being traded to Cleveland. Toronto and Atlanta have discussed Hunter trades going as far back as the 2023 NBA Draft, sources said, when the Hawks were also among the teams most aggressively pursuing Siakam. Sources say that the Cavaliers viewed the Raptors as their foremost threat to landing Hunter while also being cognizant that the Pelicans and Hawks were discussing frameworks that could have sent Ingram to Atlanta and Hunter to New Orleans.

Pinpointing Barrett's standing is trickier. The Canadian has two more seasons left on his current contract after this one at $27.7 million in 2025-26 and then $29.6 million in 2026-27. And before that final year arrives, Toronto will almost certainly be holding contract extension talks with Gradey Dick, who the Raptors have held in as high regard as anyone in the building who doesn't have BARNES stitched into the back of his jersey. Don't forget that the Raptors also drafted Ja'Kobe Walter, another scoring guard, with the No. 19 pick last June.

All of that makes Barrett someone who has to be monitored as a potential trade candidate once the offseason arrives. The modern NBA is now dominated by contract extensions and players getting traded to the team that is willing to give them one ... with surrounding players occasionally rendered casualties along the way.

[sidsid]

https://sports.yahoo.com/the-raptors-are-giving-brandon-ingram-a-120-million-extension-but-do-they-have-a-plan-212600711.html

Encapsulates a bit of the bigger picture issues with BI. Although he is more of a 3pt shooter, he functionally very much operates like DeRozan. The Kings fit for DeMar was always a question for him because of the needs of a hub/motion offense not meshing with his game. And this is a much bigger problem with Jak and our lack of spacing comparatively. Feeding into his inefficiencies.

Credit to RJ for adapting to the style (which suits him), but BI has never shown that flexibility. The offseason and the pick can change the dynamics a lot. But he's going to have to buy in and it may not even matter if the Jak spacing problem isn't solved.

[Shakril]

Freak injuries aside..IQ is not super injured.
This season he received a fairly freak injury .. but has a played close to 72 games a season.

RBJ averaged 66
Barnes averages 70
Poeltl averaged 67
BI averaged 60.. which would be your first below average of the crew.


Average player misses 17 games a year(65 games played). Team is not a ironman team but oft injuries is a tad dramatic.

The only reason, why Poeltl, Barnes and RJ missed so many games the last 2 seasons is simply cause there was no need to rush them back. If we were in the Playoff right now, you bet Poeltl & RJ would be playing right now.

Was going to say as much but hard to control for it. Overall same could be said for the average NBA player.

The point i wnated to make is, that BI is often injured and actually did came back playing hurt. While with us the last 2 years, it was not necessary to let someone play hurt.

[Dalek]

From Fischer's email today about the extension/Raptors moves in general:

If that $40 million average annual value sounds familiar, that's likely because it's the precise price range we've previously written that New Orleans had established as its ceiling for Ingram last summer.

League sources tell the The Stein Line that Ingram, in fact, passed on a four-year, $160 million deal from the Pelicans that would have kept him in New Orleans, meaning there was some serious money left on the proverbial table in his quest for more.

We have since learned, for example, that the Raptors held talks with the Hawks about acquiring De'Andre Hunter, who wound up being traded to Cleveland. Toronto and Atlanta have discussed Hunter trades going as far back as the 2023 NBA Draft, sources said, when the Hawks were also among the teams most aggressively pursuing Siakam. Sources say that the Cavaliers viewed the Raptors as their foremost threat to landing Hunter while also being cognizant that the Pelicans and Hawks were discussing frameworks that could have sent Ingram to Atlanta and Hunter to New Orleans.

Pinpointing Barrett's standing is trickier. The Canadian has two more seasons left on his current contract after this one at $27.7 million in 2025-26 and then $29.6 million in 2026-27. And before that final year arrives, Toronto will almost certainly be holding contract extension talks with Gradey Dick, who the Raptors have held in as high regard as anyone in the building who doesn't have BARNES stitched into the back of his jersey. Don't forget that the Raptors also drafted Ja'Kobe Walter, another scoring guard, with the No. 19 pick last June.

All of that makes Barrett someone who has to be monitored as a potential trade candidate once the offseason arrives. The modern NBA is now dominated by contract extensions and players getting traded to the team that is willing to give them one ... with surrounding players occasionally rendered casualties along the way.

I was just going to post about the Hawks/Raps decisions, so this is good context about our previous pursuit of Hunter. The Hawks were only luke warm on BI which is interesting. It almost feels like we were the only true bidder for BI:

The Hawks decided not to make a big offer for BI according to Fischer and weren't even going to extend BI right away:

- "Sources say that the Cavaliers viewed the Raptors as their foremost threat to landing Hunter while also being cognizant that the Pelicans and Hawks were discussing frameworks that could have sent Ingram to Atlanta and Hunter to New Orleans.

In any potential Ingram-to-Atlanta swap, Clint Capela would have headed to the Pelicans, sources said. Yet it was frequently stressed in the build-up to the deadline that the Hawks, unlike the Raptors, were not eager to sign Ingram to an immediate extension. Atlanta, you see, had been exploring Hunter trade possibilities for some time and seemingly regarded Ingram as an intriguing response to losing him that could have provided some interesting optionality this summer."

-Grabbed this from X

Our package was significantly better so no question why NOP took it. But, the Hawks ended up trading DeAndre Hunter for 3 seconds and 2 swaps and couple decent vets in LeVert and Niang.

This is the same Hunter we would have traded for in last year's Siakam deal. Who of course has been healthier and played well this season for the Hawks, but many here found him to be a negative asset two offseasons ago.

It feels like the Hawk playbook should have been ours. We should have been trading for future assets like what the Hawks got, but instead we took a huge swing for BI about one year after the Siakam trade. Hopefully, things work out well.

[phanman]

Just because you disagree, doesn't make it negative. He has zero career accolades aside from making an all star game 6 years ago. No all nba selections, no playoff series wins, no mvp votes, no nothing. His biggest accomplishment is MIP/AS 6 seasons ago, that's not anything to celebrate. He's been in the league for 9 years, and has missed a full third of his games in the last 8 years. DD and Lowry had 50 win teams to their name, DD had multiple AS selections, all NBA 2nd and 3rd team, Siakam had multiple AS selections and all NBA, and duh a championship. Ingram is no more a first option than DD or Siakam were, 6 playoff games don't change that, I will trust the 495 regular season games instead.

Just because it doesn't mesh your opinion, it doesn't make it negative, reality doesn't care about how you feel, it exists regardless.

Just read what you wrote, you say your not being negative yet proceed to list off accolades that he hasn't achieved yet look over the two individual awards he actually won. He's never had the luxury that DeMar, Lowry and Pascal had of having another reliable all-star level teammate as the Pelicans have been a mess in regards to personnel and any type of momentum was always derailed by his or Zion's availability.

I never said that Brandon is coming in as some sort of savior for the franchise but he's clearly accomplished something to be worthy of getting paid near max money. 23pts, 5.5reb, 5.2ast on 57.6%TS (47/37/85) isn't just something you can roll out of bed doing. He is still the same high upside player that was drafted 2nd overall pick and given his offensive game, he projects to be a better primary scoring option than the Toronto version of DeMar and Pascal.

[TGM]

Someone should dig up the old OG and Demar contract extensions. I remember when OG signed that three year 51 extension, people were screaming for blood. The contract at the time seemed expensive, but a year later everyone was like we should have locked him down for 5 years and not gave him a player option. The cap is moving up. 40 million is like the old 20-25 million. The price is not bad for the talent Ingram is. The contract is also very well hedged for both parties. If Ingram decides to opt out after two years that probably means he was balling out of his mind and Raps are winning. At that time just a lot easier for you to discuss a extension with him

[ItsDanger]

Thought it'd be worse. Could be gone after 2 seasons. Both Ingram and Scottie are best when operating in the midrange. Combine them with non shooting Poeltl, complicates the offensive spacing.

[TGM]

From Fischer's email today about the extension/Raptors moves in general:

If that $40 million average annual value sounds familiar, that's likely because it's the precise price range we've previously written that New Orleans had established as its ceiling for Ingram last summer.

League sources tell the The Stein Line that Ingram, in fact, passed on a four-year, $160 million deal from the Pelicans that would have kept him in New Orleans, meaning there was some serious money left on the proverbial table in his quest for more.

We have since learned, for example, that the Raptors held talks with the Hawks about acquiring De'Andre Hunter, who wound up being traded to Cleveland. Toronto and Atlanta have discussed Hunter trades going as far back as the 2023 NBA Draft, sources said, when the Hawks were also among the teams most aggressively pursuing Siakam. Sources say that the Cavaliers viewed the Raptors as their foremost threat to landing Hunter while also being cognizant that the Pelicans and Hawks were discussing frameworks that could have sent Ingram to Atlanta and Hunter to New Orleans.

Pinpointing Barrett's standing is trickier. The Canadian has two more seasons left on his current contract after this one at $27.7 million in 2025-26 and then $29.6 million in 2026-27. And before that final year arrives, Toronto will almost certainly be holding contract extension talks with Gradey Dick, who the Raptors have held in as high regard as anyone in the building who doesn't have BARNES stitched into the back of his jersey. Don't forget that the Raptors also drafted Ja'Kobe Walter, another scoring guard, with the No. 19 pick last June.

All of that makes Barrett someone who has to be monitored as a potential trade candidate once the offseason arrives. The modern NBA is now dominated by contract extensions and players getting traded to the team that is willing to give them one ... with surrounding players occasionally rendered casualties along the way.

I was just going to post about the Hawks/Raps decisions, so this is good context about our previous pursuit of Hunter. The Hawks were only luke warm on BI which is interesting. It almost feels like we were the only true bidder for BI:

The Hawks decided not to make a big offer for BI according to Fischer and weren't even going to extend BI right away:

- "Sources say that the Cavaliers viewed the Raptors as their foremost threat to landing Hunter while also being cognizant that the Pelicans and Hawks were discussing frameworks that could have sent Ingram to Atlanta and Hunter to New Orleans.

In any potential Ingram-to-Atlanta swap, Clint Capela would have headed to the Pelicans, sources said. Yet it was frequently stressed in the build-up to the deadline that the Hawks, unlike the Raptors, were not eager to sign Ingram to an immediate extension. Atlanta, you see, had been exploring Hunter trade possibilities for some time and seemingly regarded Ingram as an intriguing response to losing him that could have provided some interesting optionality this summer."

-Grabbed this from X

Our package was significantly better so no question why NOP took it. But, the Hawks ended up trading DeAndre Hunter for 3 seconds and 2 swaps and couple decent vets in LeVert and Niang.

This is the same Hunter we would have traded for in last year's Siakam deal. Who of course has been healthier and played well this season for the Hawks, but many here found him to be a negative asset two offseasons ago.

It feels like the Hawk playbook should have been ours. We should have been trading for future assets like what the Hawks got, but instead we took a huge swing for BI about one year after the Siakam trade. Hopefully, things work out well.

Hunter’s injuries are the same as BI. However, BI has a way higher ceiling, also we needed an alpha go to scorer. Hunter would have been like getting a poor man Pascal that can’t pass and rebound as well. He looks better cause of Trae and Jalen taking a lot of heat from opposing defenders.

Also Lavert and Niang are exactly the type of guys we don’t need to add more of on long contracts. We are in consolidation phase. We don’t need more bench rotation guys. The league is flushed with those players hence so many are struggling to get contracts. We also have a bunch of rookies that fit that mold.

[mtcan]

I wonder if the trainers and medical staff can use this extended time off to take a good look at BI's body and work with him to improve his durability.

[Pointgod]

From Fischer's email today about the extension/Raptors moves in general:

If that $40 million average annual value sounds familiar, that's likely because it's the precise price range we've previously written that New Orleans had established as its ceiling for Ingram last summer.

League sources tell the The Stein Line that Ingram, in fact, passed on a four-year, $160 million deal from the Pelicans that would have kept him in New Orleans, meaning there was some serious money left on the proverbial table in his quest for more.

We have since learned, for example, that the Raptors held talks with the Hawks about acquiring De'Andre Hunter, who wound up being traded to Cleveland. Toronto and Atlanta have discussed Hunter trades going as far back as the 2023 NBA Draft, sources said, when the Hawks were also among the teams most aggressively pursuing Siakam. Sources say that the Cavaliers viewed the Raptors as their foremost threat to landing Hunter while also being cognizant that the Pelicans and Hawks were discussing frameworks that could have sent Ingram to Atlanta and Hunter to New Orleans.

Pinpointing Barrett's standing is trickier. The Canadian has two more seasons left on his current contract after this one at $27.7 million in 2025-26 and then $29.6 million in 2026-27. And before that final year arrives, Toronto will almost certainly be holding contract extension talks with Gradey Dick, who the Raptors have held in as high regard as anyone in the building who doesn't have BARNES stitched into the back of his jersey. Don't forget that the Raptors also drafted Ja'Kobe Walter, another scoring guard, with the No. 19 pick last June.

All of that makes Barrett someone who has to be monitored as a potential trade candidate once the offseason arrives. The modern NBA is now dominated by contract extensions and players getting traded to the team that is willing to give them one ... with surrounding players occasionally rendered casualties along the way.

So it’s not like the Raptors got some great deal on Ingram it’s the same deal he could have gotten with the Pelicans. Looks like we got the market price on the extension.

[djsunyc]

Watch on YouTube

[LoveMyRaps]

Introductory presser today btw.

[Jadoogar]

Wow - Ingram gets the Vanvleet contract.

Fred got more.

with a team option instead of a player option

[Appostis]

The only reason, why Poeltl, Barnes and RJ missed so many games the last 2 seasons is simply cause there was no need to rush them back. If we were in the Playoff right now, you bet Poeltl & RJ would be playing right now.

Was going to say as much but hard to control for it. Overall same could be said for the average NBA player.

The point i wnated to make is, that BI is often injured and actually did came back playing hurt. While with us the last 2 years, it was not necessary to let someone play hurt.

And my point was this is the norm across the league.

[Scase]

But look how long it took for them to get to their peaks. Siakam was peaking with us at 28 in his 7th season. Powell took a leap in year 5 at 26 years old. Derozan had his best season with us year 8. 2 of those guys were drafted as older rookies, and they all continued to improve even after they were traded.

Why cant Ingram, RJ or quick be in a similar boat? Continue to improve and either keep them if they fit or flip them for future assets or another opportunity. For Quick and RJ we essentialy just skipped the first contract years where players are generally less productive anyway. Ingram we are getting right as he should be entering his best years.

In no way am I saying they can't improve, I just always view this stuff out from the lens of probabilities.

BI is going to be 28 years old and in his 10th year, any noticeable improvement is probably unlikely, he's already a good player and his biggest issue is health, so if anything his improvement will come from playing more games, which is not very likely, or being put in a better system like we have for RJ.

RJ by the nature of being younger has more room for growth, but he'll also be headed into his 7th year next year, so reasonably speaking it's also not going to be super common, or any substantial improvement.

But these guys were also drafted 2nd and 3rd overall, they aren't like Norm, or Siakam, or IQ. They were guys that have had a teams entire focus being on developing them, so guys like BI/RJ should be further ahead and with less room for growth as they age.

You also need to understand that players like Siakam/Norm are exceptions, not the rule. Siakam also wasn't playing ball his entire life, so there is more to catch up on, meaning he has more room for growth. There are tons of variables that need to be taken into account, but typically you aren't seeing guys make massive improvements when they are 6/7/8/9/10 years into their careers. The contract BI got for instance was not a contract like Scottie got, BI is a known quantity, Scottie is being paid for future presumed improvement. BI meanwhile has had pretty much the same performance +/- some stats the last 6 years, he can definitely improve further and maybe the change of scenery helps, but overall, they will be slight, if any.

And all of that is fine, but is also a rather large limiting factor on the ceiling of a team. You look at a team like ORL where their star is 22 years old, and he's already playing very well, yeah expecting him to get even better is a fair assumption. Might never happen, but it's a very realistic possibility. Paolo literally just turned 22 in November, and he hasn't even played 200 career games, the chances he will improve substantially are pretty high. BI being 500 games in 28 at the start of next season, and in his 10th year? It is not a reasonable assumption there will be a substantial jump.

Paolo having that room for growth directly impacts how much further and better their team can get. So all things equal 2 teams playing at say a 40 win pace, one with the lead guy being 22 and in his 3rd year, and another being 28 in his 10th year, yeah the former is probably gonna be the better team moving forward.

My biggest gripe is that despite what some people want to say, we are no longer a young team. We have a bunch of younger players for sure, but they are all pretty much late seconds, or even undrafted players. Those statistically speaking do not amount to much, and virtually never amount to a good enough player to alter the trajectory of a franchise. That is typically reserved for your starting unit, and ours isn't exactly a bunch of newborns.

I don't put a lot of stock in experienced players taking large leaps, because it doesn't usually happen, and it's also why I'm so pro draft.

[MiamiSPX]

Introductory presser today btw.

I'd be shocked if one of these clowns didn't ask him about (1) the weather, and (2) the Leafs.

[GLF]

Watch on YouTube

Love Samson. He does such a great job with these